Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Bama]

I agree that Liz does need a way to "vent". Basic TaeKwonDo would be good for her to undertake as exercise and a way to pick up basic self-defense moves as well.

John should teach her.

See, I could envision Elizabeth making clear to all involved that she was only learning as self-defense and that she had no intentions of aggressive offensive training for the sake of learning to 'fight'. That, to me would be fitting in her personality. I've never bought into the idea that Elizabeth is some kind of Jane Fonda -totally opposed to violence -wannabe. While I do think she believes strongly in diplomancy as the first line of defense, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the woman has a fighter's spirit inside when pushed to the wall with no other recourse. I think she's shown John that she can be what she needs to be and in turn, he's shown her that he believes in her and that sometimes the best policy is to wait and strategize before the volley. I can just see them constantly absorbing each other and integrating each other.

[Bama]

*imagines Liz all sweaty, beating the crap out of a punch bag...with John holding it.*

*hehe*

Imagine John licking...

Er...

*wipes brow* You guys STOP IT!

I'm convinced that John is turned on by her mind and persona and leader skills as much or more than he is her bod right now. And that's a GOOD thing. It's a HUGE thing. Just the way he 'tossed' that

Spoiler:

Mensa

comment out to her reminding her how smart he is had a ring of 'See? I am *so* a suitable and worthy mate for you'.

The man is So. Married.
Poor guy. Doesn't even know how whuped he is.

[GateByte]

I'm convinced that John is turned on by her mind and persona and leader skills as much or more than he is her bod right now. And that's a GOOD thing. It's a HUGE thing.

Yeah, I think that too. If he wasn't turned on by her brain etc. then it would be like she's just another one of *those* other girls we've seen him with. I'd like to believe he's not like that at all, and that he sees Liz as a person, rather than just another *hot chick*. Shows he has depth as a character, and sees people for more than their external appearances.

Just the way he 'tossed' that

Spoiler:

Mensa

comment out to her reminding her how smart he is had a ring of 'See? I am *so* a suitable and worthy mate for you'.

Yeah, the

Spoiler:

Mensa

thing was very cute. Shows her he's not just a mindless guy with a big gun who likes to blow stuff up. Rather that he's smart, even if he doesn't like to show it.

[Southern Red]

I like self defense Liz with John either teaching her or being surprised when he discovers her taking lessons with Teyla. Not Ronon. We get enough nonsense with the crowd trying to ship those two already. Oh wait. If Teyla teaches her then of course John would be there only to ogle Teyla. Even though he would never once take his eyes off Elizabeth. Hmm. Wonder what she would wear for the training sessions?

I don't say it enough, but I love all the fics that you guys recommend. I read way too much of it. *okay all of it* I haven't been to the library in months.

[Bama]

Elizabeth uses her newly learned fighting skills to challenge the 'Prom Queen' from 'Tower' to a duel.



"Bring it on Barbie!"

[GateByte]

Elizabeth uses her newly learned fighting skills to challenge the 'Prom Queen' from 'Tower' to a duel.

http://www.mezimages.com/image/lizlo...GROUND-222.jpg

"Bring it on Barbie!"

ROFLMAO. Haha, don't think she'd need fighting skills to win that fight. However, you never know, the Tower chick might just have her some mighty fancy dueling moves.

[Lizlove]

Teaching fight techniques to Liz? That's a definite nope for me!
She can defend herself alone and d**n good too by the way. She doesn't need to fight or use a gun to get what she wants. Well, that's what I think about it
I loooooooooove our Liz like that and I think we shouldn't change her by making her do things she's against since the very beginning!

[smallgirl]

.
I like Liz as a diplomat, not as a soldier - same way I used to like Daniel as the geeky archeologist. Now that he can shoot any weapon and is the same as all the other soldiers, he has lost something fun as a character. I like having at least one of the main characters have that bit of innocence about them. That doesn't mean make Liz the "Mary Sue" person, as she can still be forceful and strong without using brute strength.

I guess I'm saying I want to see Liz be the brains (common sense-wise) of the group, while others can be the brawn or, as in the case of McKay, the scientific genius.

I agree with you and Merlin. Although I enjoyed TLG because we got to see Torri kick butt, it wasn't Weir so that aspect didn't apply. We have assumed that Weir cannot do any physical fighting because we haven't seen it but then she hasn't needed to. I wouldn't be surprised if Weir could defend herself it push came to shove, she may have had the kind of female self-defence lessons that people have mentioned. However it isn't part of her role on Atlantis so she leaves all of that to those who are trained for it. I do enjoy having a strong, female leader who hasn't felt the need to become a warrior to prove she can match up to the men. I totally agree with FP about Daniel, although ultimately it made sense that he'd have to become more physically proficient due to all the dangerous situations SG-1 always got into, I did prefer the early less macho version. McKay has had to learn to fire a gun and use it on occasion but mostly he lets the others on the team handle that kind of stuff and I'd prefer it to remain that way. I wouldn't mind an episode where Weir is required by necessity to go outside her normal sphere of activity because it's good for character development. Ideally I'd love an episode where it's just Sheppard and Weir alone, and he's incapacitated in some way and she has to be the one doing everything but that's my shipper mind working overtime. To see her pushed beyond her limit and him powerless to act and reliant on her would be good for both of them character wise. I love seeing characters outside their comfort zones.

[Melyanna]

On Elizabeth and hand-to-hand combat – most people I know in real life are startled to find out that I did kickboxing all through high school. It started out as self defense, but it turned out to be really good exercise for me, and I'm built well for it. It was a great physical outlet and just terrific exercise.

When I went off to school in my freshman year of college, my dad had a long talk with me about all kinds of stuff to expect, but when we got to the issue of safety, he told me that he knew that I knew more than he did about how to overpower, disable, or kill a man. I've never had to use anything I learned in either kickboxing or self defense, thank God, but I feel safer knowing that I can protect myself.

Now, something related to the topic. After Siege III aired, Major Fischer and I were talking about Brad Wright's promise that Elizabeth (meaning in her right mind) would never hold a gun. I can certainly understand why they made that choice, but Major Fischer pointed out that it was really rather irresponsible of her to not have a gun while there were Wraith running around the city. I don't think anyone would have expected her to use it, but if she were caught in a truly dire situation, like she's the only one left alive and surrounded by Wraith, she should have had a way to end it rather than be captured or suffer a far worse death. I really feel that Siege II could have benefited from a scene where Sheppard or Ford could have tried to get her to take a sidearm, for that very reason. I'm sure she wouldn't have taken it, but it would have made for good drama.

As for some very basic self defense, like what I wrote in Lessons, I don't think that's unreasonable. As Elizabeth gets out more in the galaxy, she's going to find herself more and more in situations where she needs to be able to get herself out of trouble. And as for the Athosian stick fighting, it's something I'd like to see just because it puts Elizabeth out of her element. I like that kind of thing every once in a while. I certainly wouldn't want to see her in the gym every other episode. Besides, it's good exercise, and she's got to keep that dancer's figure.

[Bama]

I agree with you and Merlin. Although I enjoyed TLG because we got to see Torri kick butt, it wasn't Weir so that aspect didn't apply. We have assumed that Weir cannot do any physical fighting because we haven't seen it but then she hasn't needed to. I wouldn't be surprised if Weir could defend herself it push came to shove, she may have had the kind of female self-defence lessons that people have mentioned. However it isn't part of her role on Atlantis so she leaves all of that to those who are trained for it. I do enjoy having a strong, female leader who hasn't felt the need to become a warrior to prove she can match up to the men. I totally agree with FP about Daniel, although ultimately it made sense that he'd have to become more physically proficient due to all the dangerous situations SG-1 always got into, I did prefer the early less macho version. McKay has had to learn to fire a gun and use it on occasion but mostly he lets the others on the team handle that kind of stuff and I'd prefer it to remain that way. I wouldn't mind an episode where Weir is required by necessity to go outside her normal sphere of activity because it's good for character development. Ideally I'd love an episode where it's just Sheppard and Weir alone, and he's incapacitated in some way and she has to be the one doing everything but that's my shipper mind working overtime. To see her pushed beyond her limit and him powerless to act and reliant on her would be good for both of them character wise. I love seeing characters outside their comfort zones.

Look people are we going to have rumble about this?

I can actually see good argument for both 'sides' though I tend to lean toward 'It wouldn't hurt to learn a few moves and would give her an outlet'. Rambo she ain't. Actually, I've never been overly 'turned on' by those machoish fighting type women on screen. Being a southern belle like I am and all *cough*, I actually don't mind looking to a man for physical assistance if I need it. And I like the feminine touch that Elizabeth brings to the crew as the head honcho and as an off-set to the soldier man!John. I do like your last few sentences a lot, lot, lot here SG. I'd love to see *her* have to use everything about herself to save one John Sheppard. SR's 'shippy meter' might explode though. Man, between these fics and reading you guy's ideas, I'm convinced we could write this sparky love thang right if they'd let us!

BTW, my husband, who was ex-army airborne/sp. ops who knows all the karate and was a champion stick fighter in his unit insists that they always 'overstate' what the women can actually do against a man physically. He is emphatic that while Teyla is a great fighter, that a larger man would take her down eventually just about everytime. Something about the power of swings and such...I just tune him out generally when he laughs and rants on it. But he insists that he likes Elizabeth a lot because she uses her head instead of trying to do things she cannot physically match-up on. He also liked Scully a lot because while she could fire a gun with deadly accuracy, she always -in his mind logically- got her small ass handed to her by men in a fistfight. So perhaps, convincing Elizabeth to be willing to learn and fire a handgun might be her best defense.

[Merlin7]

Well...I obviously disagree and truly believe she badly needs a physical type outlet of some sorts to help cope and Atlantis is a very dangerous place compared to say 'mission control' where Landry resides. She's not exactly in diplomatic waters all the time here and when she is, those waters would tend to be more dangerous than on Earth. I look at it like this. Training for female self-defense just makes sense for every woman. I trained and I certainly know how to use my .22 MM that I carry in my car. That choice may not be right for everyone but it's right for me. However, in Elizabeth's case, it makes more sense that she learn to use her natural physical abilities to learn to help get herself out of some trouble she's in sometime. I don't think she'd like to be thought of as a simpering, helpless female liability out in the galaxy as she diplomatically wheels and deals with other worlds. The more she can help those around her protect her-the better in my view. That doesn't mean she'd have to turn into Teyla overnight. Heck, Teyla's been fighting most of her life to get to where she is. Basic self-defense could mean her life and/or the lives of some of the brave men and women that help protect her. It just makes sense.

And Merlin, since you don't like the idea-what instead would you suggest as a positive outlet for her in Atlantis? I really do think she needs one.

I can see her doing Yoga, just like Torri enjoys doing. I can see Weir and Heightmeyer doing Yoga together even. And, I can even see her taking a morning run with Sheppard on occasion.

[Merlin7]

I tend to agree with you. We have Teyla and Ronon who can do the martial arts stuff, and John has a big gun ( ), so I really don't want to see Elizabeth kicking butt on a regular basis. It would be nice to see her "off hours", like working out in the gym or jogging to keep in shape, but I don't want her doing the Kali thing, or beating on anyone, even in training.

I like Liz as a diplomat, not as a soldier - same way I used to like Daniel as the geeky archeologist. Now that he can shoot any weapon and is the same as all the other soldiers, he has lost something fun as a character. I like having at least one of the main characters have that bit of innocence about them. That doesn't mean make Liz the "Mary Sue" person, as she can still be forceful and strong without using brute strength.

I guess I'm saying I want to see Liz be the brains (common sense-wise) of the group, while others can be the brawn or, as in the case of McKay, the scientific genius.

Yes. This and what Gatebyte says below, I feel the same way. Everyone else IS the brawn. Even Carson and Rodney have used guns. I dont' want Weir to go that route. I liked it in CONDEMNED when she had Lorne and the other marines as her physical SHOW OF FORCE but WEir used her attitude and her words to get through the the head dude. ::Forgot his name:: I mean...yeah...she had the guns to support her, but in the end it was about what she said.

[Vixen]

This topic again, heh (although, there hasn't been a topic not discussed at least two or three times over in this thread) .

She fights with her mind and wields her words as a sword but if she's learned something from this experience it's that sometimes words are not enough if the enemy is evil enough.

And this is one of the main reasons why I like the idea of Elizabeth knowing at least basic fighting skills. Because we know how dangerous Atlantis can get, and because yes, there are others whose job is to protect the civilians, but what if (as I've repeated on this topic) there was no one there to protect her? What if the poor woman was left on her own? Not everyone will listen to words (her real weapons), and it's then that things can heat up dangerously for her. As others, I don't want her to be like Teyla or Ronon, but I do want to see that she's at least capable of defending herself if bad comes to worse. And here's a good opportunity for some Teyla/Elizabeth bonding with the Athosian teaching her how to defend herself Even if my shipper heart would love it to be John (but imagine the pages of discussion on this thread afterwards - whoa).

[AngelQueen]

I have to say that I'd go for a middle ground on the whole learning to fight thing. I would never want to see Lizzie turn into Rambo!Lizzie either. *shudders* That's just... eek... so not right. (Phoebus!Lizzie being the only exception. It technically wasn't Elizabeth.) But having her learn a little bit, just enough to defend herself when the situation warrants it, I think that's just practical to her current situation. She's out in a hostile galaxy where not even Atlantis is 100% safe. Just as Rodney had to learn to use a gun for while he is out on missions with the rest of the team, Elizabeth, I think, needs to know how to defend herself physically.

Of course, that definitely doesn't mean that she needs to go into their shooting range, borrow Ronon's gun, and start shooting at the targets. If that actually happened, I'd be out there rioting alongside the rest of those who would be equally freaked out by such a thing. I so *never* want to see a gun in Lizzie's hand, to tell the truth.

It all comes down to the fact that Lizzie does need some sort of physical outlet. The suggestions that have been laid out i.e. running, etc. are good ones. Just something that shows that Lizzie does more than get tossed into her office to read reports and the Sparky forums while John and Co. are out saving the galaxy from crazy women who keep eyeing John like he's a side of beef.

AQ

[Lizlove]

Teaching fight techniques to Liz? That's a definite nope for me!
She can defend herself alone and d**n good too by the way. She doesn't need to fight or use a gun to get what she wants. Well, that's what I think about it
I loooooooooove our Liz like that and I think we shouldn't change her by making her do things she's against since the very beginning!

Well after reading all your arguments I can admit it changed my perspective lil' bit. It could be a great opportunity for Liz to learn such abilities, she would then be capable of defending herself with words as well as with violence although I don't like to associate these two words *Liz and violence*. I think Liz is the heart of the city, the glue that keeps them all together, the voice of reason *I hope you understand what I mean *. But I was thinking about one thing: when they went to Atlantis, didn't the members of the expedition needed at least a bit of basic training? It's just a question because, you know Liz is a diplomat/negotiator so that means she goes *went* to other countries *like she said to Simon in Rising, Part 1*, and sometimes those countries aren't always safe *that's why we need the negotiator* so doesn't that mean that job does need a basic training too? It's just a random question but I admit it's been bugging me since the beginning of this show.