Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

A Short, John Gets hurt then Elizabeth Comforts him Ficlet.

Spoiler:

Freedom that was the only thing John Sheppard thought about as he ran with a Genii pistol clasped in his bound hands. It was a miracle that for the second time he was able to escape the clutches of Acastus Kolya. Then again the rebel Genii commander's fear of having his plans foiled again led to a crack in his air tight plot. It's amazing how pride could be a man's downfall. He was so focused on succeeding he forgot to order the one guard who was ordered to watch over him to bind his captive's feet.

As John ran the hallways of the underground bunker, he tried to figure a way out of this damn place before it was relayed to the crazed mastermind....

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN COLONEL SHEPPARD ESCAPED?" Kolya's loud and powerful voice roared. He sounded more enraged than ever, then again he was outsmarted by his nemesis for a second time. John cringed knowing that if McKay was outsmarted in such a way he'd be just as furious.

But those thoughts were interrupted when John realized he heard the sounds of Kolyas heavy boots hitting the ground becoming louder. Knowing he had to act fast he turned a corner and leaned his back against the brick wall.

"I want every man searching for him!" Kolya barked again, “I don’t care if you tear this place apart, Doctor Weir should arrive any minute and I need him as my bargaining tool.”

John took a sharp breath. Elizabeth was coming here to beg for his freedom? No, no, no this wasn’t happening. He thought at least Kolya would again broadcast his message to Atlantis by torturing him mercilessly in front of his teammates. Oh no, that wasn’t Kolya’s plan. That son of a ***** knew how much Elizabeth cared for him. He’d done it once through a video broadcast, lord knows what damage the man can do just by hurting him right in front of her.

NO! John had to get out of here! Then again if he escaped Kolya could take Elizabeth in his place and do unspeakable things to her. He grimaced at the thought. He took a sharp breath. He was a soldier and a clever man. He had figured a way out before, he can do it again.

“Well, well, well finding you wasn’t as difficult as I thought it would be,” Kolya said in a low sinister tone of voice. John turned around and faced his captor with his bound hands clutching his gun. Slowly and carefully he began stepping backwards. He remember “Colonel let’s make it easier for the both of us and just surrender, I promise no harm will come to you.”

John stumbled and lost his footing at those words. He felt his body hit the floor at those words, but his hands bound with plastic cuffs remained clasped around the pistol. He knew Kolya was lying, when was he ever truthful.

“You’re lying Kolya I know you are!” John growled pointing the gun upright towards his captor. The sounds of footsteps started echoing through the halls. There were more men coming to overpower and surround him “I won’t let you use me to break Elizabeth, not again.”

Kolya began walking closer. His hands clasped behind his back. He was planning something. John could see it in his eyes. His hands clasped harder on the gun debating whether or not to shoot him. If he shot Kolya he was at risk of being shot and killed by Kolya’s men, if he surrendered unspeakable things would happen for him for Kolya’s gain.

“You wanted to do this the hard way,” He said.

“Don’t come any closer Kolya,” John growled, “I’ll-“

He wasn’t able to finish his sentence. Before he could utter another word he felt Kolya’s foot collide with his gut. A strain cry left his lips as the gun dropped from his hands. He thought Kolya would just grab him by the collar and drag him away. No he wasn’t finish just yet.

Again and again Kolya’s foot collidied with his defenseless body. In the ribs, in the face, he even went as far as stomping no part of his boy was spared. At this point John was in so much pain he couldn’t move, he couldn’t breathe. It was like he was trampled by a herd of wildebeests. He rolled to his side so he wouldn’t choke from the blood creeping up his throat.

Time was slow as his body throbbed in agony. Whimpers involuntarily left his throat.

“You know if you had just been passive and surrendered yourself to me,” Kolya began stepping gently on his defenseless victim’s shoulder, causing his captive to tense beneath him.

“Just kill me,” John said hoarsely.

Kolya just chuckled and began to dig his foot deeper into his sore shoulder. At that point the pain was so great, all the images around him blurred.

“Not yet,” Kolya said with venom on his tongue, “I am having too much-“

And the last thing he remembered before passing out from the agony was a loud crash before everything faded to black.

John woke up a few moments later to the sensation of a hand running through his thick dark hair. He went to lift his head just for a moment only to have his head placed back down on what felt like someone’s lap.

“Rest John we got him,” he heard a familiar voice whisper.

“Elizabeth,” John croaked.

“Yes,” Elizabeth replied bending down to kiss his forehead, “you’re safe now.”

John’s hand weakily slithered to clasp into her own. He was in a lot of pain and he didn’t know if it was a dream or a hallucination, but whatever it was he was glad it was over.

Yup goes with my theory Kolyas the ultimate Sparky Shipper.

Kolya is definitely on the list of Sparky shippers. You whumped John a little too much for me but I love how he woke up.

Might I also suggest giving Sparky a boost in the favorite ships thread? I'd post the link but I'm not sure how to do it.

Thanks, I didn't even know about that one. It's here.

And it's time to vote again for best kiss.

You can just copy/paste the url for the thread if you don't want to bother with the html.

[Southern Red]

Yeah the question of replacing Weir brings up something I'd been meaning to discuss for a while now.

Carter and Woolsey didn't quite fill the void left by Elizabeth but given how much (or rather little) of a role they seemed to get compared to her I have to suspect they weren't really trying to fill it.

As in, they weren't just cutting the Elizabeth character from the show, they were cutting the very role she had played from the show. So I got the impression they were more precisely making the role of Expedition Leader less important. I think Carter and Woolsey couldn't quite have filled in the void even if they tried to with the number of appearances they had in Season 4 and 5. So even if they had kept Weir on the cast, she likley would have had drastically reduced importance and screen time. Maybe it's just me but, didn't it seem like that was what they were going for in the final seasons.

What I find strangest about this thought process is that I still found Elizabeth's role to be very important even by the time she was cut. I often hear it was because they struggled to think of reasons to include her all the time as episodes went by, but honestly every time I go back and watch Season 1-3 episodes it never really seemed to me like there were many problems justifying her appearance in the episodes she showed up in. In fact, by the end of Season 3, I felt if anyone was starting to feel left out by the writers it was Teyla. I'm glad they didn't give her character the axe but I think the "Wallpaper Teyla" issues had began by then and it got the point to where they almost might as well have by the end. But Elizabeth still felt like the second most important member of the cast right up until the end of her tenure on the show to me. In my opinion, even more than McKay, she was their leader after all.

Sorry for the double post but I forgot I wanted to reply to this.

That's a very good point that I actually had never considered. It does seem like they were trying to diminish her role and if I remember correctly, some of the comments from TPTB in S3 and beyond back this theory up. They really didn't think the character was "working". Whatever that means. But we know now from what the guys said on Sat that they thought she was working fine and wanted more of her. It sounds like Joe and David liked the scenes with Torri and wanted more. I know Joe once said he liked those longer scenes with her in a commentary. Conversion, I believe it was.

Again it comes down to bad writing and just not being in tune with the fans. How many times in those days did we talk about wanting her to go off world more and actually use her language skills? Lots of missed opportunity there.

[Eri13]

Yeah the question of replacing Weir brings up something I'd been meaning to discuss for a while now.

Carter and Woolsey didn't quite fill the void left by Elizabeth but given how much (or rather little) of a role they seemed to get compared to her I have to suspect they weren't really trying to fill it.

As in, they weren't just cutting the Elizabeth character from the show, they were cutting the very role she had played from the show. So I got the impression they were more precisely making the role of Expedition Leader less important. I think Carter and Woolsey couldn't quite have filled in the void even if they tried to with the number of appearances they had in Season 4 and 5. So even if they had kept Weir on the cast, she likley would have had drastically reduced importance and screen time. Maybe it's just me but, didn't it seem like that was what they were going for in the final seasons.

What I find strangest about this thought process is that I still found Elizabeth's role to be very important even by the time she was cut. I often hear it was because they struggled to think of reasons to include her all the time as episodes went by, but honestly every time I go back and watch Season 1-3 episodes it never really seemed to me like there were many problems justifying her appearance in the episodes she showed up in. In fact, by the end of Season 3, I felt if anyone was starting to feel left out by the writers it was Teyla. I'm glad they didn't give her character the axe but I think the "Wallpaper Teyla" issues had began by then and it got the point to where they almost might as well have by the end. But Elizabeth still felt like the second most important member of the cast right up until the end of her tenure on the show to me. In my opinion, even more than McKay, she was their leader after all.

Sorry for the double post but I forgot I wanted to reply to this.

That's a very good point that I actually had never considered. It does seem like they were trying to diminish her role and if I remember correctly, some of the comments from TPTB in S3 and beyond back this theory up. They really didn't think the character was "working". Whatever that means. But we know now from what the guys said on Sat that they thought she was working fine and wanted more of her. It sounds like Joe and David liked the scenes with Torri and wanted more. I know Joe once said he liked those longer scenes with her in a commentary. Conversion, I believe it was.

Again it comes down to bad writing and just not being in tune with the fans. How many times in those days did we talk about wanting her to go off world more and actually use her language skills? Lots of missed opportunity there.

I know that sometimes as writers we get into a rut and feel like we're just writing the same stuff over and over again, and that's what makes it feel like a character/role is stagnant.

However--you cannot argue to me that they didn't have some way to salvage Elizabeth if they felt she was going stagnant. As many of us have argued before--we saw how awesome Torri was in TRW, and there was such fun that could have been had if the Lifeline story had turned into Elizabeth becoming brainwashed or a leader of the replicators. Making her bad for a while would have been SO GOOD. And as a fan of Elizabeth, I would have enjoyed it, even if she was away from Atlantis for a while. That was only one of the many scenarios they could have been proposed to inject a little new blood into the formula. And the angst, oh! *sigh*

But either they were shortsighted or they were making up excuses. And nowhere can you tell me that in a show where the City is the focus--it's in the name, for Pete's sake--would the head of the City not have importance. That's just silly. But... *sigh*

[Southern Red]

I know that sometimes as writers we get into a rut and feel like we're just writing the same stuff over and over again, and that's what makes it feel like a character/role is stagnant.

However--you cannot argue to me that they didn't have some way to salvage Elizabeth if they felt she was going stagnant. As many of us have argued before--we saw how awesome Torri was in TRW, and there was such fun that could have been had if the Lifeline story had turned into Elizabeth becoming brainwashed or a leader of the replicators. Making her bad for a while would have been SO GOOD. And as a fan of Elizabeth, I would have enjoyed it, even if she was away from Atlantis for a while. That was only one of the many scenarios they could have been proposed to inject a little new blood into the formula. And the angst, oh! *sigh*

But either they were shortsighted or they were making up excuses. And nowhere can you tell me that in a show where the City is the focus--it's in the name, for Pete's sake--would the head of the City not have importance. That's just silly. But... *sigh*

Sometimes things that make perfect sense to us just didn't seem to compute with TPTB. And, as for the city being important, it looks like they forgot the title of their own show. It should have been changed to Stargate: SGA-1, or just "The Sheppard Team". LOL

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday!

Yeah the question of replacing Weir brings up something I'd been meaning to discuss for a while now.

Carter and Woolsey didn't quite fill the void left by Elizabeth but given how much (or rather little) of a role they seemed to get compared to her I have to suspect they weren't really trying to fill it.

As in, they weren't just cutting the Elizabeth character from the show, they were cutting the very role she had played from the show. So I got the impression they were more precisely making the role of Expedition Leader less important. I think Carter and Woolsey couldn't quite have filled in the void even if they tried to with the number of appearances they had in Season 4 and 5. So even if they had kept Weir on the cast, she likley would have had drastically reduced importance and screen time. Maybe it's just me but, didn't it seem like that was what they were going for in the final seasons.

What I find strangest about this thought process is that I still found Elizabeth's role to be very important even by the time she was cut. I often hear it was because they struggled to think of reasons to include her all the time as episodes went by, but honestly every time I go back and watch Season 1-3 episodes it never really seemed to me like there were many problems justifying her appearance in the episodes she showed up in. In fact, by the end of Season 3, I felt if anyone was starting to feel left out by the writers it was Teyla. I'm glad they didn't give her character the axe but I think the "Wallpaper Teyla" issues had began by then and it got the point to where they almost might as well have by the end. But Elizabeth still felt like the second most important member of the cast right up until the end of her tenure on the show to me. In my opinion, even more than McKay, she was their leader after all.

Brilliant post. I feel much the same way; that's why I've always called Elizabeth the "Heart of Atlantis." I see her as representative of just what the expedition is working for and trying to protect, the peace and safety of everyone back on Earth, and in many respects, she's the glue that has held the expedition together. It was pretty heavily implied as far back as "Rising" that she was heavily responsible for selecting those who would be going to Atlantis, and certainly she was the one who pushed for getting Sheppard added to the group over any objections the Air Force might have had. Weir, and the symbolic role she plays, was absolutely essential to the Atlantis story. It's like peanut butter and chocolate.

Sorry for the double post but I forgot I wanted to reply to this.

That's a very good point that I actually had never considered. It does seem like they were trying to diminish her role and if I remember correctly, some of the comments from TPTB in S3 and beyond back this theory up. They really didn't think the character was "working". Whatever that means. But we know now from what the guys said on Sat that they thought she was working fine and wanted more of her. It sounds like Joe and David liked the scenes with Torri and wanted more. I know Joe once said he liked those longer scenes with her in a commentary. Conversion, I believe it was.

Again it comes down to bad writing and just not being in tune with the fans. How many times in those days did we talk about wanting her to go off world more and actually use her language skills? Lots of missed opportunity there.

I've always felt that the arguments that the character "wasn't working" were total BS. Just look at episodes like "Trio" or "Inquisition." In "Trio," the whole story gets started because a group of people on a planet are refusing to move to safer ground even in the face of pretty dire evidence that they're screwed if they stay. Atlantis needs a negotiator. And they send Carter? Sure, she's the leader of Atlantis, but she's no diplomat. Weir, on the other hand, was tailor-made for just this kind of situation. The same is true of "Inquisition;" Woolsey's a relatively good fit for this episode as he is a lawyer dealing with what's essentially a court trial, but his style is more confrontational and grating, and I think Weir's more cool and even-handed style would have been better suited to dealing with the Coalition. It's nonsense like this that has led me to the belief that TPTW were just making up excuses for getting rid of Torri, and they knew all along that they couldn't truly justify it.

I know that sometimes as writers we get into a rut and feel like we're just writing the same stuff over and over again, and that's what makes it feel like a character/role is stagnant.

However--you cannot argue to me that they didn't have some way to salvage Elizabeth if they felt she was going stagnant. As many of us have argued before--we saw how awesome Torri was in TRW, and there was such fun that could have been had if the Lifeline story had turned into Elizabeth becoming brainwashed or a leader of the replicators. Making her bad for a while would have been SO GOOD. And as a fan of Elizabeth, I would have enjoyed it, even if she was away from Atlantis for a while. That was only one of the many scenarios they could have been proposed to inject a little new blood into the formula. And the angst, oh! *sigh*

But either they were shortsighted or they were making up excuses. And nowhere can you tell me that in a show where the City is the focus--it's in the name, for Pete's sake--would the head of the City not have importance. That's just silly. But... *sigh*

Shortsighted, making up excuses, or both. I'm thinking probably both.

Darnit, turning Weir "evil" for a half a season or so would've been great! Heck, that was what they were originally planning to with Daniel when they turned him into a Prior in Season 10 of SG-1, but they scrapped the plan and left him "evil" for only one episode. (Like the whole thing with Weir, it also felt rather rushed and forced to end too soon.) An "evil" Weir on the rampage would have been a fabulous way to shake up all the characters, not just Weir, and in a way that would have far more meaningful repercussions in terms of story development. But noooo...

Sometimes things that make perfect sense to us just didn't seem to compute with TPTB. And, as for the city being important, it looks like they forgot the title of their own show. It should have been changed to Stargate: SGA-1, or just "The Sheppard Team". LOL

*snorts*

[JT-2]

Yeah the question of replacing Weir brings up something I'd been meaning to discuss for a while now.

Carter and Woolsey didn't quite fill the void left by Elizabeth but given how much (or rather little) of a role they seemed to get compared to her I have to suspect they weren't really trying to fill it.

As in, they weren't just cutting the Elizabeth character from the show, they were cutting the very role she had played from the show. So I got the impression they were more precisely making the role of Expedition Leader less important. I think Carter and Woolsey couldn't quite have filled in the void even if they tried to with the number of appearances they had in Season 4 and 5. So even if they had kept Weir on the cast, she likley would have had drastically reduced importance and screen time. Maybe it's just me but, didn't it seem like that was what they were going for in the final seasons.

What I find strangest about this thought process is that I still found Elizabeth's role to be very important even by the time she was cut. I often hear it was because they struggled to think of reasons to include her all the time as episodes went by, but honestly every time I go back and watch Season 1-3 episodes it never really seemed to me like there were many problems justifying her appearance in the episodes she showed up in. In fact, by the end of Season 3, I felt if anyone was starting to feel left out by the writers it was Teyla. I'm glad they didn't give her character the axe but I think the "Wallpaper Teyla" issues had began by then and it got the point to where they almost might as well have by the end. But Elizabeth still felt like the second most important member of the cast right up until the end of her tenure on the show to me. In my opinion, even more than McKay, she was their leader after all.

Interesting post. I always thought that "Hammond" excuse was just that, an excuse. I looked at FH's list of screen time of city leader by season.

Season 1: 172m 10s
Season 2: 132m 10s
Season 3: 175m 4s
Season 4: 112m 43s

Note that AT wasn't in 6 episodes of Season 4, and that was mainly in the beginning of the season due to the movies. I have little doubt that her screen time would have equaled TH's if AT had stayed on for Season 5.

If you take the times PER EPISODE, then Carter had the same time as Elizabeth

Season 1: 8.6 m
Season 2: 6.6 m
Season 3: 8.8 m
Season 4: 8.1 m

[Scary Kitty]

Interesting post. I always thought that "Hammond" excuse was just that, an excuse.

Yeah, the Hammond comparison has always annoyed me. If there's any character on SG-1 that Weir most resembles in terms of skill set, it's Daniel, not Hammond.

I looked at FH's list of screen time of city leader by season.

Season 1: 172m 10s
Season 2: 132m 10s
Season 3: 175m 4s
Season 4: 112m 43s

Note that AT wasn't in 6 episodes of Season 4, and that was mainly in the beginning of the season due to the movies. I have little doubt that her screen time would have equaled TH's if AT had stayed on for Season 5.

If you take the times PER EPISODE, then Carter had the same time as Elizabeth

Season 1: 8.6 m
Season 2: 6.6 m
Season 3: 8.8 m
Season 4: 8.1 m

Of course, what it's really all about is quality rather than quantity. Frankly, it felt like most of Carter's lines in S4 were written for Weir, and because of that, Carter always seemed like a bad fit, like she was shoehorned into a role that she just wasn't suited to. Darn shame.

[Falcon Horus]

Yeah the question of replacing Weir brings up something I'd been meaning to discuss for a while now.

Well, if you look at the screentime...

Interesting post. I always thought that "Hammond" excuse was just that, an excuse. I looked at FH's list of screen time of city leader by season.

Season 1: 172m 10s
Season 2: 132m 10s
Season 3: 175m 4s
Season 4: 112m 43s

Note that AT wasn't in 6 episodes of Season 4, and that was mainly in the beginning of the season due to the movies. I have little doubt that her screen time would have equaled TH's if AT had stayed on for Season 5.

If you take the times PER EPISODE, then Carter had the same time as Elizabeth

Season 1: 8.6 m
Season 2: 6.6 m
Season 3: 8.8 m
Season 4: 8.1 m

...Nevermind, JT-2 beat me to it.

Of course, what it's really all about is quality rather than quantity.

Yes, true... but without the proper amount of quantity, quality is going to be much harder to achieve. Not impossible of course... Look at Rachel who got such limited time, but still came out brilliant. She made every second count.

Sometimes things that make perfect sense to us just didn't seem to compute with TPTB. And, as for the city being important, it looks like they forgot the title of their own show. It should have been changed to Stargate: SGA-1, or just "The Sheppard Team". LOL

Stargate: McKay - right?

I think I still have the intro to that show somewhere.... it's about as long as the intro to LOST.

Tadaaa!!

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Referring to Weir as Hammond struck me as hollow because while I loved the General Hammond and never had any problems with him, I found his absence the easiest to adjust to. Weir's was the hardest. I think it's because they have different places in the cast. Hammond was their military superior, he was the one who had all the final calls (most of the time) Weir was the leader of the expedition but since she was a civilian she had to collaborate with them as well. Plus given she stepped through the wormhole into the unknown at the same time as them at the start of the show, she felt much more like a colleague of Rodney and John and just a superior.

[Probie]

You're welcome for the link. I'm not here often so I try to be back with something.

All the conversations make me want to watch SGA again. I don't know if I will be tired of this show one day.

[TheLadyMore]

Stargate: McKay - right?

I think I still have the intro to that show somewhere.... it's about as long as the intro to LOST.

Tadaaa!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBL_uvSsj5o

Oh gosh youknow if it is the McKay Show you know how every single Shep whump Moment will go down if the show was focused on Mckay:



On a more serious note. I am rather P.Oed on what the TPTW decided to do with Elizabeth, but I am more angry about HOW they decided to get rid of her. At least if you want to kill off one of the most epic women in Stargate do it in a way that is IN HER CHARACTER. I mean come on! Turning Elizabeth into an evil person and turning her against her city with no resolution in sight its a *****slap against Weir's character. If at least I dont know, GiTM or TMC turned out differently like John makes her remember who she was and what she stood for then maybe she wouldnt be floating in space somewhere with the enemy and John wouldnt still beat himself up.

I mean I be upset if indeed it was written that Elizabeth died saving the city from the Replicators, but at least I can be assured she died in a way that was more fitting to her character not totally warped. If I am making any sense?

[JT-2]

I'm so glad that work is over today. It taxed my brain.

Of course, what it's really all about is quality rather than quantity. Frankly, it felt like most of Carter's lines in S4 were written for Weir, and because of that, Carter always seemed like a bad fit, like she was shoehorned into a role that she just wasn't suited to. Darn shame.

Ok this is totally OT for this thread, so...

Spoiler:

To me it all comes down to one thing - they wanted to work with AT. Just like with JS. They didn't think through HOW they should include those characters though, and shoehorned them into roles that didn't suit them. (a 25 year old CMO... please! ) And that's why Carter started sounding like Weir and Keller did Wraith genetic research like Carson. It had nothing to do with the roles of Weir and Carson - it was the desire to work with AT and JS.

Or maybe I'm just too cynical for my own good.

And they couldn't write for Elizabeth/had no stories for her/etc? See FH's research. Elizabeth had more screen time in S3 than any other season. They certainly wrote her in S3. That just magically went away at S4? Please.

I do also wonder if they thought getting rid of Elizabeth would make a certain other ship more popular.

Well, if you look at the screentime...

...Nevermind, JT-2 beat me to it.



Yes, true... but without the proper amount of quantity, quality is going to be much harder to achieve. Not impossible of course... Look at Rachel who got such limited time, but still came out brilliant. She made every second count.

LOL! Hey, I'm mathgirl after all. Give me hard numbers and I'm all over it.

And yes, Rachel (and Jason) certainly did. I just imagine them highlighting their lines... wouldn't have taken a lot of ink.

Referring to Weir as Hammond struck me as hollow because while I loved the General Hammond and never had any problems with him, I found his absence the easiest to adjust to. Weir's was the hardest. I think it's because they have different places in the cast. Hammond was their military superior, he was the one who had all the final calls (most of the time) Weir was the leader of the expedition but since she was a civilian she had to collaborate with them as well. Plus given she stepped through the wormhole into the unknown at the same time as them at the start of the show, she felt much more like a colleague of Rodney and John and just a superior.

Yes, exactly. It's not SG-1. It's Atlantis. Totally different concept. They should have remembered that.

I mean I be upset if indeed it was written that Elizabeth died saving the city from the Replicators, but at least I can be assured she died in a way that was more fitting to her character not totally warped. If I am making any sense?

Although it would have made me really sad, I wonder if they should have just bit the bullet and kill her off in Lifeline.

[Falcon Horus]

LOL! Hey, I'm mathgirl after all. Give me hard numbers and I'm all over it.

Then I'm glad to be of service.

And yes, Rachel (and Jason) certainly did. I just imagine them highlighting their lines... wouldn't have taken a lot of ink.

They probably missed a few lines because they got lost in McKay's expanded pages of text.

Rachel and Jason joked about it at a con once, how little they had to say.

Jason isn't doing much better as Khal Drogo in Game of Thrones though. Talk about type casting... but he never the less looks pretty awesome.

[Scary Kitty]

I'm so glad that work is over today. It taxed my brain.

*passes over one of those yummy cold drinks with a paper umbrella*

Ok this is totally OT for this thread, so...

Spoiler:

To me it all comes down to one thing - they wanted to work with AT. Just like with JS. They didn't think through HOW they should include those characters though, and shoehorned them into roles that didn't suit them. (a 25 year old CMO... please! ) And that's why Carter started sounding like Weir and Keller did Wraith genetic research like Carson. It had nothing to do with the roles of Weir and Carson - it was the desire to work with AT and JS.

Or maybe I'm just too cynical for my own good.

And they couldn't write for Elizabeth/had no stories for her/etc? See FH's research. Elizabeth had more screen time in S3 than any other season. They certainly wrote her in S3. That just magically went away at S4? Please.

I do also wonder if they thought getting rid of Elizabeth would make a certain other ship more popular.

Nah, I don't think you're being too cynical. You're just being realistic and calling it what it is. In all of its disappointing permutations.

Yes, exactly. It's not SG-1. It's Atlantis. Totally different concept. They should have remembered that.

Yes, they should have. Atlantis might have stayed on for another season and gotten a better ending if they had, but we'll never know.

Although it would have made me really sad, I wonder if they should have just bit the bullet and kill her off in Lifeline.

According to one of the DVD commentaries (for "Adrift," I think? I don't have the S4 DVDs), if Torri had decided to not come back for Season 4 at all after they told her they were reducing Weir's role on the show, the plan would've been to kill Weir off in "Adrift." But as we all know, Torri stuck it out for as long as she did in the hopes that the character would get a storyline that would be more satisfying for the fans. Sadly, TPTW seemed to be more interested in playing with the new toys and simply blew off Torri and the fans.

[JT-2]

I should probably stop posting cause my kidney stone meds are making me haaappy

I've always felt that the arguments that the character "wasn't working" were total BS. Just look at episodes like "Trio" or "Inquisition." In "Trio," the whole story gets started because a group of people on a planet are refusing to move to safer ground even in the face of pretty dire evidence that they're screwed if they stay. Atlantis needs a negotiator. And they send Carter? Sure, she's the leader of Atlantis, but she's no diplomat. Weir, on the other hand, was tailor-made for just this kind of situation.

I can't imagine Rodney telling Elizabeth to flash her breasts to those kids. And if he had, she would have just given him the eyebrow and said "Excuse me?" He would have felt bad and apologized. I don't see him even suggesting it with Elizabeth around.

This is one example of why getting rid of Elizabeth was bad for the whole cast dymanic, IMO. There was no one there to curtail Rodney. He respected Elizabeth. That was one of my favorite relationships. And of course, there was no one around for John to talk to anymore. Poor woobie John.

They probably missed a few lines because they got lost in McKay's expanded pages of text.

Rachel and Jason joked about it at a con once, how little they had to say.

Jason isn't doing much better as Khal Drogo in Game of Thrones though. Talk about type casting... but he never the less looks pretty awesome.

Rodney is my third favorite character (after Elizabeth and John), but I agree that it got quite ridiculous as the seasons went on.

*passes over one of those yummy cold drinks with a paper umbrella*

Yay! Pink fruity drinks!!

According to one of the DVD commentaries (for "Adrift," I think? I don't have the S4 DVDs), if Torri had decided to not come back for Season 4 at all after they told her they were reducing Weir's role on the show, the plan would've been to kill Weir off in "Adrift." But as we all know, Torri stuck it out for as long as she did in the hopes that the character would get a storyline that would be more satisfying for the fans. Sadly, TPTW seemed to be more interested in playing with the new toys and simply blew off Torri and the fans.

Yup. Torri gave it her all.