Originally posted by Scary Kitty
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Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread
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Originally posted by Scary Kitty View PostNot so fast! *glomps you* Heya, buddy, how's it going?
Moving on:
I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.
Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.
As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).
IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.sigpic
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Originally posted by gateraid View PostI don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.
Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.
As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).
IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.
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Originally posted by gateraid View PostIt is.....a long story But we don't need to get bogged down with that
Moving on:
I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.
Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.
As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).
IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.
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Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!
Originally posted by gateraid View PostIt is.....a long story But we don't need to get bogged down with that
Moving on:
I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.
Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.
As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).
IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.CylonsReplicators.(This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.
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Originally posted by Scary Kitty View PostGood morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!
Fascinating insights, all. Like SR, on my initial (and subsequent) viewing(s), I've always interpreted the mission to Asuras as a first-contact and thus primarily a diplomatic situation. Hence, the diplomat (Weir) is the one in charge, with Sheppard basically managing security. That felt then and still feels now like the most logical explanation of the split in authority in Progeny. It's not typical for what we see on the show, but then, it wasn't a typical mission, as it turned out. FrakingCylonsReplicators.
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Originally posted by Southern Red View Post*nods* And you could see John's concern for Elizabeth all throughout. He seemed to be vibrating at times because he had obviously promised to let her handle it. When she came up all geared up to go and Rodney made a comment before they left, you notice that John didn't say anything. Uncharacteristic? Maybe, but it tells me they had already had a conversation and he lost, so he had to deal with her going along and just keep an eye on her. I can imagine the talk he had with Ronon, telling him to protect her no matter what. And I'm sure Teyla told him not to worry, that they would all look out for her.
All joking aside, yes, it's clear that there was some sort of off-screen discussion between John and Elizabeth on the issue of her going off-world. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was an on-going discussion, in fact. He didn't seem to bat an eye when she decided to go to Taranis in Season 2's "Inferno"... of course, Sheppard had already been there to vet the place, but it appears that he's become more comfortable with letting her off-world under more sensitive circumstances. It's logical to assume that at least part of this gradual shift is simply due to the fact that they're both getting more comfortable with each other's working styles, knowing what areas they can compromise in, etc. Just a couple of close friends who happen to work together.(This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.
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Originally posted by Scary Kitty View PostWith Teyla thinking all the while about how Elizabeth practices with the bantos rods and actually gets a hit in every now and again, unlike John who totally slacks off, LOL.
All joking aside, yes, it's clear that there was some sort of off-screen discussion between John and Elizabeth on the issue of her going off-world. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was an on-going discussion, in fact. He didn't seem to bat an eye when she decided to go to Taranis in Season 2's "Inferno"... of course, Sheppard had already been there to vet the place, but it appears that he's become more comfortable with letting her off-world under more sensitive circumstances. It's logical to assume that at least part of this gradual shift is simply due to the fact that they're both getting more comfortable with each other's working styles, knowing what areas they can compromise in, etc. Just a couple of close friends who happen to work together.
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Hello everyone!
Originally posted by gateraid View PostMoving on:
I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.
Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.
As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).
IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.
Another interesting off-world mission to look at would be ‘Condemned’ since Elizabeth wasn’t with team Shep but with Lorne’s team this time. I always did think they could have had some interesting scenes with some interesting conversations as to Elizabeth traveling off-world with any team but also one that wasn’t team Shep (though how they acted it did look as if it wasn’t the first time she had gone off-world with them, especially in the scene where Elizabeth just had to send Lorne a quick look and he knew what to do), and while I do know that they are very well trained soldiers I can’t help but think that Shep must have had something to do with who exactly Elizabeth “could” travel off-world with.
I really wish they could have shown at least one scene where they do discuss her going of world but I guess it will forever be something one will have to imagine in their own mind.
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Originally posted by Brie View PostHello everyone!
This is an interesting point and I agree with what everyone said.
Another interesting off-world mission to look at would be ‘Condemned’ since Elizabeth wasn’t with team Shep but with Lorne’s team this time. I always did think they could have had some interesting scenes with some interesting conversations as to Elizabeth traveling off-world with any team but also one that wasn’t team Shep (though how they acted it did look as if it wasn’t the first time she had gone off-world with them, especially in the scene where Elizabeth just had to send Lorne a quick look and he knew what to do), and while I do know that they are very well trained soldiers I can’t help but think that Shep must have had something to do with who exactly Elizabeth “could” travel off-world with.
I really wish they could have shown at least one scene where they do discuss her going of world but I guess it will forever be something one will have to imagine in their own mind.
Condemned also shows how Shep takes charge and tells her what to do over the radio. I found that interesting. He's the one in trouble, yet he gives orders and she smiles and obeys. Also, look at CG when he yelled an order for her not to give Kolya what he wants. Those show that he is in authority off world and/or when his life is in danger. Somewhere in there they also must have had the conversation where she tells him not to take extraordinary measures to save her. I'm thinking that came somewhere in between because by CG, they were very much in sync. But again, at some point if the writers had thought it through, they would have seen a need for just such a conversation that would have clarified when each of them was in charge and how they made leadership decisions.
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Originally posted by Southern Red View PostYeah, and our ideas are so much better than the writers'. LOL
Condemned also shows how Shep takes charge and tells her what to do over the radio. I found that interesting. He's the one in trouble, yet he gives orders and she smiles and obeys. Also, look at CG when he yelled an order for her not to give Kolya what he wants. Those show that he is in authority off world and/or when his life is in danger. Somewhere in there they also must have had the conversation where she tells him not to take extraordinary measures to save her. I'm thinking that came somewhere in between because by CG, they were very much in sync. But again, at some point if the writers had thought it through, they would have seen a need for just such a conversation that would have clarified when each of them was in charge and how they made leadership decisions.
I think at that point, there's just a sync between them. In Epiphany, when Elizabeth shows up to rescue him, he doesn't ask why she's there, he basically asks why she didn't come sooner. Like he expected to see her. Of course, he'd been a couple of months locked away with a bunch of hippies, so he wasn't exactly in the 'head of security' mindset, but that was also a sign of 'friend to a friend' relationship rather than a working one. I think we're meant to imply, even if it wasn't the intention at the time, that the blows they came to in "Hot Zone" were resolved, even if it wasn't at that moment.
Considering she hugged him in Siege III because of her relief at seeing him alive, I think the lines between 'what my friend does' and 'what my boss does' were a little blurred, even at that point.
So my point perhaps is that by Progeny, in typical John fashion, he gave her lead until he felt it necessary to take it away because the circumstances got 'too hot'. And she knows where that line is. He doesn't interfere in her discussions with Niam (or her replicator induced view of history--isn't it Rodney who throws out the cautionary arm?). But once they have to escape, she's all his. I think John feels comfortable taking charge when he needs to, and she, at that point, knows him well enough to know that when he implies 'my turn', it pretty much is 'his turn'. In Hot Zone, he didn't trust her. By Common Ground, he knows what she's capable of. So the gray area is much smaller--and I bet she was willing to bend a little, too, even if he trod a little too close to her turf. She subtly points out he has the right in Lifeline, to execute her if he sees fit.
And even though she'd broken all the rules by the end of Lifeline, he trusted her enough to believe she was fully herself and would keep them safe while they made their escape. As head of security and mission leader he should have assumed she was fully compromised. As her friend, though, he placed that trust in her and took the chance, which allowed them to escape.Visit SGArising.com to read our virtual continuation of the Atlantis series!
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Mm, I think the Siege hug ad especially what leads up to it (the end scene in The Siege pt 2) was the ultimate thing for their dynamic, because I think that it showed Sheppard that Elizabeth’s strength as a leader but also by letting him go it showed him that she trusted him and that stood by him even if he also knew that it hurt her, and by seeing his determination to sacrifice himself for the city and its people (and yeah she knew from before that he was willing to go far to save others) but in the Siege pt 2 scene it was also obvious that in a way he made it her call to make and when she said ‘Go’ it was more than just being willing to allow him to make the choice to sacrifice himself, she also showed a trust in him that I bet he hadn’t experienced with a commander before and while yeah, they had grown to trust each other before then but it felt a bit as if that moment (which was also the final scene from season 1) was a turning point in their relationship, and especially adding the hug that came afterwards + the scene at the end of ‘The Siege pt 3’ it was as if they had formed a special bond which while never explained it was defiantly shown.
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