Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[drewandian]

i have a livejournal related question...it's kinda stupid but i'm confused...

Spoiler:

i posted some fics i'd written years ago on the sparktober community for my daily contribution and got some screened comments from the sga_newsletter comm referencing them...what is that? and i'm assuming it's a good thing...?

[Pocus]

My other niece is down there for the wedding with her 1 month old baby. Just a bit worried, but her Dad, my brother, is there. They were trying to figure out contingency plans yesterday. My Sis in law is a photographer. I hope she gets some awesome weather pics.

[gateraid]

I know the moment has passed, but this discussion (and everyone's comments thereafter) was really interesting

I hadn't thought about it this way, but you are right. The character scenes did seem to almost always be between those 3 characters and someone else. Throw in a few John/Elizabeth and John/Rodney scenes and you've pretty much got all the character moments.

While many probably won't agree, this is why i think Carson and Rodney were better friends than John and Rodney (before Carson dropped below 55mph). The "you're my best friend" line in Sunday was thrown in (and an afterthought, so I discount it), but Rodney was more relaxed and more revealing around Carson - whereas John was the person he wanted to be like, looked up to, thought was cool, whatever.

For Teyla, it was Kate, plus a smattering of Carson. For Ronon, if it was alien/outsider related then it was Teyla, but he had some moments with keller too. Within the team, it took John almost killing Teyla before he told her about the afghanistan incident. John and Ronon got buddy/buddy when it seemed there was nobody left - Rodney had Keller, Teyla had Torren and Kanaan, Carter had <insert name here, but I think by this point it was NOBODY, and if it was 'sir', then it makes her getting command of Atlantis a mockery and an insult to her abilities> her job, Woolsey had ...his bent rulebook and the remnants of that stick that was up his butt back when he was the IOA representative

Also right. Ronon really did get the short end of the stick in S5. I always liked Ford and particularly liked his relationship with John. Ronon was more of an equal with John being less of a mentor than with Ford. That little change took away any chance for John to show his mature commander side and hurt his character a bit. But I loved his buddy moments with Ronon.

The buddy moments (John Ronon, Teyla Ronon) were the bits that saved Ronon for me. Otherwise the character was a waste of time. If it's true that JM wanted to leave in s6, I can't say I blame him, because they gave him less and less to do. When they took Ford off the team, it was akin to O'Neill leaving in s8 (not exactly the same, obviously) - it changed the team from being military plus civilians/aliens, to a group of people following (but not strictly obliged to follow) someone's lead.

Those 2 eps were excellent examples of how clueless these writers were when it came to ship. They assumed we would get their intentions without it being plainly shown on screen instead of vaguely hinted at. Leaving ship to the interpretation of the viewer opens the doors for all sorts of trouble.

This is what I took out of the show til the end of s3:

* John and Teyla were meant to be the ship. Hence the cave scene, and Bates's "feelings" line in s1. LFP put a knife through Teyla's heart though - her perception of John, or more correctly the man she thought he was, was shattered in that episode. They thought they would let it simmer until the end of the show (they likely assumed five seasons, hence their initial plans to tease Sheyla in s4 - IMO this would have been small hints, perhaps a kiss at the end of the season, with a true pairing in s5)

* John & Elizabeth confused them, as did their chemistry initially. BW illustrated this with the tag scene in 38 Minutes - he didn't know what Shep was going to say, but he wrote that scene with no idea how it would turn out. Guess what, it was kinda shippy, lol. At times, they deliberately teased the ship (Misbegotten), and at times they did it accidentally. But they were aware of it. It has always been a suspicion of mine that a small part of the reason they got rid of Weir was because having a Weir/Sheppard/Teyla triangle (even if they didn't write it that way) would have interfered with the show, as well as the proposed s4 Sheyla hinting. There are other, much bigger, reasons for Weir's departure, but.....moving on


* Rachel had more chemistry with practically everyone but Joe. I can't explain why, but I don't think this is completely my bias. Why else would she be shipped with so many people, and so easily? I can quite easily see K/T, R/T, C/T (at a pinch I can see J/T but that would be a "moving towards it" scenario). Look at Ronon's introduction - Teyla practically melts when he takes his shirt off, and does much the same thing later on when she's doing some 'interesting' stretches/positions on her bed later on. What?! How hard would it have been to throw in a similar scene with John? Later on, she gets some awesome scenes with him in Echoes, plus later he's the one who knows about her secret in s4, before John

* whilst the company line was "there is no ship" by the end of s3, this didn't hold true, because they'd had a chance to review the show by then (and the fan reaction) and adjust accordingly, they knew what worked and what didnt, and wrote scenes to suits

* I can almost buy Weir being injured in FS as an afterthought. It would make s4 interesting, wouldn't it? She'd have to volunteer to go on the Lifeline mission

Yes I KNOW this. It wants to make landfall right at my house. *sigh* Maybe the one good thing about this is all of the stoopid leaves in my yard will blow away.

Lol. They're calling it a Frankenstorm on the news here. Hopefully it doesn't live up to that name

[Falcon Horus]

Hmm, I'm a Phoenix. Which I guess we could look on as a reminder of

Spoiler:

how we fixed that frak-up in SGA Rising and got Kate back. *hugs Falcon*

Much love from me for that.


I'm taming dragons, which is kinda awesome!
However, googling Keeper of the Colt leads me to pages that involve horses.

[Pocus]

Falcon you are keeper the Samuel Colt gun that can kill anything! Even demons. That is a lot of power you have there. Use it for good my child!

[Southern Red]

apparently southwestern PA is primed to get a "perfect storm" thanks to Sandy from the south and some winter storm from the west. they're calling for crazy amounts of rain(possible snow BOO!) and wind on Monday. I also saw how all the pretty trees will become killer trees as the leaves get stuck in storm drains, causing flooding or becoming too heavy and causing power outages.

yay i love living in Pittsburgh in October/November

Yes I KNOW this. It wants to make landfall right at my house. *sigh* Maybe the one good thing about this is all of the stoopid leaves in my yard will blow away.

You girls stay safe up there. I think we are going to get moderate rain and winds, and like you, I am praying for no power outages. Mr. SR will get off if they close the government, which they usually do in situations like this.

Our leaves are just gorgeous right now. I'm sorry they are all going to be blown away. I remember a hurricane in North Carolina once when the leaves were still green. Afterwards, they were all blown against the houses and stuck there. Weird.

We also have to be concerned about the upcoming election. If power is still off in some areas, they will have to extend the voting hours and/or use paper ballots. We may not know the results for weeks. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

I know the moment has passed, but this discussion (and everyone's comments thereafter) was really interesting



While many probably won't agree, this is why i think Carson and Rodney were better friends than John and Rodney (before Carson dropped below 55mph). The "you're my best friend" line in Sunday was thrown in (and an afterthought, so I discount it), but Rodney was more relaxed and more revealing around Carson - whereas John was the person he wanted to be like, looked up to, thought was cool, whatever.

A lot of people complained about the stuff in Sunday that had Rodney and Carson as BFFs, but they must have forgotten Hide and Seek where it was shown that they were very friendly. Throughout the show, I think we got scenes of casual, comfortable friendliness between them. And you're right, Rodney wanted to be John. Coup d'Etat is a good example of that.

For Teyla, it was Kate, plus a smattering of Carson. For Ronon, if it was alien/outsider related then it was Teyla, but he had some moments with keller too. Within the team, it took John almost killing Teyla before he told her about the afghanistan incident. John and Ronon got buddy/buddy when it seemed there was nobody left - Rodney had Keller, Teyla had Torren and Kanaan, Carter had <insert name here, but I think by this point it was NOBODY, and if it was 'sir', then it makes her getting command of Atlantis a mockery and an insult to her abilities> her job, Woolsey had ...his bent rulebook and the remnants of that stick that was up his butt back when he was the IOA representative

Agree with all this. Teyla seemed to be a friend to everyone because of her gentle, kind nature, but I only saw her spending off duty time with Ronon. As for John/Ronon, I think they had a different kind of friendship, more like comrades in arms. In Sunday when they had their slumber party beer party, John didn't seem to know much about how Ronon spent his time.

The buddy moments (John Ronon, Teyla Ronon) were the bits that saved Ronon for me. Otherwise the character was a waste of time. If it's true that JM wanted to leave in s6, I can't say I blame him, because they gave him less and less to do. When they took Ford off the team, it was akin to O'Neill leaving in s8 (not exactly the same, obviously) - it changed the team from being military plus civilians/aliens, to a group of people following (but not strictly obliged to follow) someone's lead.

True. It was like they had one idea for Ronon in Runner and then couldn't figure out what else to do with him. I have realized while doing our Sunday postathons that Ronon and Teyla were underused starting in S2, so all the complaining about them being wallpapered in S4-5 came a bit late. They just never did have much of a role. They dragged Teyla's Wraith abilities out when they needed them, but that was it.

This is what I took out of the show til the end of s3:

* John and Teyla were meant to be the ship. Hence the cave scene, and Bates's "feelings" line in s1. LFP put a knife through Teyla's heart though - her perception of John, or more correctly the man she thought he was, was shattered in that episode. They thought they would let it simmer until the end of the show (they likely assumed five seasons, hence their initial plans to tease Sheyla in s4 - IMO this would have been small hints, perhaps a kiss at the end of the season, with a true pairing in s5)

* John & Elizabeth confused them, as did their chemistry initially. BW illustrated this with the tag scene in 38 Minutes - he didn't know what Shep was going to say, but he wrote that scene with no idea how it would turn out. Guess what, it was kinda shippy, lol. At times, they deliberately teased the ship (Misbegotten), and at times they did it accidentally. But they were aware of it. It has always been a suspicion of mine that a small part of the reason they got rid of Weir was because having a Weir/Sheppard/Teyla triangle (even if they didn't write it that way) would have interfered with the show, as well as the proposed s4 Sheyla hinting. There are other, much bigger, reasons for Weir's departure, but.....moving on

These writers were just incapable of changing directions or making adjustments. I honestly don't think, if you can believe what TPTB consistently said all 5 years, that they ever considered anything between John and Elizabeth to be hinting at ship when they were doing it. Yeah, maybe later on a couple of commentaries, but all involved, even Torri and Joe, were always consistent in denying it. And remember also that none of them, as far as we know, watched the finished product. So, let's say you are a photographer, and your assignment is to take a pic of some daisies. You snap a bunch of pics and send them to your boss thinking you have done a great job showing how pretty the daisies are, but the boss looks closely and sees a skunk hiding under the flowers. Did you intend to photograph a skunk? Bad analogy but sorta gets my point across.

* Rachel had more chemistry with practically everyone but Joe. I can't explain why, but I don't think this is completely my bias. Why else would she be shipped with so many people, and so easily? I can quite easily see K/T, R/T, C/T (at a pinch I can see J/T but that would be a "moving towards it" scenario). Look at Ronon's introduction - Teyla practically melts when he takes his shirt off, and does much the same thing later on when she's doing some 'interesting' stretches/positions on her bed later on. What?! How hard would it have been to throw in a similar scene with John? Later on, she gets some awesome scenes with him in Echoes, plus later he's the one who knows about her secret in s4, before John.

I have my theories about this too. I look at Sheyla like McKeller. They were too friendly off screen to make a romance look convincing. Now I know there are even married couples who have no screen chemistry, but there are also actors who can't stand each other who have great screen chemistry, so my theory only holds up to that extent. But Joe seemed to treat Rachel like a little sister and that just didn't make for good romantic bits. Of course, this theory completely falls apart when you look at how much chemistry there was between Rachel and Jason, who she said is like a brother to her. So *shrugs*

My other theory is that Joe seldom has good romantic chemistry with any of his "love interests." I don't remember anyone from all those roles he did in 90's TV shows or other women on SGA or anyone since. This new Metal Hurlant thing seems to be all about a certain part of that girl's anatomy, so I am not looking forward to that. (Shut up!) And I'll have to reserve judgment on Salli Richardson, who I hear he's doing a pilot with for Lifetime. The Liftetime aspect of that has me worried yet again that he won't be the real star and won't get to do anything he's truly good at, but we shall see.

* whilst the company line was "there is no ship" by the end of s3, this didn't hold true, because they'd had a chance to review the show by then (and the fan reaction) and adjust accordingly, they knew what worked and what didnt, and wrote scenes to suits

* I can almost buy Weir being injured in FS as an afterthought. It would make s4 interesting, wouldn't it? She'd have to volunteer to go on the Lifeline mission

Remember that JM said they didn't care how many fans wanted something, it wouldn't change their direction.

Lol. They're calling it a Frankenstorm on the news here. Hopefully it doesn't live up to that name

They're calling it that here too and trying their best to scare us all to death.

[Falcon Horus]

Falcon you are keeper the Samuel Colt gun that can kill anything! Even demons. That is a lot of power you have there. Use it for good my child!

Oh, fascinating... with great power comes great responsibility.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky Family and College Football Saturday! Good luck to everyone's teams! And everyone up in Sandy's path, stay safe! *hugs to all*

Much love from me for that.

Hee! *more hugs*

We also have to be concerned about the upcoming election. If power is still off in some areas, they will have to extend the voting hours and/or use paper ballots. We may not know the results for weeks. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Oh frak, that's a lovely thought.

A lot of people complained about the stuff in Sunday that had Rodney and Carson as BFFs, but they must have forgotten Hide and Seek where it was shown that they were very friendly. Throughout the show, I think we got scenes of casual, comfortable friendliness between them. And you're right, Rodney wanted to be John. Coup d'Etat is a good example of that.

Rodney so looks up to John like he's Rodney's big brother.

Agree with all this. Teyla seemed to be a friend to everyone because of her gentle, kind nature, but I only saw her spending off duty time with Ronon. As for John/Ronon, I think they had a different kind of friendship, more like comrades in arms. In Sunday when they had their slumber party beer party, John didn't seem to know much about how Ronon spent his time.

*dies laughing at the slumber party line*

I really wish we had seen more friendship scenes with Teyla and Elizabeth. *sighs*

True. It was like they had one idea for Ronon in Runner and then couldn't figure out what else to do with him. I have realized while doing our Sunday postathons that Ronon and Teyla were underused starting in S2, so all the complaining about them being wallpapered in S4-5 came a bit late. They just never did have much of a role. They dragged Teyla's Wraith abilities out when they needed them, but that was it.

I hate to say it, but if they had really been serious about killing off someone to make the show more "realistic" to the audience (the utterly lame excuse they used to justify getting rid of Elizabeth, Carson and Kate), then they really should've killed off a member of Sheppard's team, since they were consistently in greater danger, always being out on the front lines and all. With both Ronon and Teyla having some overlap in their character traits and both being wallpapered, sadly, one of them would've been a more logical candidate to go.

These writers were just incapable of changing directions or making adjustments. I honestly don't think, if you can believe what TPTB consistently said all 5 years, that they ever considered anything between John and Elizabeth to be hinting at ship when they were doing it. Yeah, maybe later on a couple of commentaries, but all involved, even Torri and Joe, were always consistent in denying it. And remember also that none of them, as far as we know, watched the finished product. So, let's say you are a photographer, and your assignment is to take a pic of some daisies. You snap a bunch of pics and send them to your boss thinking you have done a great job showing how pretty the daisies are, but the boss looks closely and sees a skunk hiding under the flowers. Did you intend to photograph a skunk? Bad analogy but sorta gets my point across.

Actually a pretty good analogy. What TPTW did stinks just as bad as a skunk.

Remember that JM said they didn't care how many fans wanted something, it wouldn't change their direction.

And here we are, five years or so later. No Stargate on TV at all. I wonder if any of them regret their stubbornness now. *smirks*

[Falcon Horus]

And here we are, five years or so later. No Stargate on TV at all. I wonder if any of them regret their stubbornness now. *smirks*

I have a feeling they've forgotten about that chapter a long time ago...

[Brie]

Snow? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!!

That was my reaction when I woke up and it defiantly took most of us by surprise, and while it wasn’t a lot of snow it’s getting colder.

What she said. Like Rodney, after having a pet whale in Echoes, suddenly being afraid of them.

Defiantly that, I’ve also always wondered about Teyla’s first dream scene in the episode, when Sheppard shows up in his iratus-bug outfit and tries to strangle her but the part that doesn’t make any sense is that in ‘Conversion’ she was only around him when he looked like that once and in the scene he flat out ignored her, and while it could all lead back to THAT scene it still feels weird that they had him try to strangle her of all things, I mean that is what he did with Elizabeth back then but unlike with Elizabeth he didn’t look like he was going to let Teyla go willingly and she still woke up like that, I dunno, I might be reading too much into the scene but I couldn’t help but wonder.

[Falcon Horus]

It might have something to do with the Wraith and how she feels about them, or how she "relates" to them. I'm about 95% sure Elizabeth told Teyla what happened, or at least she'd be aware of what had happened. There would have been a report about it, no doubt.

The crystal entity lives off the fear of its hosts so I have to say that it was Teyla's fear of possibly loosing the people she cares about to the Wraith that made her bring around Bug!Sheppard and the crystal entity made him strangle her for good measure.

Heck, Kate conjured up Teyla to safe her in her nightmare so yeah... err... you know...

[drewandian]

I hate to say it, but if they had really been serious about killing off someone to make the show more "realistic" to the audience (the utterly lame excuse they used to justify getting rid of Elizabeth, Carson and Kate), then they really should've killed off a member of Sheppard's team, since they were consistently in greater danger, always being out on the front lines and all. With both Ronon and Teyla having some overlap in their character traits and both being wallpapered, sadly, one of them would've been a more logical candidate to go.

That was the same reason they gave for killing off Fraiser on SG-1 when all the fans said "who sends their CMO into a hostile war zone!?"....and I thought the same thing then as I did about them offing the characters on SGA - having a member of the premiere field team die is much more realistic and would've had the same if not more impact. stupid ptb!

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I'm a Shapeshifter. were there any shapeshifters on atlantis or sg-1?

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

Pearl, I have not yet finished the story, but it only has about 3, maybe 4 more chapters.

I am already halfway through it. ;D

Hello everyone and hope you’re having a good Friday.

Sucks to hear about the storms, we had our first snow here last night so it’s freezing over here.

Thanks for posting that picture, and yupp, he was defiantly thinking of Elizabeth there.

Yes, he sure was.

And besides, everything after The Real World is just John's nanite formed nightmare/hallucination. *nods*


What she said. Like Rodney, after having a pet whale in Echoes, suddenly being afraid of them.

Google search is your friend, dear.

It really didn't make much/any sense.

oh btw, hello sparkies! happy weekend!

Happy weekend to you too!

This is a time when I'm glad I live in a state that doesn't have an oceanic coast.

I think i would not be able to live in a place where i could not see the ocean.

I know the moment has passed, but this discussion (and everyone's comments thereafter) was really interesting

While many probably won't agree, this is why i think Carson and Rodney were better friends than John and Rodney (before Carson dropped below 55mph). The "you're my best friend" line in Sunday was thrown in (and an afterthought, so I discount it), but Rodney was more relaxed and more revealing around Carson - whereas John was the person he wanted to be like, looked up to, thought was cool, whatever.

I somehow agree with that.

At times, they deliberately teased the ship (Misbegotten), and at times they did it accidentally. But they were aware of it. It has always been a suspicion of mine that a small part of the reason they got rid of Weir was because having a Weir/Sheppard/Teyla triangle (even if they didn't write it that way) would have interfered with the show, as well as the proposed s4 Sheyla hinting. There are other, much bigger, reasons for Weir's departure, but.....moving on

I totally agree with you on this. But then if that's the case, why did they introduce Teyla's pregnancy there, it didn't make much sense.

Rodney so looks up to John like he's Rodney's big brother.

*dies laughing at the slumber party line*

I really wish we had seen more friendship scenes with Teyla and Elizabeth. *sighs*

Yeah, i agree.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

Within the team, it took John almost killing Teyla before he told her about the afghanistan incident.

If it would not have been for the hallucinations i think he would not have tell her anything about it.