Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

hehehe - all this teacher talk has resulted in an advertisement at the bottom of the page for getting a Degree in Education "Want to become a teacher?"

Don'tcha just love those targeted ads?

[smalltowngirl]

Thanks to Southern Red and Nolamom for their help. I’ll see if I can get that to work.
I should clarify something I said yesterday – I don’t think anyone will pitch a proposal to MGM to write some SGA stories unconnected to the Legacy series, I just think the reactions would be instructive and very funny if somebody did.
Although. . .if someone went in with assurances that it would all fit in with Legacy, of course, and then wrote something that (a) fit the actual series, and (b) respected all the characters – well, from the discussion here, the controlling powers at MGM either haven’t seen the series or don’t read the manuscripts. Probably both. At any rate, the resulting kerfuffle would be more entertaining than some of the fourth or fifth season episodes.
If I may be allowed to beat on that deadest of dead horses, what I call the Sheyla conundrum. Actually this ties back to the Legacy books too, because it should’ve worked. Not that everyone would’ve seen the show that way, or liked it, but it really didn’t work the way the writers might have intended.
I don’t think the actors can be faulted; they did everything they could with the material available to them. (I was one of those people who didn’t look at blogs or read fanfic or anything until long after the series was over.)
From what little I know the m&m boys (PM and JM) – and maybe only half of them – were the only ones who were outspokenly Sheyla. Maybe Messrs. Cooper and Wright started out with that idea, but after a while it seemed like they dropped it. (“Before I Sleep,” boys. Not too Sheyla, if that was the plan.)
To me, there were two problems with the whole J/T thing. One was internal to the story, one was outside. First the internal: Let’s say John and Teyla got together, and in the natural way of things, Teyla got pregnant. Does anyone – knowing the character of John as it was written – think for one minute that John would let his pregnant wife stay in a place of so much danger? Or a child, especially a newborn, if there was a place where she/they could go? Can anybody really see that? And would Teyla leave? Would she just turn her back on the rest of the Athosians? As she was written in the series, of course not. The only solution would be to move the whole bang shooting match, all the Athosians, to Milky Way. It could be done, but I’m not sure these tptb had the horses to do it.
As for the outside objection, Beautiful-Alien-Princess-Falls-For-Dashing-Earth-Hero is old. At least 101 years old, because Edgar Rice Burroughs used it in the John Carter series in 1912. Pulp writers used it all the time in the 1930s, and it was a staple of the original Star Trek. And thanks to the tptw’s bungling, if Sheyla was what they wanted as the finale in the movie, they ended up with Feisty Single Mom Lands the Man of Her Dreams, which is – well, let’s be kind and say it’s a plot that’s well used.
So – a story that was cutting edge in 1912, all the rage in the 1930s, kind of a running joke in the 1960s, all ending in a finale that’s a staple of Harlequin Romances. If I’m the writer, I have to ask myself, what can I do to make this interesting and compelling? And in this case the evidence that tptw could make it interesting is, well, not conclusive. That’s why I think Mr. Mallozzi, for all his protestations to the contrary, probably thanks God every night that the movie was never made, and he doesn’t have to explain what he was trying to do to prospective employers.
One more thing and I’ll shut up.

[smalltowngirl]

(Wow. I just stumbled across a whole new section. Apparently you can talk to people individually. Who knew?)
John and Elizabeth, now – that’s got some meat to it. Tptw may have stumbled on it by accident, but it was genius.
John’s the tough guy, the guy who’s pushed the envelope and pushed superior buttons everywhere he went. What does a guy like that do when he meets someone who has his number, and it’s a girl? Liz challenged him, didn’t buy into the Sheppard way of annoying a supervisor as a way to be left alone.
One of the really intriguing storylines of S1, and I doubt the tptw intended this, was John learning about command. I can’t remember the episode, but somewhere along the way Liz says both O’Neill and Sumner warned her John wasn’t ready. She gets that, but she also sees what he could be, and she sticks with him, fights for him when necessary (the plan to replace John with Caldwell in the second season opener or thereabouts).
It’s different from the Hollywood’s same old, same old. Liz is John’s equal, which is rare in television and movies especially. What experience I’ve had with modern movies and TV (and admittedly it’s not a lot) is that the so-called tough girl is really just the girlfriend, or she’s really a ***** on wheels and betrays or mistreats him, or she’s a guy’s fantasy of a tough girl and not believable. I think they accidentally made her the right kind of tough girl, and it’s too bad they didn’t recognize what they’d stumbled into. Granted, I don’t think they cared whether or not women were fans, especially after the m&m boys took over.
Or Mr. Flanigan and Ms. Higginson took the material and turned it into the right kind of tough guy and tough girl. It’s interesting to note (I read it here a few days ago) apparently it was Connor Trineer who came up with the idea that Michael was in love with Teyla. You’d think the writers would’ve thought of that.
Mr. Flanigan and Ms. Higginson deserve most of the credit for it working, IMO, regardless of what the writers did.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

next time USE [SPOILER] boxes for your posts so you won't clutter up the forum so the moderators won't get angry.

[Sequoia Hope]

In that case, it's good you're getting a head start. Get ready for an exciting year.

I will! History is one of my favorite subjects, especially U.S. history, so I'm really looking forward to this year.

Thanks to Southern Red and Nolamom for their help. I’ll see if I can get that to work.
I should clarify something I said yesterday – I don’t think anyone will pitch a proposal to MGM to write some SGA stories unconnected to the Legacy series, I just think the reactions would be instructive and very funny if somebody did.
Although. . .if someone went in with assurances that it would all fit in with Legacy, of course, and then wrote something that (a) fit the actual series, and (b) respected all the characters – well, from the discussion here, the controlling powers at MGM either haven’t seen the series or don’t read the manuscripts. Probably both. At any rate, the resulting kerfuffle would be more entertaining than some of the fourth or fifth season episodes.
If I may be allowed to beat on that deadest of dead horses, what I call the Sheyla conundrum. Actually this ties back to the Legacy books too, because it should’ve worked. Not that everyone would’ve seen the show that way, or liked it, but it really didn’t work the way the writers might have intended.
I don’t think the actors can be faulted; they did everything they could with the material available to them. (I was one of those people who didn’t look at blogs or read fanfic or anything until long after the series was over.)
From what little I know the m&m boys (PM and JM) – and maybe only half of them – were the only ones who were outspokenly Sheyla. Maybe Messrs. Cooper and Wright started out with that idea, but after a while it seemed like they dropped it. (“Before I Sleep,” boys. Not too Sheyla, if that was the plan.)
To me, there were two problems with the whole J/T thing. One was internal to the story, one was outside. First the internal: Let’s say John and Teyla got together, and in the natural way of things, Teyla got pregnant. Does anyone – knowing the character of John as it was written – think for one minute that John would let his pregnant wife stay in a place of so much danger? Or a child, especially a newborn, if there was a place where she/they could go? Can anybody really see that? And would Teyla leave? Would she just turn her back on the rest of the Athosians? As she was written in the series, of course not. The only solution would be to move the whole bang shooting match, all the Athosians, to Milky Way. It could be done, but I’m not sure these tptb had the horses to do it.
As for the outside objection, Beautiful-Alien-Princess-Falls-For-Dashing-Earth-Hero is old. At least 101 years old, because Edgar Rice Burroughs used it in the John Carter series in 1912. Pulp writers used it all the time in the 1930s, and it was a staple of the original Star Trek. And thanks to the tptw’s bungling, if Sheyla was what they wanted as the finale in the movie, they ended up with Feisty Single Mom Lands the Man of Her Dreams, which is – well, let’s be kind and say it’s a plot that’s well used.
So – a story that was cutting edge in 1912, all the rage in the 1930s, kind of a running joke in the 1960s, all ending in a finale that’s a staple of Harlequin Romances. If I’m the writer, I have to ask myself, what can I do to make this interesting and compelling? And in this case the evidence that tptw could make it interesting is, well, not conclusive. That’s why I think Mr. Mallozzi, for all his protestations to the contrary, probably thanks God every night that the movie was never made, and he doesn’t have to explain what he was trying to do to prospective employers.
One more thing and I’ll shut up.

(Wow. I just stumbled across a whole new section. Apparently you can talk to people individually. Who knew?)
John and Elizabeth, now – that’s got some meat to it. Tptw may have stumbled on it by accident, but it was genius.
John’s the tough guy, the guy who’s pushed the envelope and pushed superior buttons everywhere he went. What does a guy like that do when he meets someone who has his number, and it’s a girl? Liz challenged him, didn’t buy into the Sheppard way of annoying a supervisor as a way to be left alone.
One of the really intriguing storylines of S1, and I doubt the tptw intended this, was John learning about command. I can’t remember the episode, but somewhere along the way Liz says both O’Neill and Sumner warned her John wasn’t ready. She gets that, but she also sees what he could be, and she sticks with him, fights for him when necessary (the plan to replace John with Caldwell in the second season opener or thereabouts).
It’s different from the Hollywood’s same old, same old. Liz is John’s equal, which is rare in television and movies especially. What experience I’ve had with modern movies and TV (and admittedly it’s not a lot) is that the so-called tough girl is really just the girlfriend, or she’s really a ***** on wheels and betrays or mistreats him, or she’s a guy’s fantasy of a tough girl and not believable. I think they accidentally made her the right kind of tough girl, and it’s too bad they didn’t recognize what they’d stumbled into. Granted, I don’t think they cared whether or not women were fans, especially after the m&m boys took over.
Or Mr. Flanigan and Ms. Higginson took the material and turned it into the right kind of tough guy and tough girl. It’s interesting to note (I read it here a few days ago) apparently it was Connor Trineer who came up with the idea that Michael was in love with Teyla. You’d think the writers would’ve thought of that.
Mr. Flanigan and Ms. Higginson deserve most of the credit for it working, IMO, regardless of what the writers did.

I like the points you make here. John and Teyla would have been along the lines of "suave guy meets sexy chick" - very clichéd, and it might have tuned me out. Sparky, on the other hand, proved to be rich and compelling partly because, I think, what you said about Elizabeth being a "tough girl." She was a strong, independent woman from the very beginning, and John admired how she was steadfast in her own beliefs and not easily swayed by others. Offering him the opportunity to go to Atlantis despite others' qualifications proved just that.

Elizabeth definitely taught John the importance of discipline, and in addition, I think John also influenced Elizabeth with his propensity to act upon instinct. The episode you mentioned was "Hot Zone," and that scene of them in the end demonstrated how they were two different leaders with diverging approaches to a given situation. This is also another reason why the two of them make a strong pair: they learn from one another, they balance each other out, and they compensate for each other's weaknesses.

As a side note, it might help if the next time you post, you double space between paragraphs. It just makes the text easier to read, especially if your post is long.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

so i was rewatching the atlantis pilot "rising" last night and i maybe am looking too much into it but during certain scenes, Elizabeth kinda look liked nicole kidman's character "Dr. Julia Kelly" from the peacemaker.

[Southern Red]

That's an interesting analysis, smalltowngirl and in a logical world would make perfect sense. But showbiz is not logical. You are going on the huge assumption that something different would have been a good thing to these people. The last thing screenwriters are looking for is "different." In fact, there is a formula they use, and if you look closely at most TV shows and movies, you will see it. When did a show truly surprise you? There are a few around, Breaking Bad comes to mind, and they win awards. But then someone takes that show and makes it a new formula and pretty soon it's the same old same old. Princess of Mars has been the formula for SciFi since SciFi began and will continue to be until some brilliant writer who's not afraid to buck the norm stands up and makes something different. Look at Avatar for an example of putting a twist on the formula, but it's Princess of Mars all over again. I don't see that formula changing.

As for the books, I'm sure that multiple pitches have been made for other books. For some reason they thought the Legacy series would make them some money. That's all they care about, and right now Stargate is not something MGM cares about much at all. Everyone involved with the show, from producers down to actors at one time or another at least acknowledged that Sheyla was the love interest of choice. They played coy and didn't say when or how it would be done, but they never wavered from supporting it no matter how much we would like to point out that it wasn't obvious on screen. Sparky was never even a blip on their radar, but we are here to keep it alive and show them they were wrong. Sheyla didn't happen but the supporters of that ship still care about it and have a right to, so we can let them enjoy it in peace knowing that at least we didn't have to watch it happen.

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

Sparky, on the other hand, proved to be rich and compelling partly because, I think, what you said about Elizabeth being a "tough girl." She was a strong, independent woman from the very beginning, and John admired how she was steadfast in her own beliefs and not easily swayed by others. Offering him the opportunity to go to Atlantis despite others' qualifications proved just that.

Elizabeth definitely taught John the importance of discipline, and in addition, I think John also influenced Elizabeth with his propensity to act upon instinct. The episode you mentioned was "Hot Zone," and that scene of them in the end demonstrated how they were two different leaders with diverging approaches to a given situation. This is also another reason why the two of them make a strong pair: they learn from one another, they balance each other out, and they compensate for each other's weaknesses.

In the same vein as SR's comments about there being a formula in genre TV/film, the "strong, independent woman who is NOT a fighter" seems to be few and far between. So I appreciate it when I see female characters like that who are written and played well, and even more so when we get to see them have healthy working and personal relationships with others, whether male or female. Just like we got with Elizabeth and John.

[mandogater]

ROFL!



Well, thanks for shattering my idealistic expectations of the educational system.

Oh wait. Working for them for two years already did that.

Thanks! I'll be here all week. Possibly a little earlier than usual since I just got my hours cut.

This does not give me much confidence in my niece getting a good education.

[Annelantis]

smalltowngirl,

I totally agree with everything you said. Green for you.

I have been a shipper pretty much since the day I was born, though I only found out in the last year that there was a name for this compulsion I have. I have always been one as well who looked beyond the obvious and have been known for picking out couples in pilots, years before it was decided that they would get together.

John and Elizabeth was not the most obvious couple, it took me a few episodes to really see what was there but I knew straightaway that I didn't want John with Teyla. It was just boring and cliche.

I would, however, say that as a watcher of Stargate since the very beginning I am completely if the opinion that there is no stronger and more compelling female character in the franchise than Elizabeth Weir. She was incredibly intelligent, stood up for what she believed was right, was not intimidated by powerful figures, including the military, had common sense as well as heart and she was a civilian - she was one of us.

Her strength did not come from her ability to kick a*** or from technobabbly science that eventually saved the day. Her strength was her ability to use her words, to talk to people, to understand and to solve problems with discussion and negotiation. It was not something they utilised enough in the show, given that TPTW seemed far more interested in resolutions that involved blowing things up, shooting up the place or incomprehensible science (my personal bugbear of season 5 was the weapon that destroyed Wraith ships by messing with the frequency of their hyperdrives but did not bother to give any kind of explanation as to how this process also blew up stargates!)

She was an incredible character and could have been even more but TPTW created her and then didn't know what to do with her, in the end turning her into a glorified office manager. TH played her brilliantly as well. She was never over the top and her chemistry with not just JF but many of the cast was fascinating. I think it's a real shame that she has not been recognised for the work she did there and given something in the last few years that she can really get her teeth into - my personal opinion is that she would have played an incredible member of the team in Criminal Minds.

Look at me, this may have gone on longer than I meant it to. However, I'm not saying anything that I don't think is true. I just get a bit ranty when I get into this territory, particularly the treatment of women in Stargate land.

[Sparky She-Demon]

All of the truly interesting female characters on Stargate got royally ****ed!

[itsaparadox]

*Comes out of lurker mode for a moment*

I'm am really enjoying all of the discussions that have been going on for the last two days. And I agree with a great deal of it.

Annelantis, I read your latest chapter and loved it! I almost fell out of my chair earlier today when I saw the update

[Annelantis]

All of the truly interesting female characters on Stargate got royally ****ed!

That's totally true. The only one I think who didn't was Sam. And even then they messed about with her character when they brought her into Atlantis, turning her into a character that she was never meant to be.

[Annelantis]

*Comes out of lurker mode for a moment*

I'm am really enjoying all of the discussions that have been going on for the last two days. And I agree with a great deal of it.

Annelantis, I read your latest chapter and loved it! I almost fell out of my chair earlier today when I saw the update

I'm glad you liked it. Please don't end up hurting yourself on my account though, it may be late but until it's over there will come an update. If you'd like to know, the hubby read chapter 13 today and so it only needs some tweaks and will be ready to go up within two weeks I hope.

[Sparky She-Demon]

That's totally true. The only one I think who didn't was Sam. And even then they messed about with her character when they brought her into Atlantis, turning her into a character that she was never meant to be.

And why is it that the boring ones got all the attention?