Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[SGLAB]

After reading hopalong's post about The Hive regarding all the knives he had hidden on his person, I was inspired. I just whipped this out and posted it to my lj.

The Baby-sitter

[Bama]

I think you're on to something with the Ronon comment. His addition has meant a lot for the S/W relationship. For example the times in Duet

Spoiler:

when John approaches her to ask if Ronon can stay. We got some lovely moments out of that. Then later her awkwardness trying to relate to him. I wonder if it's in the back of her mind that having Ronon around is important to John, and she is making a supreme effort to welcome him for John's sake. Not necessarily for shippy reasons either. Then later in Michael I think it was when Ronon was surprised that she asked his opinion. The writers are obviously showing her flexibility there.

If we look over S2 as a whole I think we'd see more growth than we think in how they are showing us that S/W is the ship of choice. There are too many people who see it who are non-shippers, like my husband and son. Neither of whom feel the need to patronize me by pretending to see something because I do. In fact when I asked my son if he thought Shep and Teyla would get together, he said "don't you mean Weir?" I have a friend who along with her husband is a huge fan of the show but not involved in fandom. They both just assume it's S/W.

My husband (who is on his extended Memorial Day vacation) and I were in the great room just a few mins. ago and he was watching an old XFiles ep from Season Five I believe it was-'Folle a Deux'. I just caught the last few mins of it and watched the last scene where the title of the ep is expounded upon and explained as 'A madness meant for two'. I told my husband that I remembered thinking that was the episode that absolutely put every doubt out of my mind that Mulder and Scully would end up anywhere besides each other's arms. In his usual droll way he snorted and said, "It was about a bug." (sigh..he is *such* a man) But no. It wasn't just about a 'bug'. It was about explaining that two people who are willing to open their eyes can see all the possibilities. That ep made clear to me that because of their joint madness, that they would either be alone forever or it would be each other because no one else would ever understand them properly again. They were changed as individuals in a life-altering sense and as a pair in an emotional one. I get the same 'vibe' from where I see with John and Elizabeth heading. They are in a special place-in a special role that no one can understand but the two of them. The things they'll share aren't understandable by anyone else on Earth. These things that are happening to them individually and jointly are changing them inside forever. Yes, they have a lot of growing to do yet together and alone but there's a invisible bond; a connection between them that has already been built that I believe will prove itself irreplacable and naturally lead them to each other in every way.

So, again, the wheels turn slowly. They may go ahead back to the original plan just to see what happens. An awful risk to take with ratings, but I don't think ship one way or another would have much impact. I do, however, think the kirking has. And I'm 90% certain we've seen the last of that. But they are men, after all. Sorry guys.

I don't really see the Kirking as a huge problem for the ship unless it continues ad nauseum for funnies and I don't think they want to do that to the character. These women are meaningless 'throw aways'. I can't even point to one of them and say, 'boy did she change him or what!' I do expect to see a lessening of it though if his personal relationship with Elizabeth deepens even more to the emotional depths that I believe it will.

[emotionallydisturbed]

I hope I can bring in some discussion for once, because I have a question to pose to the audience here. I was just reading the S/W fic rec'ced above, by LittleRed (nice fic!), and went and read some of her others. Veracity, in particular, caught my interest.

My question is this: In this fabulous little fanfic, the author expertly brings to forefront one of my main reservations regarding this ship: the effects it will have on Weir's decision making. I can see Elizabeth's decisions being compromised (and yeah, I think that's the right word) by her feelings for John in a similar manner to how it was effected in "Veracity." The situation would probably work both ways too, with John showing a fair amount of bias in his decisions regarding Elizabeth, but mostly, I see this as more of a potential problem for Elizabeth. Essentially, she is the one in charge, and her decisions are the ones that are going to be scrutinized and ripped apart in fandom. Even if she's willing to let John go off on suicide missions (regardless of her own "feelings" for the man), I can still see her allowing these emotions to effect her judgments on smaller scales.

In Trinity and Duet, you see her reservations and opinions almost getting overridden by John's opinion. In truth, I didn't like that. I'm a huge fan of Elizabeth, and want her to be a strong leader. If Elizabeth and John get into a relationship in the future, do people here see it effecting her judgment further? In a possibly negative way?

I hope this is appropriate to ask. This has always been one of my main reservations against the ship, so I'd thought I'd ask your guy's take on it.

[A.L.]

I hope I can bring in some discussion for once, because I have a question to pose to the audience here. I was just reading the S/W fic rec'ced above, by LittleRed (nice fic!), and went and read some of her others. Veracity, in particular, caught my interest.

My question is this: In this fabulous little fanfic, the author expertly brings to forefront one of my main reservations regarding this ship: the effects it will have on Weir's decision making. I can see Elizabeth's decisions being compromised (and yeah, I think that's the right word) by her feelings for John in a similar manner to how it was effected in "Veracity." The situation would probably work both ways too, with John showing a fair amount of bias in his decisions regarding Elizabeth, but mostly, I see this as more of a potential problem for Elizabeth. Essentially, she is the one in charge, and her decisions are the ones that are going to be scrutinized and ripped apart in fandom. Even if she's willing to let John go off on suicide missions (regardless of her own "feelings" for the man), I can still see her allowing these emotions to effect her judgments on smaller scales.

In Trinity and Duet, you see her reservations and opinions almost getting overridden by John's opinion. In truth, I didn't like that. I'm a huge fan of Elizabeth, and want her to be a strong leader. If Elizabeth and John get into a relationship in the future, do people here see it effecting her judgment further? In a possibly negative way?

I hope this is appropriate to ask. This has always been one of my main reservations against the ship, so I'd thought I'd ask your guy's take on it.

Would a deeper relationship between Sheppard and Weir affect their choices when it came to command decisions? Most definitely. As you said, there is evidence on a smaller scale. However, I don't think it's something that can't be controlled. As you said, Elizabeth is a strong woman and after all she's seen and done it'd take more than falling in love with a man under dangerous circumstances to change that to the core. I think she'll slip every once in awhile, letting her feelings for him cloud some of her judgments, and I think the same goes for him. However I don't think it would be a continuous downfall to eventual ruin. I don't think it would take much for her to realize how she's being affected and try harder not to be, to separate the work from the personal. As humans I think it's impossible to do it completely. She may always have that split second's hesitation about letting him run off to possibly die but after all she's experienced in her professional career and all the people she's watched die in her recent job, I think in the end her responsibility for the greater good would win out.

But let's not have the writers test that theory too strongly shall we? No killing off of major characters please. I'm opposed to killing people off in general just because it's so final and even in a universe like stargate, it sometimes makes it difficult to bring them back. ;D

AL

[Bama]

I hope I can bring in some discussion for once, because I have a question to pose to the audience here. I was just reading the S/W fic rec'ced above, by LittleRed (nice fic!), and went and read some of her others. Veracity, in particular, caught my interest.

My question is this: In this fabulous little fanfic, the author expertly brings to forefront one of my main reservations regarding this ship: the effects it will have on Weir's decision making. I can see Elizabeth's decisions being compromised (and yeah, I think that's the right word) by her feelings for John in a similar manner to how it was effected in "Veracity." The situation would probably work both ways too, with John showing a fair amount of bias in his decisions regarding Elizabeth, but mostly, I see this as more of a potential problem for Elizabeth. Essentially, she is the one in charge, and her decisions are the ones that are going to be scrutinized and ripped apart in fandom. Even if she's willing to let John go off on suicide missions (regardless of her own "feelings" for the man), I can still see her allowing these emotions to effect her judgments on smaller scales.

In Trinity and Duet, you see her reservations and opinions almost getting overridden by John's opinion. In truth, I didn't like that. I'm a huge fan of Elizabeth, and want her to be a strong leader. If Elizabeth and John get into a relationship in the future, do people here see it effecting her judgment further? In a possibly negative way?

I hope this is appropriate to ask. This has always been one of my main reservations against the ship, so I'd thought I'd ask your guy's take on it.

There is no way to totally control the heart. It has a mind of it's own. If the the two of them have heightened emotions in regard to the other-they just do and no amount of open denial or open admittal will change that. If Elizabeth keeps her feelings quiet, you may not know if they're helping drive her decision making but they might well be. But it could work the other way too to one of their detriments. I could see where someone accusing Elizabeth of allowing her feelings for John to cloud her decision making and her going out of her way to show by darn that they don't-to the point of even putting him in danger she might not if allowed to make a natural, instinctive decision. I'd argue to you that emotions will always play some part in decisions. Ask Clinton or Bush if personal feelings ever swayed a judgement while they were in office. Of course they do. At every level-all the time. It's the nature of human beings and all you can expect of people is to try their best to put personal 'aside' when making decisions for the whole.

My father in-law ordered his best friend into a fire-fight in WW2 and his best friend was killed at the Battle of the Bulge in the Winter of 45 and while my father-in law misses his friend and has sometimes thought about what might have been, he'll look you in the eye and tell you that it had to be done. The mission had to be accomplished. His friend and he had to be 'man' enough to take the chance of sacrifice. Elizabeth and John are in a similar type situation where they must take the chance of losing each other every day, all the time. It's a risk they're learning to live with and deal with. Not wanting to care and love won't change their situation. Denial of feelings won't change the situation either. But John and Elizabeth's situation is also unique in that they have no 'end time' or 'final conquest' to accomplish and then they get to either come home or be buried a hero. Atlantis is more than a single battle or single war. It's a LIFE. And like it or not, emotions are part of life whereever it may be. And love is as well. In fact, it's the best part of life. To ask them to deny any love they feel together because of fear is not only cruel, it's foolish and unnatural.

[Luz]

But John and Elizabeth's situation is also unique in that they have no 'end time' or 'final conquest' to accomplish and then they get to either come home or be buried a hero. Atlantis is more than a single battle or single war. It's a LIFE. And like it or not, emotions are part of life whereever it may be. And love is as well. In fact, it's the best part of life. To ask them to deny any love they feel together because of fear is not only cruel, it's foolish and unnatural.

Elizabeth has already shown that if it comes to putting Atlantis before John, she'll do it no matter how it crushes her to sacrifice him, on the Siege 2 she let him go on a suicide mission. In Conversion

Spoiler:

she wouldn't sent another team to get the eggs, 'cause she knew it'd mean the death of those people and they probably wouldn't be able to get the eggs anyway. We all saw how sad it made her to think that John had been condemened to die, but she had to put the well being of all those men first.

[A.L.]

There is no way to totally control the heart. It has a mind of it's own. If the the two of them have heightened emotions in regard to the other-they just do and no amount of open denial or open admittal will change that. If Elizabeth keeps her feelings quiet, you may not know if they're helping drive her decision making but they might well be. But it could work the other way too to one of their detriments. I could see where someone accusing Elizabeth of allowing her feelings for John to cloud her decision making and her going out of her way to show by darn that they don't-to the point of even putting him in danger she might not if allowed to make a natural, instinctive decision. I'd argue to you that emotions will always play some part in decisions. Ask Clinton or Bush if personal feelings ever swayed a judgement while they were in office. Of course they do. At every level-all the time. It's the nature of human beings and all you can expect of people is to try their best to put personal 'aside' when making decisions for the whole.

My father in-law ordered his best friend into a fire-fight in WW2 and his best friend was killed at the Battle of the Bulge in the Winter of 45 and while my father-in law misses his friend and has sometimes thought about what might have been, he'll look you in the eye and tell you that it had to be done. The mission had to be accomplished. His friend and he had to be 'man' enough to take the chance of sacrifice. Elizabeth and John are in a similar type situation where they must take the chance of losing each other every day, all the time. It's a risk they're learning to live with and deal with. Not wanting to care and love won't change their situation. Denial of feelings won't change the situation either. But John and Elizabeth's situation is also unique in that they have no 'end time' or 'final conquest' to accomplish and then they get to either come home or be buried a hero. Atlantis is more than a single battle or single war. It's a LIFE. And like it or not, emotions are part of life whereever it may be. And love is as well. In fact, it's the best part of life. To ask them to deny any love they feel together because of fear is not only cruel, it's foolish and unnatural.

One thing I've wondered about is what does it say to the people who were born in this far off galaxy if the Atlanteans don't try to make full lives there as well? Those in the Pegasus galaxy have spent their entire lives living with this fear of the Wraith and yet they keep trying to live. They don't stop because of the danger. And it's not like the Atlanteans could bring them all back to Earth or even just the Milky Way to provide a safe place to have families and such. Eventually space would run out. So how do you tell those people to keep living if the people with the power to fight aren't willing or can't do the same. It doesn't put a lot of faith in the abilities of those they would consider saviors in a way. I think many of them would be less than willing to join the fight with the Atlanteans if they thought the Atlanteans never planned to actually live in their galaxy. It would seem like those from Earth could pick up at anytime and leave the rest to their own devices once more. Seems to me it'd actually make it easier to gain allies if the Atlanteans started really building lives in the pegasus galaxy and I believe that means making it their home in every sense. Settling down, building roots and having families or whatever your definition of really living would be.

AL

[Bama]

One thing I've wondered about is what does it say to the people who were born in this far off galaxy if the Atlanteans don't try to make full lives there as well? Those in the Pegasus galaxy have spent their entire lives living with this fear of the Wraith and yet they keep trying to live. They don't stop because of the danger. And it's not like the Atlanteans could bring them all back to Earth or even just the Milky Way to provide a safe place to have families and such. Eventually space would run out. So how do you tell those people to keep living if the people with the power to fight aren't willing or can't do the same. It doesn't put a lot of faith in the abilities of those they would consider saviors in a way. I think many of them would be less than willing to join the fight with the Atlanteans if they thought the Atlanteans never planned to actually live in their galaxy. It would seem like those from Earth could pick up at anytime and leave the rest to their own devices once more. Seems to me it'd actually make it easier to gain allies if the Atlanteans started really building lives in the pegasus galaxy and I believe that means making it their home in every sense. Settling down, building roots and having families or whatever your definition of really living would be.

AL

Excellent point. If you want to be accepted into a new society, you must try and assimilate somewhat. I find it rather telling that the leaders of the free world made the decision to blend mixed sex civilian scientists and other personel in with mixed sex military personel on what basically amounts to a re-colonization mission. I think that tone is made very clear in 'Rising' when the crew are told this very well might be a one-way ticket. They all had to accept up front that it could be their life. We see the theme repeated in 'Home' in relation to John and Elizabeth as well. They both see themselves as Atlanteans rather than Earthlings and they're OK with that. They understand and take on the importance of the task they face but they didn't leave their hearts on the other side of the Stargate.

I think it's also telling that Carson and Rodney are being so open in their own amorous pursuits. Dating does go on in Atlantis and the leaders-military and civilian condone it. That again points to the higher-ups idea of what they eventually want to see Atlantis become-a full-functioning, safe world for humans to inhabit again. Military bases have family homes, schools, civilian jobs etc. etc. I firmly believe that security is the aim so that same type environment can be on Atlantis.

Teyla's people are under constant fear of attack. They have warriors and yet, they also manage to love, work and live within what perameters their world offers them. Atlantis, in time will be no different. I hope sooner than later. I'm dying to see Elizabeth get to marry a couple. Maybe Carson and Cadman down the line? I hope they give them the Honeymoon Suite right next to Rodney's quarters.

[A.L.]

Excellent point. If you want to be accepted into a new society, you must try and assimilate somewhat. I find it rather telling that the leaders of the free world made the decision to blend mixed sex civilian scientists and other personel in with mixed sex military personel on what basically amounts to a re-colonization mission. I think that tone is made very clear in 'Rising' when the crew are told this very well might be a one-way ticket. They all had to accept up front that it could be their life. We see the theme repeated in 'Home' in relation to John and Elizabeth as well. They both see themselves as Atlanteans rather than Earthlings and they're OK with that. They understand and take on the importance of the task they face but they didn't leave their hearts on the other side of the Stargate.

I think it's also telling that Carson and Rodney are being so open in their own amorous pursuits. Dating does go on in Atlantis and the leaders-military and civilian condone it. That again points to the higher-ups idea of what they eventually want to see Atlantis become-a full-functioning, safe world for humans to inhabit again. Military bases have family homes, schools, civilian jobs etc. etc. I firmly believe that security is the aim so that same type environment can be on Atlantis.

Teyla's people are under constant fear of attack. They have warriors and yet, they also manage to love, work and live within what perameters their world offers them. Atlantis, in time will be no different. I hope sooner than later.

Exactly! You said it so much better than I did.

I'm dying to see Elizabeth get to marry a couple.

That would be awesome. And maybe give her and Shep a few hints as well, yes?

Maybe Carson and Cadman down the line? I hope they give them the Honeymoon Suite right next to Rodney's quarters.

Oh you are just mean.

AL

[Melyanna]

Shameless plugging time.

I've completed Heir Apparent, and the final chapter is available here.

(And normally I wouldn't do this, but I know there are a lot of fans of Saché's vids here and a lot of West Wing fans, so I'm going to drop a link to her latest vid, The Smartest People in the World. If you ask me, this one's hysterical whether you watched the show or not. )

[grumpyRN]

season three spoiler for Spoilerfix.com:

Spoiler:

Episode 3.11 - Phantom: The Team tries to get back to Atlantis but someone sabotaged the gate, so they can't get back. On top of that, they're drawing fire. Other people fighting alongside Sheppard are under influence of Wraith technology, and they start behaving strange. Later even the tea is experiencing weird things.

[Luz]

I think it's also telling that Carson and Rodney are being so open in their own amorous pursuits. Dating does go on in Atlantis and the leaders-military and civilian condone it. That again points to the higher-ups idea of what they eventually want to see Atlantis become-a full-functioning, safe world for humans to inhabit again. Military bases have family homes, schools, civilian jobs etc. etc. I firmly believe that security is the aim so that same type environment can be on Atlantis.

Meh!, tried visiting other threads *yanws*, but it gets quite repetitive when coincidentialy people suddenly pop up to show support to certain people after having *just* signed up just a minute ago. Gee isn't it funny how coincidences like this keep happening? .

Back on the topic i can't get tired of, i love your repopulating the earth idea Bama, and i agree, i think SGC realised they would form bonds, and possibly families, because after all it was possible when they left that they'd never be coming back. So it couldn't be so unexpected for them to discover that John and Elizabeth's feeling have trascended those of formal profesionalism to go into more personal territory, which is an on-going proces.

[hopalong]

Excellent point. If you want to be accepted into a new society, you must try and assimilate somewhat. I find it rather telling that the leaders of the free world made the decision to blend mixed sex civilian scientists and other personel in with mixed sex military personel on what basically amounts to a re-colonization mission. I think that tone is made very clear in 'Rising' when the crew are told this very well might be a one-way ticket. They all had to accept up front that it could be their life. We see the theme repeated in 'Home' in relation to John and Elizabeth as well. They both see themselves as Atlanteans rather than Earthlings and they're OK with that. They understand and take on the importance of the task they face but they didn't leave their hearts on the other side of the Stargate.

I think it's also telling that Carson and Rodney are being so open in their own amorous pursuits. Dating does go on in Atlantis and the leaders-military and civilian condone it. That again points to the higher-ups idea of what they eventually want to see Atlantis become-a full-functioning, safe world for humans to inhabit again. Military bases have family homes, schools, civilian jobs etc. etc. I firmly believe that security is the aim so that same type environment can be on Atlantis.

Teyla's people are under constant fear of attack. They have warriors and yet, they also manage to love, work and live within what perameters their world offers them. Atlantis, in time will be no different. I hope sooner than later. I'm dying to see Elizabeth get to marry a couple. Maybe Carson and Cadman down the line? I hope they give them the Honeymoon Suite right next to Rodney's quarters.

Okay, I get that Elizabeth would have the authority to marry a couple should they desire it. But if it comes to that for Sparky, who would marry them? Caldwell?

Or, now that there is regular transport to and from Earth, would people just go home to be with their families for the event? (Although, that wouldn't apply if someone chose to marry an Athosian).

[FoolishPleasure]

season three spoiler for Spoilerfix.com:

Spoiler:

Episode 3.11 - Phantom: The Team tries to get back to Atlantis but someone sabotaged the gate, so they can't get back. On top of that, they're drawing fire. Other people fighting alongside Sheppard are under influence of Wraith technology, and they start behaving strange. Later even the tea is experiencing weird things.

Yes, tea is very weird. I don't know why the British are so fond of it.

*LOL* I know you didn't make the typo - SpoilerFix did. Thanks for the teaser info - sounds like a good episode!

[Ronnikins]

Yes, tea is very weird. I don't know why the British are so fond of it.

*LOL* I know you didn't make the typo - SpoilerFix did. Thanks for the teaser info - sounds like a good episode!

Heehee! I thought the tea was spiked when I first read that. "I'm a little teapot, short and stout....oh, wait...I'm describing myself... Thanks GrumpyRN for that.

As to who will marry S/W? I'm thinking they will marry in Atlantis amongst their friends and colleagues and I would imagine Caldwell would have the power to be a marriage celebrant since he's the "captain" of the "ship". Or maybe one expedition member who is a Justice of the Peace. Maybe Mel and her uncanny knack of knowing unusual facts can set us straight.

Now, I want this BSG director, Michael Rymer, to work on Atlantis....what he says can very well apply to SGA and make it more character driven.

"...as the actors have continued to inhabit their roles they've influenced the direction of the writers. (TPTB) are very responsive to what they watch in daily rushes, so chemistry between an actor and his character as well as the chemistry between various characters have caused the series to evolve so it's not as reliant on action-driven plots.."
He goes on to say
"...TV is essentially about people that you want to hang out with week after week. It doesn't matter how clever the stories are or how fantastic the special effects are, you basically have to want to spend time with the characters you're watching."

Now I'm hoping the Stargate TPTB have read this interview and jotted down the handy hints. There's no denying the chemistry between S/W and that would have been obvious in the SGA daily rushes. And how true is that statement that you need to be invested in these characters to watch what happens week after week. Action and CGI can only go so far.

On a more superficial note. Has anybody been crazy obsessed observant enough to notice how many episodes end with John seeking Elizabeth out or, at least, have the two of them in the same end scene? eg. like BIS, CM, The Tower, Rising.