Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[smallgirl]

I agree that Caldwell is much more subtle than Sumner or Everett and does have possibilities but I think it would have been better if he hadn't so clearly got under both Weir's and Sheppard's skins so quickly. Weir wanted Sheppard to continue leading the military contingent and she knows that Caldwell was expecting to get the job so straight away she feels he has an agenda. Caldwell didn't take long to annoy Sheppard by disagreeing with him over the Ford situation. It was shades of Bates and Sheppard arguing over Teyla in season 1.

I think to really make things interesting it would have been better to have had at least one of the pair develop a reasonably good working relationship with Caldwell therefore throwing the Sheppard/Weir dynamic off slightly. I enjoyed the tension between them in HZ, and I would like to see more of the same. They are loyal to one another and it is understandable that because of all they went through in season 1 together they built a bond that would take an awful lot to damage but a bit of doubt now and again wouldn't be a bad thing. Weir questioned John's faith in her ability to lead in HZ and never really got an affirmative answer (though his standing up for her in Siege 2 was in part an affirmation). John has expressed doubts about decisions he has made and guilt over their repercussions to Weir and no-one else. Although she has always used those occasions to offer him support and encouragement, it is clear that he still carries those feelings around and to have a situation or two where sometimes she appears, in his eyes at least anyway, to have some concern over how he handles things could be potentially very interesting.

I may sound a bit evil in wanting to shake things up between Sheppard and Weir but I think a few spanners thrown in the works in the short term could lead to a stronger relationship in the future. I think this would especially be useful in developing Sheppard's character. He seems very comfortable (just seen Duet) with his working relationship with Weir at the moment. A comfortable Sheppard is a hidden Sheppard. You only get glimpses of the inner man when he's pushed outside his comfort zone. To see how much Atlantis matters to him, how much Weir (just in terms of their working relationship) matters to him, we need to see him feel like he could lose some of what he has.

[Whistler84]

I may sound a bit evil in wanting to shake things up between Sheppard and Weir but I think a few spanners thrown in the works in the short term could lead to a stronger relationship in the future. I think this would especially be useful in developing Sheppard's character. He seems very comfortable (just seen Duet) with his working relationship with Weir at the moment. A comfortable Sheppard is a hidden Sheppard. You only get glimpses of the inner man when he's pushed outside his comfort zone. To see how much Atlantis matters to him, how much Weir (just in terms of their working relationship) matters to him, we need to see him feel like he could lose some of what he has.

Nice! Especially the bold. I gotta agree with everything you say. I also enjoy a little bit of 'fight' in my ships. They just add an extra bout of passion to the relationship that keeps it bright and shinny in a never-a-moment-of dullness type of way. I'm not saying I want them to constantly be fighting, 'cause that can get annoying on a tv show for me, but some healthy amount of strife wouldn't be out of line. Plus, Weir is essentially the only person who has the right to set Sheppard straight when he needs it. She's the only one who can truly affect his leadership command, and as such, it only makes sense that she challenge him once in a while. We've seen Sheppard do that to Weir, now where's the vice-versa?

I personally love the idea of Weir being the only one able to challenge Sheppard to be a better leader. And not simply because of it's shippy conotations, although those are fab, but because it's the only way that I think is logical. The only other person who can challenge him to do better is McKay, and that's not likely to include leadership pointers at all. Sheppard is a good leader, but he can be better. The same, obviously, can be said of Weir. The way I see them improving is a lot of give and take. That's essentially what attracted me to the ship in the first place.

[Bama]

I gotta agree. Cadwell is a far more appropriate FOIL (this is an English term, which I'm presuming, most people know?), because he's more subtle and has many more possibilities. Not just for Weir, whose had the most interaction with him, but also for Sheppard. (Actually, sometimes I feel that Weir's interaction with Cadwell reflects poorly on Weir).

I won't totally disagree there. I think she has gotten in his face a bit too much at times perhaps but I do think Weir relies on her 'instincts' regarding people and there is something about Caldwell (to Mitch's credit) that just isn't completely trust-worthy. It's almost like he's 'probing' Weir to see how he can best 'handle' her. He tried the 'In your face woman! I'm in charge and shut yo mouth' angle to begin with and she got back up in his face with it. Then, he tried the 'Hey, I'm not so bad, I want to be your pal-really' angle with her and already having been burned a bit by him once, she wasn't even willing to crack the door back open. Actually, her interactions with Caldwell may show us quite a bit about Elizabeth's expectations of people and something shipperwise to keep in mind. Once burned, she may be one of those people that never fully trusts again. I also think that ultra-protective gene she has for Shep kicks in big-time whenever Caldwell is around because he threatens Shep's alpha-male position in her kingdom and she just does not like that one iota.

With Sheppard, it's still a dynamic that has been left largely unexplored. At times, Cadwells's an ally, and at others, Cadwell's the guy trying to take Sheppard's job. I hope they don't intend to turn Cadwell into a one-dimentional character. Not when he shows so much potential.

I can't make up my mind if I like his interactions with Shep or not yet. The two of them definitely need to have more. Shep can't 'in your face' him like Elizabeth does but I've noticed that Shep does seem to rather enjoy watching her do it to him. Watch his little smirk and eye dancing in Trinity when the three of them are all talking in her office. Shep has the equivalent of Elizabeth's 'I'm so proud of him' look from 'Aurora' in his own eyes and on his face when she snarks Caldwell. That scene is a good one in other ways too with Caldwell equally 'assessing' the connection between Shep and Weir with a wonderful little brow furrow and eye narrowing. Great face acting from these three!

Actually, this makes me think of something the S/T people pointed out. I was lurking in their thread one day, (bad, bad Whistler!) and they were talking about how Cadwell unites Sheppard and Weir against a common foe the same way that Bates had united Sheppard and Teyla in season one. The comparison, I think, is apt. If you think about it, both Cadwell and Bates played the outside force that was making major assumptions and causing tension for each of the party members involved. But for some reason, tptb decided to switch out Bates for Cadwell. Kinda makes me wonder that they had this 'antagonistic guy whose good at his job, but still a meanie' character set up for some shippery intentions. In season one, they had S/T planned at the beginning, and had Bates for them. But when they shifted focus to S/W, they realized that this little three-way-interaction wouldn't serve its purpose anymore. They certainly couldn't have Bates decide to turn on Weir, for he always seemed to have a respect for Weir. So, come season two, they get ride of Bates (a loss, I think) and introduced Cadwell as the new ''antagonistic guy whose good at his job, but still a meanie' that would "upset" the shippy duo. What do you guys think?

Hmmm...what an interesting thought Whis! You're on a roll hon! I think the pieces are definitely still being assembled as the 'dynamics' are being figured out. I do think TPTB 'looked' at the situation and said, 'Well, if we're really gonna toy with shipping Shep and Weir, then they're gonna need a catalyst to provide tensions. If they had just allowed Weir and Shep to not 'grow' beyond their arguments in season one and learn about each other and come to a joint understanding with each other, then the characters just look weak and not so smart. So in season two, we get 'hand in hand' Shep and Weir in charge more and the 'outside' force being brought in to 'test' the fragile new 'marriage'. (Ha! got it in today)!
Neat thoughts Whis. Excellent post.

-B

[SGLAB]

I agree that Caldwell is much more subtle than Sumner or Everett and does have possibilities but I think it would have been better if he hadn't so clearly got under both Weir's and Sheppard's skins so quickly. Weir wanted Sheppard to continue leading the military contingent and she knows that Caldwell was expecting to get the job so straight away she feels he has an agenda. Caldwell didn't take long to annoy Sheppard by disagreeing with him over the Ford situation. It was shades of Bates and Sheppard arguing over Teyla in season 1.

I think to really make things interesting it would have been better to have had at least one of the pair develop a reasonably good working relationship with Caldwell therefore throwing the Sheppard/Weir dynamic off slightly. I enjoyed the tension between them in HZ, and I would like to see more of the same. They are loyal to one another and it is understandable that because of all they went through in season 1 together they built a bond that would take an awful lot to damage but a bit of doubt now and again wouldn't be a bad thing. Weir questioned John's faith in her ability to lead in HZ and never really got an affirmative answer (though his standing up for her in Siege 2 was in part an affirmation). John has expressed doubts about decisions he has made and guilt over their repercussions to Weir and no-one else. Although she has always used those occasions to offer him support and encouragement, it is clear that he still carries those feelings around and to have a situation or two where sometimes she appears, in his eyes at least anyway, to have some concern over how he handles things could be potentially very interesting.

I may sound a bit evil in wanting to shake things up between Sheppard and Weir but I think a few spanners thrown in the works in the short term could lead to a stronger relationship in the future. I think this would especially be useful in developing Sheppard's character. He seems very comfortable (just seen Duet) with his working relationship with Weir at the moment. A comfortable Sheppard is a hidden Sheppard. You only get glimpses of the inner man when he's pushed outside his comfort zone. To see how much Atlantis matters to him, how much Weir (just in terms of their working relationship) matters to him, we need to see him feel like he could lose some of what he has.

I think you're right, it would be great to see Shep pushed. He does seem to show more of his true self when he feels he could lose some of what he has. In the first balcony scene in Rising he and Weir were arguing about the best course of action. I really felt like he was showing something of his true self. And I think that's what made that scene between the two so interesting. Both seemed so real with each other.

Bama, I think the best name for the cave scene using the beginning of one of your ideas would simply be "the trying too hard scene". And speaking of that scene to continue what I was saying the "trying to hard scene" didn't show anything of Sheppard's true self. Not that I could see or remember.

[Bama]

I agree that Caldwell is much more subtle than Sumner or Everett and does have possibilities but I think it would have been better if he hadn't so clearly got under both Weir's and Sheppard's skins so quickly. Weir wanted Sheppard to continue leading the military contingent and she knows that Caldwell was expecting to get the job so straight away she feels he has an agenda. Caldwell didn't take long to annoy Sheppard by disagreeing with him over the Ford situation. It was shades of Bates and Sheppard arguing over Teyla in season 1.

I think to really make things interesting it would have been better to have had at least one of the pair develop a reasonably good working relationship with Caldwell therefore throwing the Sheppard/Weir dynamic off slightly. I enjoyed the tension between them in HZ, and I would like to see more of the same. They are loyal to one another and it is understandable that because of all they went through in season 1 together they built a bond that would take an awful lot to damage but a bit of doubt now and again wouldn't be a bad thing. Weir questioned John's faith in her ability to lead in HZ and never really got an affirmative answer (though his standing up for her in Siege 2 was in part an affirmation). John has expressed doubts about decisions he has made and guilt over their repercussions to Weir and no-one else. Although she has always used those occasions to offer him support and encouragement, it is clear that he still carries those feelings around and to have a situation or two where sometimes she appears, in his eyes at least anyway, to have some concern over how he handles things could be potentially very interesting.

I may sound a bit evil in wanting to shake things up between Sheppard and Weir but I think a few spanners thrown in the works in the short term could lead to a stronger relationship in the future. I think this would especially be useful in developing Sheppard's character. He seems very comfortable (just seen Duet) with his working relationship with Weir at the moment. A comfortable Sheppard is a hidden Sheppard. You only get glimpses of the inner man when he's pushed outside his comfort zone. To see how much Atlantis matters to him, how much Weir (just in terms of their working relationship) matters to him, we need to see him feel like he could lose some of what he has.

Xcellent post per usual SG. I too like the idea of a 'shake-up' in the comfort zone Weir and Shep have fallen into as they've come to respect, care and understand each other and each's respect roles and strengths and weaknesses. I like the idea of a catalyst that forces them to bring a bit more 'personal' into it and it's pretty obvious that Caldwell is doing just that. He cornered Elizabeth already with marvelous results for us and the character. *WHY are you and Sheppard so dang close?* And he forced her hand. Who else but an 'outsider' can show them what they've become to each other since first meeting? I think someone forcing them to think and prodding them to look at themselves and each other is a fantastic thing.

[Athenaktt]

Bama, I think the best name for the cave scene using the beginning of one of your ideas would simply be "the trying too hard scene". And speaking of that scene to continue what I was saying the "trying to hard scene" didn't show anything of Sheppard's true self. Not that I could see or remember.

I think the easiest name for "that" scene would be the "no spark scene" in Rising.

[Lexa Jayde]

Xcellent post per usual SG. I too like the idea of a 'shake-up' in the comfort zone Weir and Shep have fallen into as they've come to respect, care and understand each other and each's respect roles and strengths and weaknesses. I like the idea of a catalyst that forces them to bring a bit more 'personal' into it and it's pretty obvious that Caldwell is doing just that. He cornered Elizabeth already with marvelous results for us and the character. *WHY are you and Sheppard so dang close?* And he forced her hand. Who else but an 'outsider' can show them what they've become to each other since first meeting? I think someone forcing them to think and prodding them to look at themselves and each other is a fantastic thing.

i like where you are going with that.... and i really like your perspective

[SGLAB]

I think the easiest name for "that" scene would be the "no spark scene" in Rising.

When I first saw your post I read it as the "no Sparky scene"

[Tinuviel Undomiel]

Okay something off the subject of Caldwell, even though I do agree with everything you say about him.

I'm working on the third chapter to Return to Atlantis. Here is a little Shweir episode guide about it. You don't have to read it if you want. Some of the episodes don't have names yet, just to let you know.

Spoiler:

HOMECOMING PART 1&2: Elizabeth is not in these episodes, but JOhn does think about her a few times. You learn that something bad happened between them, but it is unknown what.

COMMANDER AND CHEIF: Elizabeth returns, once agi9an the commander. John and her do not have a lovely reunion. They are still mad at each other, and Elizabeth is engaged to General Carver. However, three years has not stopped their feelings for each other. Elizabeth snaps at John for toushing this box she is putting away, but does not reveal what is inside.

UNTITLED: This episode will contain the Genii, but a full summary is not available.

BACK TO THE FUTURE: John's team stumbles upon a time machine a day before Teyla and Ronon's wedding. They go back in time 10,000 years before the expedition to Atlantis. They meet Elizabeth, (Before I Sleep), but can't return to the planet right away because Rodney has lost the gate adress. After they find the adress on the database, they return to Atlantis. This time they have gone to far into the future, and it is 10 years after John and his team dissappeared. Future Elizabeth is married to Carver, but reveales to John that she regretted the decision because she was in love with someone else. She doesn't say who.

THE STONE: In this episode we reveal the mystery behind the box, and Elizabeth is attacked by an Elemen man named Thesar. She is struck by lightning in the chest, but because of this stone John gave her three years ago, she survives. When she recovers, she can only speak Elemen. John has to make a deal with Thesar in order to discover the way to free her from this speach imparement. At the end of the epsiode, we are introduced to a new side of Carver, and Teyla discovers something about Elizabeth.

MONTY RONON: A silly episode where Ronon is stuck with a castle full of girls who are used as lovers to some Elemen. Teyla is NOT happy. John finds out about Carver's bad side when he discovers that Elizabeth is being abused. Even though he hates the situation, there is little he can do because Carver is above him. John ends up talking to Carver, and says that if he hits her again he will talk to General Landry.

ILLUSION: John and his team are captured by an Elemen female named Delia. She uses her powers to create Illusions. Rodney thinks that a beautiful fangirl has come seeking to learn more about the great Rodney McKay. John believes the Elizabeth has left Carver, and is now seeking to start a relationship with him. For some reason, Ronon and Teyla are able to escape from their visions and return to Atlantis for help. Anxious to help her people, Elizabeth goes to the planet and meets Thesar again. Strangly, he leads her to Delia, bus says that only she may enter. After Elizabeth is able to convice John that the second her is really and Elemen, Delia grabs Elizabeth by the throat and reveals that she knws her secret. What that secret it, we don't know.

COMA: Teyla is struck by a weapon and falls into a coma. When Beckett runs some tests, they find out she is pregnant. John and Elizabeth get into a fight in this epsode, but when he finds her over-worked, and fast asleep in her office, he carries her to her room. He tells her sleeping form, that even though he has been angry with her, he still cares. Carver returns from a trip to Earth after the crisis has been averted. He tells Elizabeth that he doesn't like children when she tells him about Teyla. Elizabeth now begins to wonder if she made the right choice in accepting his proposal.

UNTITLED: Lorne's team is captured, and John and his team, and Carver stage a rescue. Delia captures Carver, and the last time he is seen, he is on his knees before her. John is forced to leave her behind. Elizabeth is shocked to hear that her fiance is dead, but she tells John that she is relieved because he had changed near the end. John and Elizabeth decide the put the past behind and start anew.

UNTITLED: This one isn't really an episode. the team returns to Earth for reprts and new personell. John discovers what is in Elizabeth's box, and Elizabeth finds out from Carver's sister the truth about her fiance. At the end, Elizabeth tells John that she doesn't miss Carver.

UNTITLED: John's team meets Rogue Wraith, and Teyla meets her father again.

UNTITLED: Delia returns, and injects Ronon with a chemical that is slowly changing him into an Elemen. But since the process is unwanted, it is also killing him. Elizabeth is having dreams about Oron, the scientist who created the Elemen. John is there to help her when the dreams become violent.

ORON: Elizabeth has taken over Teyla's place while she is pregnant. On a mission she touches a carving of the stone, and Oron takes over he body. Rodney hurridly tries to learn everything he can about the Elemen, while John worries that Elizabeth may never return to her body. When the Elemen attack the place where Oron died, where Elizabeth is held. In order not to lose ELizabeth, Oron is forced to relinquish her body back to her.

UNTITLED: Elizabeth is captured by an Elemen who turns out to be an old friend thought dead. Her fiance, Richard Carver. She tells he ex-fiance that she never loved him, and -in order to save John- kills Carver. It is also discoveres that someone with the Ancient Gene is protected from Delia's serum.

UNTITLED: John captured an Elemen who claims not to be an Elemen. in turns out that he is a Tycar, the enemy of the Elemen who control the powers of water, earth and air.

UNTITLED: Ateda is attacked by the Elemen, and while John, Elizabeth and Ronon try to stop them, Rodney is stuck in a cave with Teyla. Things only get worse when Teyla goes into labor.

UNTITLED: Elizabeth and John are captured by Delia, and the resurected Carver. Delia has improved her serum, and now you no longer have to be willing to turn into an Elemen. Delia chooses Elizabeth, but she is rescued by a Tycar under cover as an Elemen servant. John escapes from his ceel enraged and kills Delia. When Elizabeth and the Tycar find him, the Tycar is not pleased with John's display of feelings. On Atlantis, the Tycar tells John that in order to protect Elizabeth he has to stop loving her.

KHENTA: John's team rescues a woman fromt he Elemen. He name is Khenta and was once a pirate from Hetero. John takes an immediate attraction to her, much to Elizabeth's dismay. Elizabeth tells Teyla her true feelings for John.

DESPERATION: Elizabeth is injected with a nanovirus and is being forced to try and kill John. In order to stop herself, Elizabeth tries to kill herself. Desperate, John goes to the Tycar who tell them that they have to find the Stone of Oron to save her. John goes to Thesar, who surprisingly gives him the stone. When Elizabeth is safe, they have to disocver who is trying to kill John. John figures out that it was Khenta. When he confronts her, she has a gun to her head. UNTITLED: Ateda is attacked by the Elemen, and while John, Elizabeth and Ronon try to stop them, Rodney is stuck in a cave with Teyla. Things only get worse when Teyla goes into labor.
She tells him that she was hired by the Elemen to kill him, but because she fell in love with him, she couldn't. Khenta reprogramed the nanovirus to kill Elizabeth instead, but it had a fail safe and instead tried to kill John. She did this because Elizabeth was what was keeping John from loving her. Khneta tells John she can't live without him,a nd then kills herself.

UNTITLED: Elizabeth and Jorran (Teyla and Ronon's son) are captured by Carver. When Carver tries to probe her mind, she pushes him back and suddenly begins probing his. Carver escapes after John and his team rescue them.

POWERS: BEcause of what Elizabeth said about probing Carver's mind, John doeas soem experiments with her that proves that she can use the powers of the Elemen. She is less than thrilled, and doesn't want to wear the stone anymore. But when they run into soem Elemen, Elizabeth uses her powers to save her friends.

UNDERCOVER: Because of her powers, the Tycar ask Elizabeth to go undercover as one of the Elemen's high council. John goes with her in the disguise as her slave. John enjoys Elizabeth's scandelous outfit. (I have a funny scene in mind here) Things go well, but when Carver shows up they have to get out fast. In this episode, we learn that the Elemen have an emperor.

UNTITLED: I don't have any missions planned yet, but in this episode we find out what caused Elizabeth and John to end thier friendship after the Wraith were destroyed, but I'm not going to tell you what.

POWER UP: Caldwell tells John that Elizabeth tried to get him fired when they first left Atlantis. This causes John and Elizabeth to0 get in the worst arguement yet. Also, while on a mission John and his team run into an Elemen who takes the serum which makes him not only more powerful, but also insane. They have to destroy him before he blows up the whole planet. Lorne finds out about John's arguement, and does some digging. He gives John a tape of Elizabeth's ingterview, and JOhn listens to it. The tape shows that Caldwell lied to John, and in order to make amends, John goes to Elizabeth's room and...you will have to wait and see.

The rest of the story is secret.

[Bama]

When I first saw your post I read it as the "no Sparky scene"

Ding! Athena! I think we have a winner!

[FoolishPleasure]

My take on "ship" possibilities:

Shep/Weir - Most probable.

Shep/Teyla - Yawn. They don't even talk to each other.

McKay/Weir - Poor Rodney hasn't the slightest idea on what to do with a woman. Besides, he is still worshipping Carter.

Beckett/Weir - Nope.

Spoiler:

Beckett will get his own "ship" later in the season. *clapping*

Ronon/Weir - WTF????

Ronon/Teyla - Probably the most sparks between any of the characters so far, and I'm not sure it was intentional (sort of like Shep/Weir). I really enjoy these two in scenes together, and I actually like Teyla because of it.

Caldwell/Weir - Nope. Caldwell is too ambitious. But I do see him as the "Skinner" of SGA. Those who watched "X-Files" will know what I mean.

[gwenhwyfar]

My opinion on the different ships:

Shep/weir- The most interesting and probable. They look good together, can talk to eachother and have a lot in common. Plus, isn't she the only one who knows he's reading War and Peace?

Shep/Teyla-Boring! Absolutely NO chemestry!

McKay/Weir-Won't work. Weir's not blonde.

Beckett/Weir-Ok. Where did this come from? They may be great friends but... Plus carson and Laura are cute together.

Ronan/Weir-I agree with FP. WTF???

Ronan/Teyla-This intregues me. Can't wait to see where they go with this.

Caldwell/Weir-No. Way. In. Hell.

[xkawaiix]

Eeeeeee!!!!!! I love Return To Altantis! I highly recommend it!

As for the pairings:

Shep/Weir: Most likely to happen........ and it will!


Shep/Teyla: .................. I expeceted it to happen.............. but it didn't; not for me.

McKay/Weir: I have no problem with it. I've seen tidbits of it but like FP said, he's still worshipping Carter.

Beckett/Weir: I think Cadman will do him better.

Ronon/Weir: I dunno, that chess scene has me convinced.

Ronon/Teyla: It's gonna happen. Tis my baby ship and I love Ronon and Teyla's interaction with each other.

Caldwell/Weir: O_O

I think it was Pam (was it Pam?) that started the thread for this ship before s2 started. Well it's. Not. There. At. All. No. Ship. But his and her interaction tends to cause some tension with a whole bunch of characters so that's interesting.

[Vixen]

torrihigginson.free.fr
Weir, Sheppard and Bates are playing World Of Warcraft

Weir (Night Elf): Hey! I haven't even put up my defenses and you're already attacking me? Stop it!
Sheppard (Orc): You should've done that ages ago. Not my fault that you suck at on-line gaming, Elizabeth. Quit complaining.

[Whistler84]

torrihigginson.free.fr

Bates: Sir, Ma'am. We have a breech in security. One of the techies has been broadcasting sensitive surveillance video onto a public feed.
Weir: That's from the janitor's closet near Command Central! . . . And what?!!! They're giving us scores??
Bates: Yes, Ma'am. You scored an 8.5 on flexibility.
Sheppard: Hey, they gave me a 6 for creativity? You try being creative in that small space!