Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Like polarization. Put the writers glasses 90 degrees to your own and the picture disappears altogether.

Which is usually the case in TV relationships. The writers are only interested in the build-up, the shippers always want the resolution.

I also think the relationship could've worked with good writers, but good relationship writers are hard to find, and they would have to be really good writers. Because if this were a real life situation, I think the whole manager-subordinate relationship is doomed to fail. And spectacularly.

Too bad the writers of Bones had that backwards. But at least they proved the shippers want some build up too.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Smutty Tuesday!

[JT-2]

I'm a bit late to the conversation, but here goes...

I think a relationship between the two in their early job roles would be very problematic. I have the same argument against all the other John ships too, for that matter. They all have a superior/subordinate role, which they showed for years on SG-1 as a big deal. Yes, none of the John ships have it quite as bad as Sam/Jack because they're not in the same organization, and I've seen it argued that Teyla wasn't John's subordinate because she just "chose" to follow his orders and she isn't in the military. But the fact is that she DID follow his orders. So did Rodney and Ronon. And if they didn't, then John would dress them down. The same as Elizabeth dressed John down when he didn't follow orders like in Hot Zone.

So in the framework of the show, I don't think it would have felt realistic to have them in a relationship in their leadership roles. I remember another thread from years ago where this was discussed, and there were a few people who said they had always liked the dynamic between John and Elizabeth but couldn't get on board due to the employer/employee stuff. But then in Season 4, Elizabeth isn't John's boss any more so it seems like all bets are off. I remember people in that thread saying they thought the ship was then completely plausible.

So if they had rescued Elizabeth as they SHOULD HAVE, and brought back Torri as they SHOULD HAVE, then John and Elizabeth could have easily had a relationship with Elizabeth being a diplomat/etc., who sometimes goes out with the team.

[Falcon Horus]

I have the same argument against all the other John ships too, for that matter. They all have a superior/subordinate role...

Kate/John doesn't have that... and she completely ignores the doctor/patient-status.

[JT-2]

Kate/John doesn't have that... and she completely ignores the doctor/patient-status.

Sorry, sweetie, that I forgot that one. Although, if she's the only psychologist then it does have the doctor/patient thing going on, but I don't think there was ever canon proof that she was the ONLY one.

Oh and I found the link referencing the discussion from years ago.... http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/8...cussion/page52

Killdeer really shares my brain in her posts in that little thread. Is she still around?

[Falcon Horus]

Killdeer really shares my brain in her posts in that little thread. Is she still around?

Yup, Killdeer's still around.

[JT-2]

Having said all that, I will also say that I've read fic where they're in a relationship in their leadership roles and have no problems with it if it's handled well.

It's only on the show that I'd have an issue. But like all things, if the writing was good enough I'm sure there would be ways to get around it. But asking for good writing with M&M in charge is like asking for Congress to accomplish something.

[ajay]

Having said all that, I will also say that I've read fic where they're in a relationship in their leadership roles and have no problems with it if it's handled well.

Oooh, got any examples? I haven't read any John/Elizabeth fic yet.

[JT-2]

Oooh, got any examples? I haven't read any John/Elizabeth fic yet.

I'll try to find some tomorrow. Sleeping pills have kicked in and I'm getting loopy.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

I have a question; to what point is actually John, Elizabeth’s subordinate?

I believe that in the beginning, season 1, he was intended to be her subordinate, but somehow, I always felt that changed, along the way. I started seeing them making decisions, most of the time, together, and to me, most of the times, they worked as equals, in an equal level, not exactly on a subordinate/boss level. Not to mention that in more than one occasion, John actually followed the orders of the Air Force (as he should, being an Air Force member) and it was like if Elizabeth wasn’t there.

For example:

When John talks to Woolsey in Misbegotten, he says that he supported Elizabeth’s decision. So if he was her subordinate he would have to accept it whether he liked it or not. But the way he says it, it’s exactly like if they both had discussed it, which they probably did, on an equal level and in the end he had decided to support her;

In Irresistible, when John says to Elizabeth that no one goes through the Gate without his authorization. Okay, Elizabeth was not herself at that moment, but as a subordinate, should he have said that to her?

In The Return, when they are ordered to leave the city, John is taking orders from O’Neill and not from Elizabeth (when O’Neill orders him to go and start organizing things for everyone to leave). Okay, John is Air Force, but in Atlantis, shouldn’t he follow Elizabeth’s orders, if indeed he is her subordinate? (Just like he did when Elizabeth ordered him to go with Colonel Sumner in Rising.)

In First Strike, John totally went against Elizabeth’s orders and just followed the orders given to him by the Air Force.

And I am sure there must be other examples.

So, John is under the orders of the Air Force and as such is on the same level as Elizabeth, or is he actually following Elizabeth’s orders, being Elizabeth the head of the expedition, being Elizabeth the one in charge of the base in which he was stationed?

[Falcon Horus]

I have a question; to what point is actually John, Elizabeth’s subordinate?

So, John is under the orders of the Air Force and as such is on the same level as Elizabeth, or is he actually following Elizabeth’s orders, being Elizabeth the head of the expedition, being Elizabeth the one in charge of the base in which he was stationed?

To the point that she's in charge of the expedition, unless otherwise stated... Atlantis was/is a civilian expedition with a military contingent as protection.

When John talks to Woolsey in Misbegotten, he says that he supported Elizabeth’s decision. So if he was her subordinate he would have to accept it whether he liked it or not. But the way he says it, it’s exactly like if they both had discussed it, which they probably did, on an equal level and in the end he had decided to support her;

To me, it seemed most of the time Elizabeth conferred with John especially when it matters to the safety of the expedition. So yes, they work on an equal level. She values his input and council.

In Irresistible, when John says to Elizabeth that no one goes through the Gate without his authorization. Okay, Elizabeth was not herself at that moment, but as a subordinate, should he have said that to her?

Yes, he was in his right to overrule her decisions. Like you say, she was not in her right mind.

In The Return, when they are ordered to leave the city, John is taking orders from O’Neill and not from Elizabeth (when O’Neill orders him to go and start organizing things for everyone to leave). Okay, John is Air Force, but in Atlantis, shouldn’t he follow Elizabeth’s orders, if indeed he is her subordinate? (Just like he did when Elizabeth ordered him to go with Colonel Sumner in Rising.)

If I'm not mistaken than O'Neill takes charge of Atlantis at that point, when him and Woolsey relief Elizabeth and the expedition of their duties. The (arrogant) Ancients have returned to reclaim their city.

In First Strike, John totally went against Elizabeth’s orders and just followed the orders given to him by the Air Force.

Again, at that point the military takes charge of the expedition and the city, shifting the leadership from Elizabeth to the military. This means, John has a different master to obey.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

*high-fives Falcon Horus* Great answers to those questions; I think you summed everything up better than I would have.

[Falcon Horus]

*high-fives Falcon Horus* Great answers to those questions; I think you summed everything up better than I would have.

I have my moments...

Continues to complain about the lack of Kate in the SGA - 10 year's later fest...

[ajay]

Good points indeed. Superior/subordinate in a civilian setting doesn't mean you follow orders blindly. I'm a manager and make all decisions in conjunction with my team. The only thing they don't get an absolute say on is how much they get paid. And that doesn't apply to John/Elizabeth

Wait...I wonder if they were getting paid...
And if so, how would that have worked when they were out of touch with Earth?

[Falcon Horus]

Wait...I wonder if they were getting paid...
And if so, how would that have worked when they were out of touch with Earth?

Considering they were employed by either the military or the government, I'd say yes they got paid.