Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Hey ShipperWriter! You're not the only one who's wasted the whole day today. Me, I was delving deeper into my new fandom obsession: Iron Man and Tony/Pepper. Mmmm, I loves me some Pepperony. Never fear, though, my love for Sparky is stronger than ever! And now I have John pestering me to write a ficlet with him and Elizabeth watching Iron Man and trying to compare Team Atlantis to the Avengers...

So I've been wondering about something. Most of us agree, I think, that the PTB's handling of Carter being on the show was a major misstep, at least to different degrees. We may have thought of various reasons, but I at least thought there was the potential in the idea to make it work. Or at least work better than in the actual show.

I know that replacing Weir with Carter might not have been the best conceived idea to begin with but assuming had to work with the idea that SG-1 was cancelled, Higgionson was leaving and Carter was taking her spot, how do you guys think they could have written Carter in the show better?

To put it simply -- Carter was the new girl who didn't get hazed. I mean, during Year One of the Expedition being on Atlantis, Elizabeth got everything in the book thrown at her: dealing with the locals, whom you think may be ratting on you to the Wraith, an insolent scientist questioning her decisions and authority every chance he got, what amounted to insubordination from her military leader, insane alien lifeforms that tried to fool them into going back to "Earth" and the other local baddies, etc.

Carter had, what? Replicators. She had already gone through a couple rounds with them in the Milky Way. The city got quarantined and she was trapped in an elevator with Zelenka, who was probably more likely to figure out who to get them out because McKay was too busy hyperventilating about his SNAFU'd proposal. Then she fell into an old mining shaft with, OMG, the CMO of Atlantis. I mean, I'm not downgrading what she had to deal with, but that was kinda old hat for her.

And Torri didn't leave, she got the boot because AT essentially had seniority over her.

There was just a lot of things that could've been done better.

[/rant]

I couldn't have said this better myself. We needed more conflict with Carter. I've said many times that I wished TPTW had played up on the "Us (Atlantis) vs. Them (Earth)" conflict that seemed to rise up every time the IOA or Stargate Command tried to throw their weight around, yet was inexplicably put to rest by the end of the episode. Storywise, Weir was lost because the IOA and SGC went behind her back to get what they wanted, and in the end, Weir was lost, others were killed, and Atlantis was in many ways worse off than it was before they had upset the hornets' nest by attacking the Replicators in First Strike. That should've bred a helluva lot of resentment on the part of those in Atlantis, who respected and valued Weir's presence and her ability to pull them together as a family. But did we ever see it? Nope. And then in waltzes Carter, who's got her own baggage with Weir (and Replicators, albeit a different group), but do we ever see mistrust of Carter because of those conflicts? Do we see Carter struggle on a personal level to deal with her own ghosts? No, and no.

Instead, TPTW made Carter Weir!lite in the dialogue department and stripped her of all her military and science skills. While TPTW's reasoning that they didn't want to take too much away from the leads (Sheppard and McKay) was sound, it didn't have to be done at Carter's expense.

It could have been worse. Carter could've started wearing the red shirt.

*snorts*

I'm plowing my through our virtual season... makes my muse happy apparently. Earlier this evening she was running around frustrated. Right now, she's dozing happily in her lazy chair.

Heehee!

[TheLadyMore]

So I was riding in my car....and I swear my ipod (which was hooked to my Car) was in Spark mode today because it ept playing Sparky related songs in my opinion. To name just a few:

Neutron Star Collision-Muse
My Last Breath-Evanescence
Bring Me To Life- Evanescence
This Is How I Disappear- My Chemical Romance.

I think I need to make a Sparky fan mix soon.

[ShipperWriter]

Hey ShipperWriter! You're not the only one who's wasted the whole day today. Me, I was delving deeper into my new fandom obsession: Iron Man and Tony/Pepper. Mmmm, I loves me some Pepperony. Never fear, though, my love for Sparky is stronger than ever! And now I have John pestering me to write a ficlet with him and Elizabeth watching Iron Man and trying to compare Team Atlantis to the Avengers...

Haha, Pepperony. What a great shipper nickname! Although it makes me hungry ...

And that sounds like a great little fic! He already did it with the Fantastic Four, which I just rewatched on FX today. Can't wait for it! *sends fic bunnies for enforcement encouragement*

I couldn't have said this better myself. We needed more conflict with Carter. I've said many times that I wished TPTW had played up on the "Us (Atlantis) vs. Them (Earth)" conflict that seemed to rise up every time the IOA or Stargate Command tried to throw their weight around, yet was inexplicably put to rest by the end of the episode. Storywise, Weir was lost because the IOA and SGC went behind her back to get what they wanted, and in the end, Weir was lost, others were killed, and Atlantis was in many ways worse off than it was before they had upset the hornets' nest by attacking the Replicators in First Strike. That should've bred a helluva lot of resentment on the part of those in Atlantis, who respected and valued Weir's presence and her ability to pull them together as a family. But did we ever see it? Nope. And then in waltzes Carter, who's got her own baggage with Weir (and Replicators, albeit a different group), but do we ever see mistrust of Carter because of those conflicts? Do we see Carter struggle on a personal level to deal with her own ghosts? No, and no.

Instead, TPTW made Carter Weir!lite in the dialogue department and stripped her of all her military and science skills. While TPTW's reasoning that they didn't want to take too much away from the leads (Sheppard and McKay) was sound, it didn't have to be done at Carter's expense.

Mm-hmm. And also, with regards to team bonding, how often did we see Elizabeth grabbing lunch in the mess hall with John's team and being all friendly? I only remember the one time when she had lunch with John in TOR. But by the fourth episode, Carter is sitting with Team Shep in the mess hall after that ordeal. How the heck did she get so close all of a sudden?

I feel like the Carter who said goodbye to Teal'c in her lab isn't the same Carter who stepped through the 'Gate. Which is a shame, because the amount of snark she could've had with Rodney would have been epic. And I agree -- trying to make her a replacement for Elizabeth only dumbed Carter down.

Oh well. Who wants Sparkage?

[mandogater]

It could have been worse. Carter could've started wearing the red shirt.

Very true.

[gateraid]

Re How would you introduce Carter?

I've written many times that I think she should have been the commander of the Apollo. It's what TPTW hinted (I'm being generous, their words were "on her own ship") at while the story was in the development stage. I do not know why they changed their minds - it might've been scheduling, it might've been for a number of character reasons. It would've added to the 'star power' of FS, and been a continuity boon for the next season, in much the same way Woolsey carried over from TLM into s5. Having Carter deliberately take command when Weir was injured would've showcased her leadership abilities and allowed her and Rodney to work together to repair the city. Teyla could have gone on the mission (heavens, two girls on the team) and the injured Ronon stayed on Atlantis. Then she could have been absent for a couple of episodes later down the track before being officially named leader.

It took them a fair while to write her even close to how they wanted. They went with a softly-softly approach. Perhaps they were surprised when they looked at the finished version of DG and realised that she said "back when I was on SG-1" A LOT. The Seer made her look weak (IMO) when Sheppard had to coach her - had they simply removed that scene it would have made a world of difference. In Reunion, whilst she went on the mission, as soon as they ran into Sheppard, they deferred to him (mind you, this is no different to numerous occasions on SG-1 when Hammond and O'Neill were both present during a 'situation'). And yet later in Midway, when the mission was vitally important, she stayed in the control room (and NOBODY thought to at least try to dial Earth directly to block the wormhole - remember by that stage the Wraith hadn't dialled out - or see if they'd made a connection).

In Tabula Rasa, the veteran of "100 hours in the gulf" (to me, that says that she'd at least have to be a bit 'harder' than a regular geek) went the opposite way to what one would expect and went with the scientists, which may have something to do with the fact that she wasn't wearing her uniform. Speaking of...how was Sheppard Lorne's CO? Shouldn't that have been Carter (with Sheppard as her 2IC/Chief of Staff)? Or did she resign her commission when she stepped through the gate? I don't recall a time when she actually gave Sheppard an order. Heck, even Weir did that. She used the phrase twice (during Lifeline, and during ?? the ep with the hot Ancient with the lightening weapon) that I can recall, more than that if you count times like Hot Zone. The Carter/Ellis showdown in BAMSR was ridiculous - she should have brought Rodney into line, and her 'threat' to Ellis was unfounded ("okay, we'll just leave your supplies on board and head back to Earth then") - as was the decision to head off on the Deadalus to press "fire" instead of helping Rodney (arguably she had had more experience with the replicators than he had).

Then there's Trio. I get the rationale for it, I do. It was likely all 2nd Unit, and would've been able to fit into AT's schedule quite nicely. But they take her out of episodes where she should have been included (even if only briefly) only to put her in one that she could easily have been absent from. I don't necessarily think the "show them your boobs" was sexist (it was pretty innocent really, if a little juvenile) but having Carter step aside and let Rodney throw the hook was. Could you see Sheppard doing that? Didn't think so.

There were only a couple of times where I thought they got the characterisation right. Once was in Quarantine with Zelenka (although I did not get the impression from that ep that nobody liked him, as MG suggested) and the other was in S & R (although there were scenes in there I would 're-work'). AT herself even said that they dialled Carter back too far, because they didn't want to step on anyone's toes. I think had AT stayed for another season, Carter would have been much better received because they would have made a better fist of writing her by then.

Long story short: if you change the character (in this case, the leader) then change the writing. I loved it when they introduced Caldwell because he shook things up a bit, without being an antagonist. It annoyed me that by s3 (Sateda especially) he was their whipping boy, and made to appear weak. If you rate him on the antagonist scale, Runner was 8/10, Sateda was 2/10. I'd have liked it if Carter had been 6/10. If that makes any sense

[ShWeir]

So I was riding in my car....and I swear my ipod (which was hooked to my Car) was in Spark mode today because it ept playing Sparky related songs in my opinion. To name just a few:

Neutron Star Collision-Muse
My Last Breath-Evanescence
Bring Me To Life- Evanescence
This Is How I Disappear- My Chemical Romance.

I think I need to make a Sparky fan mix soon.

I know how ya feel, mine was playing;

You're the love I wanna be in- Jason Aldean
Amazed-Lonestar
You shouldn't kiss me like this-Toby Keith
To know love-Little Big Town

[ShipperWriter]

Very nice explanation, gateraid! Ain't that the truth.

I have a Sparky Playlist on my iPod, but it's mostly Taylor Swift, so ...

And RL crap:

Spoiler:

our landlord wants to refinance the property, so today before we get a new dishwasher installed, he's having someone come in to take pictures. It's more of a hassle because my sister is currently occupying one corner of the living room with everything she owns (thank goodness most of it fits under her bed). We have some painting touch ups to do, which isn't too bad, but I've gotta do them. And now my sister is dealing with the repurcussions of buying a wedding dress that wasn't in her budget. So it's making her a little hysterical. Ai yi yi.

[ShWeir]

You know I loved Sam in SG-1, but I didn't like her or Woolsey in Atlantis because they were supposed to be better than Elizabeth, which is never gunna happen.

[TheLadyMore]

Amazed-Lonestar

Oh god that song is perfect for them, well in John's POV, cause John I think is in awe that Elizabeth is always there for him.

I have a Sparky Playlist on my iPod, but it's mostly Taylor Swift, so ...

And RL crap:

Spoiler:

our landlord wants to refinance the property, so today before we get a new dishwasher installed, he's having someone come in to take pictures. It's more of a hassle because my sister is currently occupying one corner of the living room with everything she owns (thank goodness most of it fits under her bed). We have some painting touch ups to do, which isn't too bad, but I've gotta do them. And now my sister is dealing with the repurcussions of buying a wedding dress that wasn't in her budget. So it's making her a little hysterical. Ai yi yi.

Well uhh....Love Story can work...and Eyes Open...oh AND SAFE AND SOUND!

And -hugs SW You'll get through it dear.

[TheLadyMore]

You know I loved Sam in SG-1, but I didn't like her or Woolsey in Atlantis because they were supposed to be better than Elizabeth, which is never gunna happen.

Side Note AMEN SISTER!

[ShipperWriter]

Oh god that song is perfect for them, well in John's POV, cause John I think is in awe that Elizabeth is always there for him.

Well uhh....Love Story can work...and Eyes Open...oh AND SAFE AND SOUND!

And -hugs SW You'll get through it dear.

Hmm, all the TS songs from "Hunger Games". I see a trend. LOL Love your new sig, by the way!

Off to take care of some errands, be back later! Hopefully with some inspiration for GIMP/videos ...

*zips out*

[TheLadyMore]

Hmm, all the TS songs from "Hunger Games". I see a trend. LOL Love your new sig, by the way!

Off to take care of some errands, be back later! Hopefully with some inspiration for GIMP/videos ...

*zips out*

The Hunger Games is my favorite and I do have a fic in the works which Sparky is the uhhh lets say Everllark (cause the other name is ot family friendly) archtype.

And thank you I always thought: "Just when the Caterpillar..." quote was totally about Sheppard because seriously we all know he bloomed in Atlantis (thanks to a lovely woman who liked to wear red)

And yours is pretty wicked too =D

[ShWeir]

Oh "The Hunger Games" My friend Lara (The one with the dog named Sparky) is obssesed with "The Hunger Games"!

[TheLadyMore]

Oh "The Hunger Games" My friend Lara (The one with the dog named Sparky) is obssesed with "The Hunger Games"!

Im obsessed too. Mainly because Katniss reminds me of Sheppard in Teenage Girl form and Peeta is basically Katniss' version of Elizabeth. Im attempting to do that for my big bang this year.

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!

*hugs SW and sends her a virtual margarita*

*bows to gateraid* Well said, sir. Well said.

As for me, the rest of the day is mine to do with as I please, but what to choose? Oh, decisions, decisions.

You know I loved Sam in SG-1, but I didn't like her or Woolsey in Atlantis because they were supposed to be better than Elizabeth, which is never gunna happen.

Amen to that!

Oh god that song is perfect for them, well in John's POV, cause John I think is in awe that Elizabeth is always there for him.



Well uhh....Love Story can work...and Eyes Open...oh AND SAFE AND SOUND!

And -hugs SW You'll get through it dear.

Oh, I know, right? The first time I ever heard Safe and Sound, I immediately thought Sparky. *high-fives*