Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Blower'sGate]

No, they don't. Possible means something that is capable of happening. Likely means something that has a high chance of happening. So, it's possible I may get pregnant tonight, but it's likely I won't.

Would you have something to tell me?

That's a neat idea! BG, you said you'd gone surfing through the archives - did you find a page that had questions on (just to give a rough idea of where to look)? That way we could use those questions as a basis and maybe some of them might even apply to the current ep. For instance, when analysing, you look at what's happening now, things int he past that could have affected the present actions, and how the present actions may affect the future.

Yeah I came across a few yesterday, I shall look right away Great idea from wiz, I've actually been thinking about it too. *runs to the archives*

So when they caught up on Earth just prior to them leaving, they hooked up one night... but it was just one night. Kinda like 'What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas' except with them it's 'What happens on Earth stays on Earth'

Huhuhu! LMAO! So true.

[SallyLizzie]

Nice comparison, BG.

Okay, we've talked a lot recently about John and Elizabeth and how the have affected each other, so until I have time to come up with episodic questions, I'm posing this one:

How have others affected John and Elizabeth's feeling towards each other - both professional and personal - be it positive or negative?

The main person I'm thinking of is Caldwell. There's been times when it was John/Elizabeth v. Caldwell and Caldwell/John v. Elizabeth (not sure if there's ever been Elizabeth/Caldwell v. John).

Others include:

Rodney - he started off as Elizabeth's friend and now I would say he is closer to John. Has his nuance or friendship helped bring John and Elizabeth together? Out of everybody, it's Rodney that seems most open to the idea of Sparky, as evidence in TLG. Could it be he recognises how good they are for each other bc of his close friendship to both of them?

Teyla - started off as John's aquaintance and has become friends with both John and Elizabeth over time. As a leader in the PG I think she is in the best position to understand both John and Elizabeth's leadership positions, so could it be she has helped them to understand one another?

Carson - has always been there for Elizabeth. He's probably the one who knows best about how she singles herself out and how unhealthy that can be. Maybe he nudged her to share responsibilities with John, or maybe he spoke to John about it and got him to make the effort in halving the pressure. I haven't seen it in a while but didn't he say something in Conversion to Elizabeth about speaking to John bc there were close... or something?

Ford - used to follow John around like a lost puppy. Grodin was the first big loss to them both (actually, probably more Elizabeth as she speant more time with him than John) but Ford was a loss of a different nature. Maybe what happened to him showed how they all needed to stick together and his dissappearance helped them realise how much of a family they had become.

And that's just the good guys. I'm sure the Genii has had an affect on them, and the Wraith. What about the other bad guys they've come into contact with? Like Lucius. Irresistible and Irresponsible may not have been fan favourites but you can't deny there was good stuff with John and Elizabeth in them - at least in the former.

[SallyLizzie]

Would you have something to tell me?

Answer: It's possible.

[Blower'sGate]

Well so far, I haven't find the episodic questions... I have to go through at least 1000 pages !!!!! So I came up with 2 questions whilst reading various discussions that took place last year when s3 was being shot :

- What do you think about the fact that the kiss in TLG was public?
- Possible off screen interactions that might have taken place in s2 and that implied sparky allusions?

[Anuna]

I like the idea! Bring on the questions!!

*bounces*

About sleepover - oh yeah! Something definately happened! You can sense the ease, and he is in his good old "I'm soo cool and irresistible" mode. And she is so obviously flirting with him and flashing him that smile. I love The Intruder. But that's the obvious part!

This is what I find oh so very interesting in that ep:

Spoiler:

They can't beam John from the 302. He's obviously upset, but Elizabeth manages to persuade him everything is going okay, when in fact it isn't.



She won't give up on him just yet, hehe.

She sounds so confident here, and says it with a little smile. That moment caught my eye, bc of her confidence; it was like, "oh I got rid of Simon, and something happened between us finally, and I won't let stupid beaming technology problems stand in the way!"

Sleepover! Yeah.

EDIT - Carson affecting Elizabeth's relationship/behavior in Conversion - he said that she should talk to him bc he is scared out of his mind, but hides it. It was like a little nudge towards the right direction for Elizabeth. From that point on she is by John's side during his worse moments in this episode.

Caldwell vs John/Elizabeth - also in Conversion, Caldwell is very determinant to get his hands on John's job, something that Elizabeth won't allow. It's like Caldwell tries to erase every single evidence of John's presence (in a professional way - he changes everything John has established as a military commander); at the same time Elizabeth tries to keep all those things in place. For her it means holding onto hope John will recover. At the end of the episode her relief is very evident.

[Blower'sGate]

Nice comparison, BG.

Okay, we've talked a lot recently about John and Elizabeth and how the have affected each other, so until I have time to come up with episodic questions, I'm posing this one:

How have others affected John and Elizabeth's feeling towards each other - both professional and personal - be it positive or negative?

The main person I'm thinking of is Caldwell. There's been times when it was John/Elizabeth v. Caldwell and Caldwell/John v. Elizabeth (not sure if there's ever been Elizabeth/Caldwell v. John).

Remember in Conversion, when Caldwell tells Elizabeth : " You two are pretty close, aren't you? ", I think it made her realize how much she cares about John, hence why she spends most her time trying to save bug!John. She's protecting him of course but in a way she's uber gentle with him when they're in his quarters. I think she's more afraid of loosing him rather than being attacked by sexy!bug. She goes to see John in his quarters after Caldwell says that to her. I think it affected her judgement on the situation; she's not only the commanding officer who visits one the expedition member but she feels like she has to be there the entire time to help the 2IC who seems to be her best friend, bc I think he's Elizabeth's best friend.

SL: Don't play JM with me, I wanna know!! ( I tried to send you a pm but your box's full..tutut )

[Anuna]

Totally agree BG!! May I add, she is among very few people who still see John in sexy!bug, and not a beast. She is totally concentrated on John, and other aspects of the situation don't catch as much of her attention.

As for baddies who affected John and Elizabeth, I'd like to point out Kolya. When he told John he killed Elizabeth in TS/TE, it pushed John over the edge. Something inside of him snapped, he went on a frenzy killing spree around Atlantis, and when Kolya said Elizabeth was still alive, good ole John forgot to ask about Rodney.

"Elizabeth is alive? Let me talk to her!!"

Who cares about poor Rodney's butt?

[SallyLizzie]

She sounds so confident here, and says it with a little smile. That moment caught my eye, bc of her confidence; it was like, "oh I got rid of Simon, and something happened between us finally, and I won't let stupid beaming technology problems stand in the way!"

LOL! I love it! It's totally like that, like "Well I finally got laid again. And by John! So it doesn't matter what happens now bc I can die happy."

The thing I find so interesting is that they're flirty throughout the whole episode. I know it must have been about a month since Simon broke it off but they were together for years and both times they split where under non-usual cirmcumstances. It had to be very draining, especially for Elizabeth who ad, in addition, just gone through a major seige and lost many of her people, including the open-ended case of Ford. Yet, here she is, sharing secret looks with John and looking absolutely radiant! Which is why I saythey had to have had another "sleepover".

One 'look' in particular that I love is when Caldwell asks to have a word with Elizabeth and as she walks past John, they share this little look. It reminded me of being in school when you're having a laugh with your friend only to get pulled outside by the teacher, but it's still amusing - like "Here we go again, in trouble with the 'big boss'" Very cute little exchange.

Carson affecting Elizabeth's relationship/behavior in Conversion - he said that she should talk to him bc he is scared out of his mind, but hides it. It was like a little nudge towards the right direction for Elizabeth. From that point on she is by John's side during his worse moments in this episode.

Ah, thanks! So maybe he recognises that John wouldn't want to be around his friends/team as he's going through such drastic changes and that the only person who could possibly stand a chance of getting close enough to support him is Elizabeth. And maybe that's why the rest of the team seemed to stay away from John, bc they knew Elizabeth was with him and she was the best person to get him through his ordeal.

SL: Don't play JM with me, I wanna know!! ( could send you a pm, your box's full..tutut )

Are you asking if I'll empty my inbox? ...maybe.

[Blower'sGate]

As for baddies who affected John and Elizabeth, I'd like to point out Kolya. When he told John he killed Elizabeth in TS/TE, it pushed John over the edge. Something inside of him snapped, he went on a frenzy killing spree around Atlantis, and when Kolya said Elizabeth was still alive, good ole John forgot to ask about Rodney.

"Elizabeth is alive? Let me talk to her!!"

Who cares about poor Rodney's butt?

ITA, the fact that he didn't ask about Rodney always got me, it was all about her from the begining. He thought she was dead and he understood what a death among his people would affect him. Most of the story in The Eye revolves around this hide and seek game and when Kolya tells John Dr. Weir is dead, it's like he's got nothing to loose anymore and he's willing to die along. He's trying to save the city but I think he's not afraid of dying -even if it means the city won't be saved. In a way he manages to survive all this time without knowing she's still alive so to me it sounds like she's his adrenaline. I think he lost control, hence the reason why it reinforces his bravery to face the situation alone. But it's as if he felt that he wouldn't die until the situation has been taken care of bc that's what Elizabeth would have wanted him to do. It pushed him over the edge but somehow he knows he can't fall of the cliff ( it's a metaphor, lol ) until Atlantis is saved.

[SallyLizzie]

As for baddies who affected John and Elizabeth, I'd like to point out Kolya.

Kolya's a great example! And I think Cowen, aswell - was he in Coup, where they have John captured and upon bargaining with Elizabeth, orders John to be killed first? I saw that as the Genii not really wanting to spill any blood they didn't have to. That's not their m.o. So I assume they knew John was the best bargaining chip bc Elizabeth wouldn't be willing to have him die in such circumstances, so they used him first thinking she'd agree to their requests so there would be no pointless bloodshed. Same goes for Kolya in Common Ground.

Oh yeah, John definatly gave away his hand in TS/TE regarding how much he valued Elizabeth.

[Anuna]

The thing I find so interesting is that they're flirty throughout the whole episode. I know it must have been about a month since Simon broke it off but they were together for years and both times they split where under non-usual cirmcumstances. It had to be very draining, especially for Elizabeth who ad, in addition, just gone through a major seige and lost many of her people, including the open-ended case of Ford. Yet, here she is, sharing secret looks with John and looking absolutely radiant! Which is why I saythey had to have had another "sleepover".


Ah, thanks! So maybe he recognises that John wouldn't want to be around his friends/team as he's going through such drastic changes and that the only person who could possibly stand a chance of getting close enough to support him is Elizabeth. And maybe that's why the rest of the team seemed to stay away from John, bc they knew Elizabeth was with him and she was the best person to get him through his ordeal.


Are you asking if I'll empty my inbox? ...maybe.

About first thing I bolded - the experience was totally draining, and yet she looks as radiant as the sun!!! LOL

Second - Carson knew Elizabeth would still look at him and treat him as a person, and not half beast. He also knew she cared enough not to let go. And she didn't, and that is why I love Conversion so much. *sappy sigh*

ITA, the fact that he didn't ask about Rodney always got me, it was all about her from the begining. He thought she was dead and he understood what a death among his people would affect him. Most of the story in The Eye revolves around this hide and seek game and when Kolya tells John Dr. Weir is dead, it's like he's got nothing to loose anymore and he's willing to die along. He's trying to save the city but I think he's not afraid of dying -even if it means the city won't be saved. In a way he manages to survive all this time without knowing she's still alive so to me it sounds like she's his adrenaline. I think he lost control, hence the reason why it reinforces his bravery to face the situation alone. But it's as if he felt that he wouldn't die until the situation has been taken care of bc that's what Elizabeth would have wanted him to do. It pushed him over the edge but somehow he knows he can't fall of the cliff ( it's a metaphor, lol ) until Atlantis is saved.

I think a dam inside of him broke. He reacted purely on his emotions when he thought Elizabeth was dead - at the end of TS he desperately shouts in that comm. device.
John isn't afraid of dying, he is more afraid of not being able to help and protect people he cares about. Being useless and helpless - and Kolya put him into a situation where he was pretty much helpless - is worse than death.
I bet it went trough his mind that Elizabeth would want him to take care of the city. What he did forget was that Elizabeth would want him to take care of himself too.

Kolya's a great example! And I think Cowen, aswell - was he in Coup, where they have John captured and upon bargaining with Elizabeth, orders John to be killed first? I saw that as the Genii not really wanting to spill any blood they didn't have to. That's not their m.o. So I assume they knew John was the best bargaining chip bc Elizabeth wouldn't be willing to have him die in such circumstances, so they used him first thinking she'd agree to their requests so there would be no pointless bloodshed. Same goes for Kolya in Common Ground.

Oh yeah, John definatly gave away his hand in TS/TE regarding how much he valued Elizabeth.

Or maybe they wanted to break her by killing the person she cared about most and showing they mean business by doing that. It's like - they killed the man i love. I have nothing more to lose - something similar to TS/TE (when John feels he's got nothing more to lose) in a way, but there are also other people in question - she can save them by accepting Genii's terms, and maybe she would be more likely to do so, now when her heart is ripped of her chest... stop me! I'm getting into that sappy mode again LOL

[SazZat]

How have others affected John and Elizabeth's feeling towards each other - both professional and personal - be it positive or negative?

Remember in Conversion, when Caldwell tells Elizabeth : " You two are pretty close, aren't you? ", I think it made her realize how much she cares about John, hence why she spends most her time trying to save bug!John. She's protecting him of course but in a way she's uber gentle with him when they're in his quarters. I think she's more afraid of loosing him rather than being attacked by sexy!bug. She goes to see John in his quarters after Caldwell says that to her. I think it affected her judgement on the situation; she's not only the commanding officer who visits one the expedition member but she feels like she has to be there the entire time to help the 2IC who seems to be her best friend, bc I think he's Elizabeth's best friend.

I totally agree there. As soon as I read the question about who others have effected their feelings towards each other, Caldwell and that moment instantly came to mind.

Actually I think it's a thing with those Colonels beaming/gating to Atlantis that brings out the best sometimes.
Like Everett, who completely underminded Elizabeth. Then we get that great scene where John says that she has earnt everyones trust and respect on Atlantis, including his own. The look on Everett's face is priceless.
Elizabeth returns the favour, as such, in Intruder when she defends John against all the military bods and manages to secure his promotion.


Other characters:

Lorne: Shep's 2IC I think has a pretty good feeling of how close John and Elizabeth are. In the episode Condemned and The Lost Boys it's quite obvious to see. I'm not sure how much off-screen conversations we could imagine he's had with Shep. I mean he's seen first hand how much Elizabeth worries and he's even mentioned this, but he understands it and he I think sometimes he feels a certain sympathy towards her when she is worrying about John. I don't think he really makes her realise that she cares for him, but he is always supportive and sensitive when it comes to Shep missing or whatever.

Carson: I think Carson is closest to Elizabeth (other than John). I think they are closer on moral grounds and perhaps find it easier to be friends because of the fact they are both civialians in the largely military environment.
In Conversion, Carson shows that he understand John and Elizabeth are close because otherwise he wouldn't encourage her to be the one to speak to John and try to ease his mind.
Roles reversed, he does simular in The Real World, encouraging John when he questions whether Elizabeth would be able to hear him while in the coma or not. He doesn't squash the thought, he lets John have the hope that maybe Elizabeth would be able to hear him.
I think he understands that the two of them are close and they do want to protect and support one another. Carson sees this and he doesn't pretend to ignore it. I think he has been a big part in pushing them together when times get tough. There's always that bit of hesitation between John and Elizabeth in those sort of life/death really tough situations and Carson has on several occasions given them almost like permission to be concerned/emotionally supportive for one another.


One thing that always strikes me about John and Elizabeth is that when they are each putting their lives on the line for each other or defending each others opinion/actions to others, they are never in positions where the other of them finds out about how supportive they've been. Do you know what I mean?
Like in Conversion, I doubt John would remember everything about how Elizabeth was there for him all the way through it. Same with John in The Real World. And Elizabeth worrying about John in The Lost Boys/The Hive.
They go about protecting each other so much and sometimes I wonder if they have ever both found out that this goes on, maybe from others in the main team.

[atlantis_babe34]

With that Saz also, i've noticed how John Would die for her.. EG. In The Real Wolrd, he risks gettng infected and dying by nanites just to tell her that she has to fight it and to survive. And in Progney, i don't know if any of u are a sparky detailed as i am, but Shepp gradually moved over to stand n front of her, when Niam was taking them back to the gate and there was that "little" Standoff. I truly believe he would die for her.

[Blower'sGate]

Random OT :

I watched Romeo + Juliet ( Baz Lurman's version ) again, Gosh I love that movie. Well now I have this John + Elizabeth theory in mind.

If Lizzie "should" die, I'd love to have a scene a la R+J, but John wouldn't die, lol, bc he'd see her wake up just in time ( PG's fake poisons don't screw up at the last minute, lol ) and he'd see that it was a fake death and by the end of s4 they would live happily ever after

Well, not so much as Romeo & Juliet anymore...

Back to real discussion.

[SallyLizzie]

With that Saz also, i've noticed how John Would die for her..

Spoiler:

EG. In The Real Wolrd, he risks gettng infected and dying by nanites just to tell her that she has to fight it and to survive.

TRW

Spoiler:

I doubt that him getting infected even crossed his mind. Sure, he knew if anyone came into direct contact with they risked getting infected, hence the big tent and all the suits, but I think he was so concentrated on the prospect of losing Elizabeth that it slipped his mind. I don't think it would have hit him until after the fact what a dangerous thing it was to do... but he would have still done it regardless bc he's John and bc Elizabeth's worth the risk.

And in Progney,

Spoiler:

i don't know if any of u are a sparky detailed as i am, but Shepp gradually moved over to stand n front of her, when Niam was taking them back to the gate and there was that "little" Standoff. I truly believe he would die for her.

Progeny

Spoiler:

Aw, I don't remember that. I totally agree he would die for her.

The thing I remember most about Progeny is towards the end in the jumper, where Teyla, Ronon and McKay are all struggling to remove Niam's grip on Elizabeth and then John frees her with one swift shove, lol. Then there's the bit after that when he asks if she's okay. It's not in the same way he asks if a member of his team is okay; it's much softer and much more concerned. With a team member, it always sounds like it's about assessing the situation, but with Elizabeth it was like a little moment just between those two where he was more concerned about her than the situation

- What do you think about the fact that the kiss in TLG was public?

Do you mean that it happened infront of Caldwell, Beckett, and McKay or that it was used in the television promo?

- Possible off screen interactions that might have taken place in s2 and that implied sparky allusions?

Again, I'm confused. Do you mean interactions between Torri and Joe that lead to moments between John and Elizabeth being viewed as more than just friendship, or scenes we never saw with John and Elizabeth that could have contributed to their close friendship?