Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Easter Lily]

Interesting point. You're right -- Weir doesn't fit into that 'stereotypical' image of a woman in a position of power. You know, you have to be tough and hard and have no emotion to be in charge of men, because they expect to to be 'like them'. I think the fact that she feels for her people (LFP!), has emotion, and is approachable adds to her power.
You know -- the whole 'more flies with honey' argument relates here. She's a nice girl, and she cares, but don't mess with her, because she can put you in your place with just a few words.

I don't have a problem with a woman in a position of power showing some feeling... in fact I don't have a problem with a man in power showing some feeling either... An intelligent/capable leader can express emotions without allowing his/her emotions to impair their ability to make good decisions. I think Weir has proven in Season 2 that she can make the tough decisions even if they fly in the face of her feelings

I don't care for the idea of "toughness" as someone who barks orders, kicks behinds or wins glaring competitions. That's superficial and theatrical. It's much more interesting to see the strength of the character through how he/she deals with circumstances. The ability to make the difficult decisions is what makes the leader "tough".

[Chrysalis]

I don't have a problem with a woman in a position of power showing some feeling... in fact I don't have a problem with a man in power showing some feeling either... An intelligent/capable leader can express emotions without allowing his/her emotions to impair their ability to make good decisions. I think Weir has proven in Season 2 that she can make the tough decisions even if they fly in the face of her feelings

I don't care for the idea of "toughness" as someone who barks orders, kicks behinds or wins glaring competitions. That's superficial and theatrical. It's much more interesting to see the strength of the character through how he/she deals with circumstances. The ability to make the difficult decisions is what makes the leader "tough".

This is where Atlantis has the chance to recreate the whole 'woman in charge' role. I agree -- the barking orders toughness isn't appealing whether it's a man or a woman doing the barking!

[ubiquitous]

Speaking of that, I think that is one of the reasons so many people are Anti-Weir. Because she is not the "traditional" woman in charge. So many women in charge on tv are portrayed as "tough". Not very emotional, like Janeway. Or Kerry on ER. But Elizabeth shows emotion. She worries about her people. She has feelings for a guy. Remember how Janeway brutally rejected Chakotay? Elizabeth is not afraid to be human.

I dunno. I would think that it's more that she /doesn't/ seem 'tough' enough that has people Anti-Weir. I mean, for all that she's commander, she does show her feelings (which I will say is a good thing), but more importantly, she's seen as weak because she can't defend herself physically. There are several episodes which show her as being defenceless in season 1, and while towards the end of season 1 and in season 2 she's a little less so, she still has that image of being unable to physically defend herself.

[Chrysalis]

I dunno. I would think that it's more that she /doesn't/ seem 'tough' enough that has people Anti-Weir. I mean, for all that she's commander, she does show her feelings (which I will say is a good thing), but more importantly, she's seen as weak because she can't defend herself physically. There are several episodes which show her as being defenceless in season 1, and while towards the end of season 1 and in season 2 she's a little less so, she still has that image of being unable to physically defend herself.

I agree that showing her feelings is a good thing.
On the defenceless thing -- my theory is that that's what the military's for. There are plenty of scientists who are also unable to protect themselves physically. John and his people are there to take care of them in that way.
Elizabeth's job is to run the show, the military's job is to make sure she's safe while doing that..
I like the comment -- can't remember who from -- that Elizabeth will never carry a gun.

[ubiquitous]

Oh I agree that that is what the military is for, but I don't think her needing to rely on the military fits in with the 'tough' image expected of a leader in Weir's position and could be one of the reason why people are a bit anti-Weir.

[Chrysalis]

Oh I agree that that is what the military is for, but I don't think her needing to rely on the military fits in with the 'tough' image expected of a leader in Weir's position and could be one of the reason why people are a bit anti-Weir.

See the way I see it, most leaders don't have to defend themselves. The Aussie PM John Howard has his security people, Bush has his security people, as does Blair in the UK. None of them carries a gun around. Elizabeth's in the same sort of position as them. She's the leader -- she's the one who makes the decisions. She's tough in her own way --- she doesn't need to kill people or shoot at people to prove it..

[ubiquitous]

Yes, but women seem to get double standards. Not to mention that John Howard doesn't really need to protect himself from anything (except Beazley, which isn't really all that hard for him to do). And Bush has his own 'tough' image in other respects. And she does also show a lot of personal sympathy for the characters, which doesn't help the 'tough leader' image.

Don't get the wrong idea - I'm very much a Weir fangirl, I'm just trying to explain why I think that there may be a bit of anti-Weir sentiment.

[Chrysalis]

Yes, but women seem to get double standards. Not to mention that John Howard doesn't really need to protect himself from anything (except Beazley, which isn't really all that hard for him to do). And Bush has his own 'tough' image in other respects. And she does also show a lot of personal sympathy for the characters, which doesn't help the 'tough leader' image.

Don't get the wrong idea - I'm very much a Weir fangirl, I'm just trying to explain why I think that there may be a bit of anti-Weir sentiment.

Hmmm. I still think the anti-Weir sentiments come mostly from people with other agendas.... I won't go into it though ....

[Simple Hope]

TWiMC:

If you happen to feel that once W/S becomes canon it'll be fun to smirk at the T/S fans, then you're welcome to your feelings. But it might be a good idea not to air them. If you did, you might give people the impression that you're a petty sort who'd revel in the discomfort of another, and I'm sure no one here thinks of themself as anything like that.

Cheers.

Guess that refers to me. I'm really very sorry to any Sheyla fans that I offended with my comments. I honestly didn't mean for it to come out so rude and I'm truly sorry.

[ubiquitous]

Hmmm. I still think the anti-Weir sentiments come mostly from people with other agendas.... I won't go into it though

Does that mean anti S/W agendas?? *confused*

[FoolishPleasure]

I dunno. I would think that it's more that she /doesn't/ seem 'tough' enough that has people Anti-Weir. I mean, for all that she's commander, she does show her feelings (which I will say is a good thing), but more importantly, she's seen as weak because she can't defend herself physically. There are several episodes which show her as being defenceless in season 1, and while towards the end of season 1 and in season 2 she's a little less so, she still has that image of being unable to physically defend herself.

I think it was Cooper who said Weir would never carry a gun, and I hope they stick to it. We don't need "Xena" all over the place. I want to see intelligent women as good role models for girls who want to go into scientific fields, or positions of leadership (like Carter or Weir). They use their BRAINS. Besides, Weir has all those hunky soldiers around her.

[Chrysalis]

I think it was Cooper who said Weir would never carry a gun, and I hope they stick to it. We don't need "Xena" all over the place. I want to see intelligent women as good role models for girls who want to go into scientific fields, or positions of leadership (like Carter or Weir). They use their BRAINS. Besides, Weir has all those hunky soldiers around her.

That's the comment I was thinking off. I'm also hoping they stick to that promise with Elizabeth. It would be against who she is to start running around like a dark-haired Scully aiming guns at aliens!!

[Easter Lily]

I think it was Cooper who said Weir would never carry a gun, and I hope they stick to it. We don't need "Xena" all over the place. I want to see intelligent women as good role models for girls who want to go into scientific fields, or positions of leadership (like Carter or Weir). They use their BRAINS. Besides, Weir has all those hunky soldiers around her.

Yeah, I'm with you FP... We already have one warrior woman in Atlantis and I don't feel the need for Weir to have to prove herself as some female Ramboesque figure. Her strengths lie elsewhere... in administration, in languages, in keeping an international team of scientists working together. I don't think we should belittle what she does just because she doesn't wave a gun around. If anyone thinks that running a facility like Atlantis doesn't require much skill, experience and sheer force of will, they are sadly mistaken.

[LurkerLa]

I think it was Cooper who said Weir would never carry a gun, and I hope they stick to it. We don't need "Xena" all over the place. I want to see intelligent women as good role models for girls who want to go into scientific fields, or positions of leadership (like Carter or Weir). They use their BRAINS. Besides, Weir has all those hunky soldiers around her.

Like Lorne and, of course, Shep.

I can see where y'all are coming from with the defenseless thing, though. When you think about it, most American presidential candidates have made a big deal about their military service - and when they haven't served it becomes an issue. People aren't as used to thinking of having an ability to negotiatie, to use words over physical force, as a strong defensive mechanism. So because Weir doesn't have the "action" experience, some might see her as being weaker. I think if TPTB make more use of her diplomatic experience, and show that she's not just there to say "okay" or "no" to the missions, it will help others see what we do - that LIZ ROCKS! They've already done so somewhat, in Seige II and in... Condemned, was it? If they just keep building on that, more people will know that being a strong leader doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with physical strength or ability.

And to keep this slightly on topic, this is another reason to like Shep/Weir - they complement each other. (Okay, that was a pathetic attempt not to drift too far off topic )

[Bama]

Wow, the aussies really did some butt-kickin on the thread whilst we westerners slumbered! I love that! Gives me about two dozen new post to read thru when I get to work.

As for the big 'debate', I can certainly see why Elizabeth would personally want to learn how to defend herself and whether that means self-defense training or a gun would be a personal choice for her. I would think the training would be more beneficial given that she abhors guns and she has a her own protection force.

Being a leader is not about how 'manly' one can be or how 'tough' sounding or looking or somesuch crap imo. It's about the inner strength you have to stand down adversity and make a decision that may not be the popular one but is nonetheless the one you feel best or convicted about. A leader must be willing to work through the rough times to accomplish the bigger goals. A leader needs to be a good listener as well as a good communicator.

Now EW, has many of those characteristics in spades and others she is developing on the fly. Keep in mind that she's never been a leader of men and women before and this situation is unique to all other leadership roles before her. She's forging new ground and making new rules and she's looking to john to stand beside her and support her and is unashamed of it.

I love how strong she is and yet how she doesn't forget who Elizabeth is as a person and a woman. I feel like I could follow her in battle and be her friend.