Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

And the thing is they brought in Sam to replace Elizabeth to maybe bring over some more SG1 fans to Atlantis, but Atlantis Sam is barely recognizable as sg1 sam. i really liked sg1 sam. But atlantis sam, i mean they, dumbed her down, and sexed her up, shes military, y the in the world is she in a skin tight leather outfit, she should be in either a dress iniform or bdu's.I hate reading the interviews with the costume designer for season 4, shes always saying she wanted the costumes to be sexier, more fitted. meanwhile i'm thinking theyre a scientific/military outpost, fighting life sucking aliens and evil robots, sexy should not be a priority. If they wanted amanda there, they didnt have to get rid of elizabeth. I mean, in New Order, Sam and Elizabeth, were good in there scenes together. sorry for the rant.

Oh, rant on! They made such a big deal about how great it was that Carter was coming to Atlantis, and it ended up being such a waste of time. All I could think when it was announced that Tapping wasn't returning for Season 5 because she was going to be putting her full time into her own series was, 'man, I'll bet she's glad to be getting away from being wallpaper on Stargate.'

And don't get me started on the costumes, that was one of my biggest pet peeves! The new costume designer for Seasons 4 and 5 was totally clueless. When I was studying costume design at USC, one of the things that was drilled into us was to create designs that were appropriate to the setting. The original expedition uniform from Seasons 1-3 with its functional cargo-style trousers and all-weather jackets, and the military BDUs worn on SG-1, were far more appropriate to the setting of a modern-day scientific/military expedition to another galaxy than the fashion plate wannabe tightly-fitted pantsuits and leather jackets. Ugh.

i never really got the reasoning that because woolsey had no history with todd that he'd be a good choice to go.

Sam was still Col Samantha Carter and shouldve been in uniform, I mean i didn't see Caldwell in a new leather outfit, i guess he wasnt sexy enough to carry it off lol

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Oh, that was a good one!

[Scary Kitty]

Gateraid made a lot of good points as to why this happened, but for me this is still reason #1. And honestly, I can't fault TPTB for part of their reasoning because I think it came true - some new fans started watching because Sam was there. But of course they didn't take into account the flip side of that which was losing many Elizabeth fans. And where they really blew it was they didn't think outside the box by MOVING Elizabeth to another position in Atlantis and letting Sam command. They could have had their cake and eaten it too.

It'd be interesting to know how many of those "new" viewers left when Tapping did.

And yes, why couldn't they have simply moved Elizabeth to another position on Atlantis? Oh wait, that would've required them to keep Torri on the cast.

On another note, this thread continues to be oh so very entertaining! Whenever I get the chance to peek in here there's always a lively discussion going on. Viva la Sparky!

And hey!

We just crossed 97,000 posts! Way to go, Sparkies! Let's keep it up!

[VampyreWraith]

Oh, rant on! They made such a big deal about how great it was that Carter was coming to Atlantis, and it ended up being such a waste of time. All I could think when it was announced that Tapping wasn't returning for Season 5 because she was going to be putting her full time into her own series was, 'man, I'll bet she's glad to be getting away from being wallpaper on Stargate.'

And don't get me started on the costumes, that was one of my biggest pet peeves! The new costume designer for Seasons 4 and 5 was totally clueless. When I was studying costume design at USC, one of the things that was drilled into us was to create designs that were appropriate to the setting. The original expedition uniform from Seasons 1-3 with its functional cargo-style trousers and all-weather jackets, and the military BDUs worn on SG-1, were far more appropriate to the setting of a modern-day scientific/military expedition to another galaxy than the fashion plate wannabe tightly-fitted pantsuits and leather jackets. Ugh.

I agree with everything u said especially about the costumes and the cluelessness of the new designer.

[gateraid]

Gateraid made a lot of good points as to why this happened, but for me this is still reason #1. And honestly, I can't fault TPTB for part of their reasoning because I think it came true - some new fans started watching because Sam was there. But of course they didn't take into account the flip side of that which was losing many Elizabeth fans. And where they really blew it was they didn't think outside the box by MOVING Elizabeth to another position in Atlantis and letting Sam command. They could have had their cake and eaten it too.

On another note, this thread continues to be oh so very entertaining! Whenever I get the chance to peek in here there's always a lively discussion going on. Viva la Sparky!

I didn't follow the ratings at all, but I'd bet it did work. AT (& RP) had a profile. To me, once I adjusted to the loss, it was more about seeing AT play Weir, rather than Carter. I thought s4 was terrible, but s5 got me interested again. Not as good as the earlier seasons, but much improved.

They also probably didn't take account of the effect of losing Weir on other characters. John never really had anyone to play off after that.

A lot of SG1 fans who liked Sam in sg1, like me , were very unhappy about Atlantis Sam, and her characterization.
And i agree about it wouldve been better to move elizabeth and have sam in charge, but then they couldve done john/elizabeth with out chain of command issues. which i dont know what the problem wouldve been there cuz rachel was pregnant, but i dont think they knew till they already made the casting changes so it mightve been to late. i dunno lol doesnt really make sense. But then again they might not have been able to afford both.

I rewatched New Order the other day. Its surprising now to look at the Weir/Carter dynamic. Carter was actually quite bold with her, an attitude that she'd never displayed before.

TPTW never quite grasped the leadership role of Atlantis. Whenever somebody attacked, it was Weir in the control room coordinating the response. Surely that should've been the responsibility of the duty military officer (in an attack, at least Lt. Col or higher). They could've still had a civilian head, overseeing a military base, similar to what they did (temporarily) with the SGC

[Irish Eyes]

A lot of SG1 fans who liked Sam in sg1, like me , were very unhappy about Atlantis Sam, and her characterization.
And i agree about it wouldve been better to move elizabeth and have sam in charge, but then they couldve done john/elizabeth with out chain of command issues. which i dont know what the problem wouldve been there cuz rachel was pregnant, but i dont think they knew till they already made the casting changes so it mightve been to late. i dunno lol doesnt really make sense. But then again they might not have been able to afford both.

I remember that about the Sam fans. How ironic, yes? And maybe they couldn't afford both, but who knows? Could also be a convenient excuse. Ah well, we will never know unless someone on the inside writes a tell-all book and then we'll have a new set of "facts" to debate. LOL

It'd be interesting to know how many of those "new" viewers left when Tapping did.

And yes, why couldn't they have simply moved Elizabeth to another position on Atlantis? Oh wait, that would've required them to keep Torri on the cast.

From some of the posts on GW it seemed split. Some left, but some liked it enough to stay. Should we talk about the ratings?

And hey!

We just crossed 97,000 posts! Way to go, Sparkies! Let's keep it up!

YAY!!!!!!! Can't keep a good ship down!

[gateraid]

I remember that about the Sam fans. How ironic, yes? And maybe they couldn't afford both, but who knows? Could also be a convenient excuse. Ah well, we will never know unless someone on the inside writes a tell-all book and then we'll have a new set of "facts" to debate. LOL

Money is something I'd never considered. A tell-all book would be very interesting. But would we believe it?

From some of the posts on GW it seemed split. Some left, but some liked it enough to stay. Should we talk about the ratings?

Woof

[gateraid]

I haven't done one of these in a while, so:

Spoiler:

You guys are watching football? And you didn't invite me?


Wuh? Do you like football?


No. I just liked that trick you did with the popcorn last time
What trick was that?


Oh, that. It's an old custom. You see, you cut a whole in the bottom of the popcorn bowl, then when the girl reaches in, she grabs.......
She grabs....oh. I will never understand your customs

Spoiler:

I am so horny right now. I sure hope we find Jinto soon. Everything I see reminds me of sex


:halling: blah blah, ancient ritual


Seriously, Halling, seriously?

I couldn't find a front on image of that

Spoiler:

Before I die, I just want to know why your nickname for Sheppard is Lt Colonel Pinochio


Oh, right, the mind reading. It's because he has an everlasting supply of wood


Was it really necessary to tell him that?
He can read minds. He would've figured it out eventually

[Fionnait]

I'd like to buy the Atlantis companion books, but I have so many books in my house, I don't have any room left. I'm considering to buy an e-book reader, but there are so many models and most of them are expensive I don't really know if it's worth it or not. But it would be good for purchasing foreign book in electronic format, including the Stargate ones. Any advice?

I love books! I'd never buy an e-book reader, it's just not the same. Plus books are really decorative and isolate the walls well *g*

Okay, that one isn't that smutty, but this fic I'm working on just reached the good part. FINALLY.

Does this mean we'll get to read it soon?

I also have the first three companion books and I'm no interested in buying the other two. Although I'd like to check in the 4th one how they talk about Torri leaving.

I would have said that they keep shtum about it entirely, but what we got is not much more informative. Some set phrases and blabla.


The funny thing is I used to be a Sam fan in early SG1 seasons. I also used to be a big Sam/Jack shipper. They screwed up Sam in the later seasons and messed up Sam/Jack by endless non-delivery, even though they had long passed the point of no return.

[nephtys59]

From the season 4 companion book:
"For various reasons, the production found it necessary to write out the character of Dr Elizabeth Weir, played by Torri Higginson. The decision had actually been made at the conclusion of season three. The writers had always found weir a difficult character to intergrate into the Atlantis enviroment, with all its inherent jeopardy- as a civilian diplomat with no military backround, Weir's function as part of the Pegasus Project was difficult to flesh out.Finding reasons to take her offworld and into the heart of the story could easily feel contrived. Yet having her be the character that stayed in the city watching the teams come and go did not make for a fullfilling role, either for the writers or Higgenson. Eventually the producers felt the only solution was to replace the character. "

And by replacing the character they killed SGA eventually.
Carter and Woolsey didn't add anything to the story, because they were both written as sort-of-Weir, so they did a disservice to both of them. Carter (the hero of Sg1) was reduced to nothing and Woolsey was so out of place it seemed ridiculous.
What a terrible mistake they did by eliminating Elizabeth, just because they didn't know HOW to write her! I'm still mad at them!
They didn't want to have Weir as Atlantis leader anymore? Fine, use Adrift/Lifeline as a way to change things. I actually liked those episodes, and after leaving Weir on the Replicator planet there were hundreds of solutions to get her back and reasons to change her position when back to Atlantis.
The probable conflicts with Carter as the new leader would have been really interesting to watch, but the writers were not up to the job.
And now they chose another incompetent writer for the books, who's going to kill everything good in the characters I love for her own agenda. God, I hate them all!!!

[Anuna]

From the season 4 companion book:
"For various reasons, the production found it necessary to write out the character of Dr Elizabeth Weir, played by Torri Higginson. The decision had actually been made at the conclusion of season three. The writers had always found weir a difficult character to intergrate into the Atlantis enviroment, with all its inherent jeopardy- as a civilian diplomat with no military backround, Weir's function as part of the Pegasus Project was difficult to flesh out.Finding reasons to take her offworld and into the heart of the story could easily feel contrived. Yet having her be the character that stayed in the city watching the teams come and go did not make for a fullfilling role, either for the writers or Higgenson. Eventually the producers felt the only solution was to replace the character. "

And just WHAT the frak was Woolsey? Retired military general?! For frak's sake. They wanter Amanda in and Torri out.

[gateraid]

I love books! I'd never buy an e-book reader, it's just not the same. Plus books are really decorative and isolate the walls well *g*




Does this mean we'll get to read it soon?




I would have said that they keep shtum about it entirely, but what we got is not much more informative. Some set phrases and blabla.


The funny thing is I used to be a Sam fan in early SG1 seasons. I also used to be a big Sam/Jack shipper. They screwed up Sam in the later seasons and messed up Sam/Jack by endless non-delivery, even though they had long passed the point of no return.

That ship really pissed me off. Not that I would've minded if they'd gotten together, just that every time they had a scene, they played on the ship. Year after year after year....by the time that deleted scene in Trio came out, I found it so implausible. They'd have had to be sleeping together for years to justify that (confirming all ship that people see, canon or not) or have to have some serious issues with loving people they couldn't have.

And by replacing the character they killed SGA eventually.
Carter and Woolsey didn't add anything to the story, because they were both written as sort-of-Weir, so they did a disservice to both of them. Carter (the hero of Sg1) was reduced to nothing and Woolsey was so out of place it seemed ridiculous.
What a terrible mistake they did by eliminating Elizabeth, just because they didn't know HOW to write her! I'm still mad at them!
They didn't want to have Weir as Atlantis leader anymore? Fine, use Adrift/Lifeline as a way to change things. I actually liked those episodes, and after leaving Weir on the Replicator planet there were hundreds of solutions to get her back and reasons to change her position when back to Atlantis.
The probable conflicts with Carter as the new leader would have been really interesting to watch, but the writers were not up to the job.
And now they chose another incompetent writer for the books, who's going to kill everything good in the characters I love for her own agenda. God, I hate them all!!!

Yep, there were plenty of other options. I think it just came down to this one (getting rid of TH/EW) being the easiest one.

And just WHAT the frak was Woolsey? Retired military general?! For frak's sake. They wanter Amanda in and Torri out.

Apparently it's more believable for Woolsey to pack heat. Or be used as the comic relief (although Weir's "You Wanna Build A Windmill" line remains one of the funniest SGA lines of all time).

It's funny, I always thought Weir had the capacity to be 'colder' than either Woolsey or Carter, and made some tougher moral decisions. And yet at the same time, could also have a lot more compassion. That's called depth people

[Fionnait]

That ship really pissed me off. Not that I would've minded if they'd gotten together, just that every time they had a scene, they played on the ship. Year after year after year....by the time that deleted scene in Trio came out, I found it so implausible. They'd have had to be sleeping together for years to justify that (confirming all ship that people see, canon or not) or have to have some serious issues with loving people they couldn't have.

Exactly, it would have been much less annoying if it had been resolved and taken a place in the background. Now I had to look up that deleted scene and *lol* He can't even say it without difficulty! Confirm that, uhm, Carter was having an aff... I mean, uhm, in a relationship with O'Neill *blush* Hilarious!

[Anuna]

That ship really pissed me off. Not that I would've minded if they'd gotten together, just that every time they had a scene, they played on the ship. Year after year after year....by the time that deleted scene in Trio came out, I found it so implausible. They'd have had to be sleeping together for years to justify that (confirming all ship that people see, canon or not) or have to have some serious issues with loving people they couldn't have.



Yep, there were plenty of other options. I think it just came down to this one (getting rid of TH/EW) being the easiest one.



Apparently it's more believable for Woolsey to pack heat. Or be used as the comic relief (although Weir's "You Wanna Build A Windmill" line remains one of the funniest SGA lines of all time).

It's funny, I always thought Weir had the capacity to be 'colder' than either Woolsey or Carter, and made some tougher moral decisions. And yet at the same time, could also have a lot more compassion. That's called depth people

Geez, I forgot. Woosley is a male. Thatd efinitely makes him tougher. Riiiight. No offense, gateraid, since this isn't directed at you. But to PTB, military obviously trumps civilian, no matter how badass that civilian can be (Siege 2 anyone? Elizabeth singlehandedly talked the Genii into lending them their bombs, while being blindfolded and tied to a chair and Torri played THAT scene so well it still gives me chills). I don't remember any other female character on Stargate, save the Goa'ulds with their hand weapons, being so badass.

As for comic relief, that is really a cheap excuse. Torri could have played it ALL. Frakers.

Now, on a happier note my evil fic is almost done and here is a song that reminds me of sparky.

[Anuna]

Exactly, it would have been much less annoying if it had been resolved and taken a place in the background. Now I had to look up that deleted scene and *lol* He can't even say it without difficulty! Confirm that, uhm, Carter was having an aff... I mean, uhm, in a relationship with O'Neill *blush* Hilarious!

Sam/Jack is the most boring ship of all time. And that is entirely PTB's fault. Make it or break it, for heaven's sake. I'm hearing they're doing hints even in SGU. FAIL.

[Fionnait]

Sam/Jack is the most boring ship of all time. And that is entirely PTB's fault. Make it or break it, for heaven's sake. I'm hearing they're doing hints even in SGU. FAIL.

God, please, no more hints! Have mercy!
(Although, having sex while the Stones are playing may be worse. May!)