Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Bama]

Critical Mass, anyone?

Spoiler:

I adored this episode. I loved seeing Elizabeth make a mistake and know it. There was just such a depth to the episode that one doesn't often see in television, frankly. The final scene of the episode is what really sold it for me. I love it when the heroes are willing to admit that yeah, they could have done better. I like that there were no easy answers to the problems that arose.

Gah, what's to say? Was there anything bad about this ep? It was finger lickin fantastic from start to finish. I loved the way Elizabeth kept having to take it on the chin and somehow John knew it and sensed it and offered her his arm to lean on. There was such a feeling of personal bonding between our duo that saturated this ep and followed right on thru to the end of the season.

I also enjoyed seeing Elizabeth's vindictive side show thru a little. I loved seeing how human she can be and how possessive she is when someone threatens to take what's of value to her. She'll fight for it-hard.
I loved Cadman in this and think she's on her way to becoming a really great secondary character. She and Rodney's sparring may become even more interesting in eps to come.

"Love is friendship on fire." -Line from The Perfect Man

Line from a movie I caught late last night. I kind of like that. There is just so much friendship involved in falling in love with someone. So much.

[Southern Red]

I loved CM also. Cadman has come to be my favorite secondary character.

Spoiler:

What's not to like about a red-headed tapdancing Marine who blows things up? I admit I was screaming for that old Athosian lady to just die already. Didn't they know there was a bomb in the city and they had to HURRY? But I liked the song. Once again John and Liz working in perfect harmony, and the way he took time to come by and try to console her at the end. He must have known she was upset because it seemed he deliberately came to tell her a funny to try and cheer her up. And then when it didn't work he just switched over to quietly agreeing with her and letting her feel down. Now how in touch can two people be? And I thought for a minute he was going to reach out and touch that pot.

[Bama]

I loved CM also. Cadman has come to be my favorite secondary character.

Spoiler:

What's not to like about a red-headed tapdancing Marine who blows things up? I admit I was screaming for that old Athosian lady to just die already. Didn't they know there was a bomb in the city and they had to HURRY? But I liked the song. Once again John and Liz working in perfect harmony, and the way he took time to come by and try to console her at the end. He must have known she was upset because it seemed he deliberately came to tell her a funny to try and cheer her up. And then when it didn't work he just switched over to quietly agreeing with her and letting her feel down. Now how in touch can two people be? And I thought for a minute he was going to reach out and touch that pot.

Sigh...good question. How in touch indeed? When two people 'feel' each other the way these two do, it's not a matter of what-just when.

And Cadman? I'm with you-I'm in her fan club. I actually would enjoy a little triangle action though with her and Carson and Rodney. I think she and Rodney spark in a really neat way. If the writers were smart, they'd build on that imo. She stands up to Rodney in the way few women will ever be able to. She also 'gets' him. I like that.

[A.L.]

Why do some people have to be so DUMB!?!?!?!?! RL. GR.

Moving on, I have a question that I'd like to pose for everyone's discussion. Not because discussion is lacking just for my own curiosities sake.

Q: Between Elizabeth and John, who do you think would be more reluctant about admitting their feelings and acting on them?

My answer would be Sheppard. It surprised me at first when I realized I thought Lizzie would be more willing to move things beyond friendship than Shep because she just seems so much more inclined to follow the rules than him despite his military training. But as I watch the show and see how they interact with each other and everyone else I'm inclined to believe that it would be Shep who needed convincing that admitting what they feel for each other and acting on them is okay.

AL

[Ronnikins]

I loved CM also. Cadman has come to be my favorite secondary character.

Spoiler:

What's not to like about a red-headed tapdancing Marine who blows things up? I admit I was screaming for that old Athosian lady to just die already. Didn't they know there was a bomb in the city and they had to HURRY? But I liked the song. Once again John and Liz working in perfect harmony, and the way he took time to come by and try to console her at the end. He must have known she was upset because it seemed he deliberately came to tell her a funny to try and cheer her up. And then when it didn't work he just switched over to quietly agreeing with her and letting her feel down. Now how in touch can two people be? And I thought for a minute he was going to reach out and touch that pot.

Joins the Cadman Fan Club too. I enjoy the Cadman/Beckett dynamics. She's the no nonsense, explosives expert Marine, dedicated and self-sacrificing (as in Duet) and Beckett is such a lovely soft, woobie, gentle civilian doctor who always believe in doing the right thing (even offering to help an injured Wraith). On paper the Marine and the Civilian seem to have nothing in common, yet it is being played out canonically. Hmmm, does this remind you of another couple and could this be a sign of things to come?

On Critical Mass:

Spoiler:

Thought I post you what Carl Binder said about the episode:

"I like the more intimate episodes in which our characters are challenged in ways that create moral dilemmas."
"That happens in Critical Mass, and also in my next episode, Michael, which is a personal favourite of all the ones I wrote in Season Two. It shows Dr Weir and her people in a decidedly different light, and one that also becomes increasingly uncomfortable for them."

I enjoyed this episode, it was darker, grittier. The expedition members were not heroes for a change but flawed human beings. There has been some criticism of Weir behaving out of character here in sanctioning the torture of Kavanaugh but we must remember there was a time constraint and limited information in finding the bomber. I don't think she was vindictive as such since all the intel they gathered more or less pointed to Kav and they really had no other suspects. Hence, the end scene where she was dealing with her conscience on what she did even though she didn't really have a choice. Carl Binder definitely has a story arc in mind for her. I liked the way John was immediately attuned to her sadness and went with it in comforting her.

[Ronnikins]

Why do some people have to be so DUMB!?!?!?!?! RL. GR.

Moving on, I have a question that I'd like to pose for everyone's discussion. Not because discussion is lacking just for my own curiosities sake.

Q: Between Elizabeth and John, who do you think would be more reluctant about admitting their feelings and acting on them?

My answer would be Sheppard. It surprised me at first when I realized I thought Lizzie would be more willing to move things beyond friendship than Shep because she just seems so much more inclined to follow the rules than him despite his military training. But as I watch the show and see how they interact with each other and everyone else I'm inclined to believe that it would be Shep who needed convincing that admitting what they feel for each other and acting on them is okay.

AL

AL, you should vent your rage in the Off-topics Shep/Weir Chatting thread, we can commiserate with you then without worrying about being on topic and you'll feel heaps better!

We had this exact discussion a while ago (a very long discussion ), not everybody agreed but I think the general consensus was John would be more reluctant to admit his feelings openly.
My own take was even though he cares for her ,he may think he's not good enough for such an intelligent, well-educated, classy woman such as her. In his normal line of duty, he wouldn't have met up with somebody of her type. Another thing is that they have a wonderfully close friendship now, something he probably wouldn't like to jeopardise, unless he was really, really sure she was the one.
Ideally, I don't think one needs to declare their love for the other vocally. Their body language especially their eyes would say it all. I've mentioned I don't want their declaration of love to come under life threatening or heat of the moment situations. I want it to be out on the balcony at night after a routine day where all they have to do is turn to look at each other for the longest moment, (no need for pesky words, its all in their eyes), they move closer and closer towards each other .......the end.

[Southern Red]

AL, we did have this discussion before, but I think it's worth revisiting. I agree with Ron that John would be the more reluctant of the two. At this point in time, I don't think he even realizes how deep his feelings for Elizabeth are. He's got the whole rule thing in mind, even though there is not one specifically that says they can't be together. He is still trying to prove himself, especially to her. I think he could give a rip what the PTB back on Earth think of him, but he doesn't want to disappoint her. He probably hasn't really thought about it, but if he did he might just think that she's out of his league. Why he has that huge inferiority complex we may never know unless they give us some backstory *dammit*. Being male he has certainly noticed her as a woman, but I don't think he's allowed himself to think of her in terms of being available for him. If he could see another man being attracted to her, I think it would make all the difference. He obviously had trouble getting ahold of himself when she hugged him, and goodness knows what he thinks of the kiss. I imagine those other women are part of his attempt to divert his thoughts. Plus he uses the fly boy persona to keep people off balance and hide his true nature. Again, why we may never know. I do think though that we've seen quite enough coming from her. If this ship is going to be credible, we need the next move to come from him.

[Bladefanatic]

Okay, I've finally started Season 2 of "Very Secret Atlantis Journals" (VSAJ)

Here is "The Siege III".

19 more to go! *headdesk*

WhooHoooo!! I have loved every one of your "VSAJ"s. I will try and green you if they let me!

Today's episode of TLG go me thinking and that created a fic.

Transformation
It is a Phoebus/Thalan fic but be warned that it is rated NC-17.

Amazing fic Gwen!

[A.L.]

AL, we did have this discussion before, but I think it's worth revisiting.

Yeah, I figured this topic had been brought up before but since I came late to the party and don't have the time to re-read every single post like some of you fabulous people, I thought I'd ask anyway. I know I'm not the only newbie so it's all good.

What surprises me is that John seems to be the majorities choice. I hadn't expected that one but it's nice to know great minds think alike. We are all Sparky fans, aren't we?

AL

[Melyanna]

Q: Between Elizabeth and John, who do you think would be more reluctant about admitting their feelings and acting on them?

Honestly? I think it depends a lot on the situation. I've read good fics written either way, and I've written either way. Overall, I think Elizabeth would probably realize what's going on earlier, but as for who would act on it first, I think the situation would matter a lot.

[firedust22]

HI I'm new here and I am feeling a little crazy... I think I'll dive in head first!

A.L. - About your question, I think I must agree. Sheppard is the (I don't want to say "type" because he's not someone that I would want to try and catagorize) one in the room that is so busy adapting to his surroundings and acting according to what he thinks is best (not for the future, but for the right now) that he forgets to take the mask off once in a while - unless, of course, it is the best course of action. He's like one of those obssesive chess players that never really stops playing even though the board is all packed up for the night. Letting his guard sown will never happen, he sees it as "blinking." In his eyes, letting out emotion is one of those things that will come back and bite him, hurt him in the long run, show the enemy his weakness. He's not thinking about what he might regret down the road.

Elizabeth, on the other hand, lets her emotions fuel her situation, sets them to her advantage. Which is one really big reason that I admire the character, most people are either like John, always with the mask on, or they're drama queens.

So yes, I think that it will take some prodding for John to trust Elizabeth enough to "open up." I'm not even sure if he has admitted the feelings to himself, but even if he began to think about it for some reason, he would quickly dismiss the thought because his chess-player brain would find something wrong with that strategy.

But that is just my opinion!

Great thread, you guys! I have found a new paradise!!

[A.L.]

HI I'm new here and I am feeling a little crazy... I think I'll dive in head first!

A.L. - About your question, I think I must agree. Sheppard is the (I don't want to say "type" because he's not someone that I would want to try and catagorize) one in the room that is so busy adapting to his surroundings and acting according to what he thinks is best (not for the future, but for the right now) that he forgets to take the mask off once in a while - unless, of course, it is the best course of action. He's like one of those obssesive chess players that never really stops playing even though the board is all packed up for the night. Letting his guard sown will never happen, he sees it as "blinking." In his eyes, letting out emotion is one of those things that will come back and bite him, hurt him in the long run, show the enemy his weakness. He's not thinking about what he might regret down the road.

Elizabeth, on the other hand, lets her emotions fuel her situation, sets them to her advantage. Which is one really big reason that I admire the character, most people are either like John, always with the mask on, or they're drama queens.

So yes, I think that it will take some prodding for John to trust Elizabeth enough to "open up." I'm not even sure if he has admitted the feelings to himself, but even if he began to think about it for some reason, he would quickly dismiss the thought because his chess-player brain would find something wrong with that strategy.

But that is just my opinion!

Great thread, you guys! I have found a new paradise!!

Welcome! Welcome! Yes, this place is quite faboo. Everyone's really nice. Just watch out for FP and the mints. Don't worry. you'll know soon enough.

And thanks for your comments right off the bat.

AL

[Ronnikins]

Letting his guard sown will never happen, he sees it as "blinking." In his eyes, letting out emotion is one of those things that will come back and bite him, hurt him in the long run, show the enemy his weakness. He's not thinking about what he might regret down the road.
So yes, I think that it will take some prodding for John to trust Elizabeth enough to "open up." I'm not even sure if he has admitted the feelings to himself, but even if he began to think about it for some reason, he would quickly dismiss the thought because his chess-player brain would find something wrong with that strategy.

Welcome to the thread firedust22!!! You've reinforced my theory that we get at least one newbie every week. Yeah, stay away from the mints, mint cake or anything minty for that matter.

I like your opinion about Shep and the analogy with the chess playing. One thing I may differ a bit with is I think John has let his guard down in regards to Elizabeth. Since he didn't view her as hot babe, girlfriend, dating material in the first place but rather as his colleague, leader of the expedition, good friend, she may have snuck in through the back door without him realising it. He may think they are very close friends and confidantes (and so they are) but he behaves differently with her compared to everybody else on Atlantis. The gentle tone in his voice, the eye contact, the need for physical close proximity, seeking her out always...need I go on? And speaking from personal experience having a good solid friendship where one knows the other inside out can be a strong foundation for building a deeper,more lasting, loving relationship.
I've rambled enough today so we'll talk about chess strategies another time. Keep posting!

[Bama]

AL, we did have this discussion before, but I think it's worth revisiting. I agree with Ron that John would be the more reluctant of the two. At this point in time, I don't think he even realizes how deep his feelings for Elizabeth are. He's got the whole rule thing in mind, even though there is not one specifically that says they can't be together. He is still trying to prove himself, especially to her. I think he could give a rip what the PTB back on Earth think of him, but he doesn't want to disappoint her. He probably hasn't really thought about it, but if he did he might just think that she's out of his league. Why he has that huge inferiority complex we may never know unless they give us some backstory *dammit*. Being male he has certainly noticed her as a woman, but I don't think he's allowed himself to think of her in terms of being available for him. If he could see another man being attracted to her, I think it would make all the difference. He obviously had trouble getting ahold of himself when she hugged him, and goodness knows what he thinks of the kiss. I imagine those other women are part of his attempt to divert his thoughts. Plus he uses the fly boy persona to keep people off balance and hide his true nature. Again, why we may never know. I do think though that we've seen quite enough coming from her. If this ship is going to be credible, we need the next move to come from him.

I love this post and this topic. You guys are terrific. That is all.

For a few minutes.

Edit: Ok..."doesn't see her being available for him" B-I-N-G-O.

We've talked ad nauseum about John not feeling "good enough" or feeling that there's no way in hades she'd ever be right for him because of where they come from in life and to me, WOW, does that make this potential coupling ever so incredibly fascinating. This is a classic romance of two different worlds coming together and two very different individuals finding out just how alike they are. Torri said it beautifully when she said John and Elizabeth meet at the heart. Oh yes they do.

The hard part for the writers is getting them from the heart to the loins without making it come off cheap, tacky or contrived. I don't envy them the job and I'm going to try to not be so hard on them if they have a few missteps along the way. Pleasing demanding shippers is hard-especially those of the female gender. I think they are going about the task the right way as of now. They've built the friendship angle up to incredibly obvious to all and they've allowed John and Elizabeth to show each other flashes of their opposite sex charms in the bits of flirting. They've also downplayed of late the early bickering and let them fall into more of a 'us against the rest of the world' sympatico. Anything that builds that wall around just the two of them is good for them emotionally and eventually it will begin to pay off physically. The hug was an early step in showing that. There have been a lot of decent tv ships that have been built on much less foundation than the SGA folks have given John and Elizabeth. The exciting thing is this one has a chance to be very, very memorable for we the fans. And as a romantic soul, I find that very exciting.

And now a quick question for you all...

I received a message from...shall we say a person not in favor of Sheppard and Weir or my 'take' on things. This person tells me emphatically that I'm pretty much full of horse manure (probably some truth to that) and that the only reason John flirts with Elizabeth so much is because he wants to use his charm to build her ego up so he can get his way. And in comparison, the only reason he flirts with another person so little openly is because he would never flirt and charm someone he has an inner torch burning for because he's terribly afraid that if he flirts with this other woman that she'll see his true inner feelings coming through.

Any thoughts on a response?

I think I went comatose reading it.

Oh and Welcome Firedust!!!! Enjoyed your first thoughts! Well done!

And sue me, I like polls. This one is decent because you can't stuff the box if for no other reason. Here's the link Ruined Puzzle posted earlier. Going on 300 votes now. Probably more 'no romos' at this point than shippers of any sort but that's about the case for every sci-fi / adventure show. Me? I want the whole burrito loaded-I think it tastes better.

http://www.misterpoll.com/results.mpl?id=3963710855

[gwenhwyfar]

Amazing fic Gwen!

Thank you very much! The

Spoiler:

backstory just came to me while watching the episode. It was so obvious there was something more going on besides a centuries old war.

I'm thinking of doing a sequel.