Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[mandogater]

It's definitely worth the effort!

I'll see what I can do. Maybe I'll luck out and they'll expand the comic-con they have in Columbus.

[TheLadyMore]

Here have a buckett of ice *Passes buckett*

Thanks -puts it in Freezer to prepare-

[gateraid]

Not so fast! *glomps you* Heya, buddy, how's it going?

It is.....a long story But we don't need to get bogged down with that


Moving on:



I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.

Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.

As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).

IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.

[ShWeir]

I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.

Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.

As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).

IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.

Interesting. I don't know if we talked about it either, but you made an interesting point.

[Southern Red]

It is.....a long story But we don't need to get bogged down with that


Moving on:



I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.

Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.

As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).

IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.

We haven't talked about that as far as I know, and you bring up a good point. I thought just in passing that John was deferring to her because they were on a supposedly diplomatic mission. But when it turned ugly, he would characteristically have taken charge. I'm thinking he wanted to try and let diplomacy work because he trusted her judgment and at this point they didn't know the Asurans were anything but what they appeared to be. Even when they got nasty, they still didn't know just how much of a threat they were. I'm thinking John figured once they got off the planet, they'd be rid of them. Plus we know by this time that his thinking had become more in line with hers in most situations, thus her surprise in FS when he disagreed with her.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

It is.....a long story But we don't need to get bogged down with that


Moving on:



I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.

Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.

As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).

IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.

Fascinating insights, all. Like SR, on my initial (and subsequent) viewing(s), I've always interpreted the mission to Asuras as a first-contact and thus primarily a diplomatic situation. Hence, the diplomat (Weir) is the one in charge, with Sheppard basically managing security. That felt then and still feels now like the most logical explanation of the split in authority in Progeny. It's not typical for what we see on the show, but then, it wasn't a typical mission, as it turned out. Fraking Cylons Replicators.

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!



Fascinating insights, all. Like SR, on my initial (and subsequent) viewing(s), I've always interpreted the mission to Asuras as a first-contact and thus primarily a diplomatic situation. Hence, the diplomat (Weir) is the one in charge, with Sheppard basically managing security. That felt then and still feels now like the most logical explanation of the split in authority in Progeny. It's not typical for what we see on the show, but then, it wasn't a typical mission, as it turned out. Fraking Cylons Replicators.

*nods* And you could see John's concern for Elizabeth all throughout. He seemed to be vibrating at times because he had obviously promised to let her handle it. When she came up all geared up to go and Rodney made a comment before they left, you notice that John didn't say anything. Uncharacteristic? Maybe, but it tells me they had already had a conversation and he lost, so he had to deal with her going along and just keep an eye on her. I can imagine the talk he had with Ronon, telling him to protect her no matter what. And I'm sure Teyla told him not to worry, that they would all look out for her.

[Scary Kitty]

*nods* And you could see John's concern for Elizabeth all throughout. He seemed to be vibrating at times because he had obviously promised to let her handle it. When she came up all geared up to go and Rodney made a comment before they left, you notice that John didn't say anything. Uncharacteristic? Maybe, but it tells me they had already had a conversation and he lost, so he had to deal with her going along and just keep an eye on her. I can imagine the talk he had with Ronon, telling him to protect her no matter what. And I'm sure Teyla told him not to worry, that they would all look out for her.

With Teyla thinking all the while about how Elizabeth practices with the bantos rods and actually gets a hit in every now and again, unlike John who totally slacks off, LOL.

All joking aside, yes, it's clear that there was some sort of off-screen discussion between John and Elizabeth on the issue of her going off-world. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was an on-going discussion, in fact. He didn't seem to bat an eye when she decided to go to Taranis in Season 2's "Inferno"... of course, Sheppard had already been there to vet the place, but it appears that he's become more comfortable with letting her off-world under more sensitive circumstances. It's logical to assume that at least part of this gradual shift is simply due to the fact that they're both getting more comfortable with each other's working styles, knowing what areas they can compromise in, etc. Just a couple of close friends who happen to work together.

[Southern Red]

With Teyla thinking all the while about how Elizabeth practices with the bantos rods and actually gets a hit in every now and again, unlike John who totally slacks off, LOL.

All joking aside, yes, it's clear that there was some sort of off-screen discussion between John and Elizabeth on the issue of her going off-world. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was an on-going discussion, in fact. He didn't seem to bat an eye when she decided to go to Taranis in Season 2's "Inferno"... of course, Sheppard had already been there to vet the place, but it appears that he's become more comfortable with letting her off-world under more sensitive circumstances. It's logical to assume that at least part of this gradual shift is simply due to the fact that they're both getting more comfortable with each other's working styles, knowing what areas they can compromise in, etc. Just a couple of close friends who happen to work together.

Bingo. And at some point they realized they hardly have to actually talk it through because they agree with each other. By S3 they could have an argument without saying a word. LOL I would love to have seen that.

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[Brie]

Hello everyone!

Moving on:

I don't recall if we discussed this specifically at the time (probably, maybe I wasn't there for that) but the writing of John for parts of Progeny has always intrigued me. Why was he so passive when Elizabeth was around? She took point (not with a gun, obviously, but in terms of dialogue) and she effectively 'lead' the away team even though as soon as they stepped through the gate she had no more authority than Rodney or Teyla.

Obviously the plan for the replicator arc was to make it more of a Weir thing (hence why they scrapped it so hastily in s4) so it would make sense that there would be more of a focus on her. Plus there wouldn't have been much point in taking her on the mission at all if all she was going to do was hold Sheppard's handbag (so to speak), so there would have to be some sort of role sharing going on......buuuuuut, the role reversal was so striking. He was snarky with Oberoth, but it was Elizabeth doing all the talking, even to the point of the 'leader to leader' meeting. The team discussions in their 'room' were similar to any staff meeting - all briefing Elizabeth. Even Sheppard's dream was reversed - he had the typical Weir scene of running onto the balcony to check the city, which literally made me lol.

As I said, a lot of it can be handwaved away by the nature of the arc, and simply by her being there (and the need to justify said inclusion). I know it's been said before on this thread that there absolutely must have been a prior discussion between Weir, Sheppard, and whomever was left in command of the city, about her going on the mission (as opposed to her putting on a vest and waving goodbye to Chuck as the scene implies). And I suppose that given how he backed her up previously in Misbegotten and she in Sateda, there was obviously an element of trust there. And yes, when things went haywire, he took over again (rightfully so).

IDK, I guess what I'm trying to say is that he reminded me (as sexist as this sounds) of an old school political wife standing behind her man, agreeing with him but not speaking up.

This is an interesting point and I agree with what everyone said.


Another interesting off-world mission to look at would be ‘Condemned’ since Elizabeth wasn’t with team Shep but with Lorne’s team this time. I always did think they could have had some interesting scenes with some interesting conversations as to Elizabeth traveling off-world with any team but also one that wasn’t team Shep (though how they acted it did look as if it wasn’t the first time she had gone off-world with them, especially in the scene where Elizabeth just had to send Lorne a quick look and he knew what to do), and while I do know that they are very well trained soldiers I can’t help but think that Shep must have had something to do with who exactly Elizabeth “could” travel off-world with.

I really wish they could have shown at least one scene where they do discuss her going of world but I guess it will forever be something one will have to imagine in their own mind.

[Southern Red]

Hello everyone!



This is an interesting point and I agree with what everyone said.


Another interesting off-world mission to look at would be ‘Condemned’ since Elizabeth wasn’t with team Shep but with Lorne’s team this time. I always did think they could have had some interesting scenes with some interesting conversations as to Elizabeth traveling off-world with any team but also one that wasn’t team Shep (though how they acted it did look as if it wasn’t the first time she had gone off-world with them, especially in the scene where Elizabeth just had to send Lorne a quick look and he knew what to do), and while I do know that they are very well trained soldiers I can’t help but think that Shep must have had something to do with who exactly Elizabeth “could” travel off-world with.

I really wish they could have shown at least one scene where they do discuss her going of world but I guess it will forever be something one will have to imagine in their own mind.

Yeah, and our ideas are so much better than the writers'. LOL

Condemned also shows how Shep takes charge and tells her what to do over the radio. I found that interesting. He's the one in trouble, yet he gives orders and she smiles and obeys. Also, look at CG when he yelled an order for her not to give Kolya what he wants. Those show that he is in authority off world and/or when his life is in danger. Somewhere in there they also must have had the conversation where she tells him not to take extraordinary measures to save her. I'm thinking that came somewhere in between because by CG, they were very much in sync. But again, at some point if the writers had thought it through, they would have seen a need for just such a conversation that would have clarified when each of them was in charge and how they made leadership decisions.

[Eri13]

Yeah, and our ideas are so much better than the writers'. LOL

Condemned also shows how Shep takes charge and tells her what to do over the radio. I found that interesting. He's the one in trouble, yet he gives orders and she smiles and obeys. Also, look at CG when he yelled an order for her not to give Kolya what he wants. Those show that he is in authority off world and/or when his life is in danger. Somewhere in there they also must have had the conversation where she tells him not to take extraordinary measures to save her. I'm thinking that came somewhere in between because by CG, they were very much in sync. But again, at some point if the writers had thought it through, they would have seen a need for just such a conversation that would have clarified when each of them was in charge and how they made leadership decisions.

Submersion's another interesting twist in the dynamic. In that episode, the purpose of the mission is primarily scientific, and yet Shep is willing to let her out (under his personal protection, of course ) even when there is perhaps an element of danger to be had. He even lets her near the Queen, once the Queen is captured.

I think at that point, there's just a sync between them. In Epiphany, when Elizabeth shows up to rescue him, he doesn't ask why she's there, he basically asks why she didn't come sooner. Like he expected to see her. Of course, he'd been a couple of months locked away with a bunch of hippies, so he wasn't exactly in the 'head of security' mindset, but that was also a sign of 'friend to a friend' relationship rather than a working one. I think we're meant to imply, even if it wasn't the intention at the time, that the blows they came to in "Hot Zone" were resolved, even if it wasn't at that moment.

Considering she hugged him in Siege III because of her relief at seeing him alive, I think the lines between 'what my friend does' and 'what my boss does' were a little blurred, even at that point.

So my point perhaps is that by Progeny, in typical John fashion, he gave her lead until he felt it necessary to take it away because the circumstances got 'too hot'. And she knows where that line is. He doesn't interfere in her discussions with Niam (or her replicator induced view of history--isn't it Rodney who throws out the cautionary arm?). But once they have to escape, she's all his. I think John feels comfortable taking charge when he needs to, and she, at that point, knows him well enough to know that when he implies 'my turn', it pretty much is 'his turn'. In Hot Zone, he didn't trust her. By Common Ground, he knows what she's capable of. So the gray area is much smaller--and I bet she was willing to bend a little, too, even if he trod a little too close to her turf. She subtly points out he has the right in Lifeline, to execute her if he sees fit.

And even though she'd broken all the rules by the end of Lifeline, he trusted her enough to believe she was fully herself and would keep them safe while they made their escape. As head of security and mission leader he should have assumed she was fully compromised. As her friend, though, he placed that trust in her and took the chance, which allowed them to escape.

[Brie]

Mm, I think the Siege hug ad especially what leads up to it (the end scene in The Siege pt 2) was the ultimate thing for their dynamic, because I think that it showed Sheppard that Elizabeth’s strength as a leader but also by letting him go it showed him that she trusted him and that stood by him even if he also knew that it hurt her, and by seeing his determination to sacrifice himself for the city and its people (and yeah she knew from before that he was willing to go far to save others) but in the Siege pt 2 scene it was also obvious that in a way he made it her call to make and when she said ‘Go’ it was more than just being willing to allow him to make the choice to sacrifice himself, she also showed a trust in him that I bet he hadn’t experienced with a commander before and while yeah, they had grown to trust each other before then but it felt a bit as if that moment (which was also the final scene from season 1) was a turning point in their relationship, and especially adding the hug that came afterwards + the scene at the end of ‘The Siege pt 3’ it was as if they had formed a special bond which while never explained it was defiantly shown.

[mandogater]

HELP!!!!!!

This conversation is sending a huge pack of plot bunnies my way. I'm being overrun!!!!

[TheLadyMore]

HELP!!!!!!

This conversation is sending a huge pack of plot bunnies my way. I'm being overrun!!!!

I'll save you -goes Katniss Everdeen and shoots bows and arrows at the bunnies-