Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Anuna]

@SK - I remember that fic being somewhere in "Wraithbait" archive. And funnily it was one of the first Sparky fics I've ever read. And loved it too. If I find, I link you

I think you summed up John's situation and backstory perfectly. It makes me think how utterly unfair it is to plan your child's future and rob him or her off the opportunity to create the life they themselves wanted. I know that many among us love the battered, broken John who has tons and tons of issues (and he does) - but when you look at the larger picture? John is a guy who didn't allow his big, wealthy family and his powerful father dictate his fate. Instead he took the matters into his own hands and said, I'm doing it my way. IMO that's pretty strong. A weakling can't do that. (which makes me wanna grind my teeth when I see him characterized as a sore looser, an alcoholoc or utterly lost guy who can't handle his own sexuality and intimacy issues. I love me some angst as much as the next person, but really? Do we all need to break this guy into pieces to make a point?)

[Southern Red]

Now you confused me. IMO, John is a kind of guy who likes to help, but doesn't want to make a show out of it. If he could do it without his father knowing, I don't see it as OOC for him. Maybe it's something he did in more mature age, or something he did inspired by guilt (because we know he has truckloads of guilt).

As for making John a poor rich kid who didn't fit in ... I'd say he didn't want to fit in, and there had to be more of his inner rebel than anything else to it. I don't think John's father is generally a bad guy, but he and his older son were at odds for some reason. I wonder why.

Okay, now you've confused me. I don't think I said John would be showy or wouldn't help anyone. Maybe I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was that if John had been from a military family with a hero dad, I think that would have explained why he was so driven to go beyond duty to put himself on the line. In other words he would have been trying to make his father proud but having had the idea all his life that he may never be able to live up to the legend, he might have felt that no matter what he did he would never be as great as his dad. Whew! Did I make it worse?

I had no trouble believing that John and his father were at odds. A lot of powerful men expect their sons to follow in their footsteps and don't react well to rebellion. But if it's true that John went to Stanford instead of Harvard as a form of rebellion, then his dad was definitely one of the hardheaded ones. LOL

I'll have you know, I now have REM's 'It's the End of the World As We Know It' running through my head because of that.



I remember reading that fic! And for the life of me, I don't remember who wrote it. Got a link?



Yeah, it certainly looked to me at times like Joe was playing Sheppard as more of a military brat who was always in his father the war hero's shadow. There were definitely parts of that background that I prefer better than the 'poor little rich boy' story we ended up with.

Yay, beer!



And that's quite possible, as well.



There did seem to be hints in Outcast that John didn't follow the 'plan' his father had for him, ie. going to the big Ivy League university, taking over the family business, etc. It looked to me like Patrick Sheppard had the expectation that John, as eldest son, was intended to be the 'heir' of the Sheppard dynasty, while David, as the younger son, was the 'spare' and would've had more freedom to follow his own path; I definitely got the impression that David had some resentment towards John, not just for John 'abandoning' the family, but also that David was left holding the bag and had to let go of what he might have wanted in order to take the reins when their father fell ill.

And then there's the unresolved issue of what happened to his mother. If we go by what Mallozzi hinted at with that cut line from Remnants, it sounds as though something happened to her that John blamed himself for. Though whether or not it was anything that John really had any control over is unknown, maybe her death also contributed to the split between Patrick and John.

I fully understand David's resentment. And then it turns out Dad had forgiven John and wanted to see him. John was partially at fault there. Understandable how he acted but stubbornness taken to the extreme on both their parts I think. I liked the way Outcast ended though. David seemed like a good enough sort. After all, he hadn't seen his brother in years and had no idea even of whether he would want to waltz in and take over after Dave did all the work.

[Southern Red]

@SK - I remember that fic being somewhere in "Wraithbait" archive. And funnily it was one of the first Sparky fics I've ever read. And loved it too. If I find, I link you

I think you summed up John's situation and backstory perfectly. It makes me think how utterly unfair it is to plan your child's future and rob him or her off the opportunity to create the life they themselves wanted. I know that many among us love the battered, broken John who has tons and tons of issues (and he does) - but when you look at the larger picture? John is a guy who didn't allow his big, wealthy family and his powerful father dictate his fate. Instead he took the matters into his own hands and said, I'm doing it my way. IMO that's pretty strong. A weakling can't do that. (which makes me wanna grind my teeth when I see him characterized as a sore looser, an alcoholoc or utterly lost guy who can't handle his own sexuality and intimacy issues. I love me some angst as much as the next person, but really? Do we all need to break this guy into pieces to make a point?)

Not all of us, just those who ignore canon. Gotta go, I'm making beef stroganoff.

[gateraid]

Yeah, you would have thought that they'd use the obvious difference between his way of thinking and his family's. But I got the feeling that making John a trust fund baby was a sly dig at JF since he said he never would have thought John was from a rich family. I really wish I knew what he wanted John's background to be. Early on they said John's father was a famous military guy but along the way they dropped that idea. I liked the idea of John thinking he could never be the hero his father was to explain some of the things he did. This poor little rich boy thing didn't fit very well. And Joe is certainly not typical in that respect either. Unless he needs to order a truck load of beer that is. LOL

I wouldn't have picked John to be from a rich family, mostly because on tv, rich guys are portrayed as arrogant and out of touch with the real world.

While I didn't realise John's dad was military too (I really should rewatch Outcast), that makes a bit more sense to me as to why John joined. His attitude is more laid back than you'd really expect from someone who signed up for a career.

Now you confused me. IMO, John is a kind of guy who likes to help, but doesn't want to make a show out of it. If he could do it without his father knowing, I don't see it as OOC for him. Maybe it's something he did in more mature age, or something he did inspired by guilt (because we know he has truckloads of guilt).

As for making John a poor rich kid who didn't fit in ... I'd say he didn't want to fit in, and there had to be more of his inner rebel than anything else to it. I don't think John's father is generally a bad guy, but he and his older son were at odds for some reason. I wonder why.

Guys don't always get on with their dads. Sometimes it can be for trivial things. Sometimes it's because the dad will always see the child as 'the kid'. I think we'll all wonder why. Thank goodness they never tried to explain it on the show.

@SK - I remember that fic being somewhere in "Wraithbait" archive. And funnily it was one of the first Sparky fics I've ever read. And loved it too. If I find, I link you

I think you summed up John's situation and backstory perfectly. It makes me think how utterly unfair it is to plan your child's future and rob him or her off the opportunity to create the life they themselves wanted. I know that many among us love the battered, broken John who has tons and tons of issues (and he does) - but when you look at the larger picture? John is a guy who didn't allow his big, wealthy family and his powerful father dictate his fate. Instead he took the matters into his own hands and said, I'm doing it my way. IMO that's pretty strong. A weakling can't do that. (which makes me wanna grind my teeth when I see him characterized as a sore looser, an alcoholoc or utterly lost guy who can't handle his own sexuality and intimacy issues. I love me some angst as much as the next person, but really? Do we all need to break this guy into pieces to make a point?)

I take it you won't be purchasing the upcoming MGM approved novel?

[Anuna]

I take it you won't be purchasing the upcoming MGM approved novel?

*fakes the Southern accent*

There's crap out there that's more worth my money than bad fanfiction pretending to be a book. *rolls eyes*

*uses the accademic accent*

Also, it would be most sueful if thirving young authors chose to carefully read complete symptomatology of post traumatic stress disorder, along with a lengthy read on the most common causes of it. It's also useful to remmeber that genetics plays a considerable part in developing and not developing PTSD. Since we know John has a pretty strong ATA gene, it is definitely not unwise to consider if and how the ATA gene could affect John's reactions to highly stressful and traumatic situations.

Also, watching the show and being in touch with actual show canon would be very very useful for said thriving authors.

Pardon my misspelling.

[Scary Kitty]

@SK - I remember that fic being somewhere in "Wraithbait" archive. And funnily it was one of the first Sparky fics I've ever read. And loved it too. If I find, I link you

I think you summed up John's situation and backstory perfectly. It makes me think how utterly unfair it is to plan your child's future and rob him or her off the opportunity to create the life they themselves wanted. I know that many among us love the battered, broken John who has tons and tons of issues (and he does) - but when you look at the larger picture? John is a guy who didn't allow his big, wealthy family and his powerful father dictate his fate. Instead he took the matters into his own hands and said, I'm doing it my way. IMO that's pretty strong. A weakling can't do that. (which makes me wanna grind my teeth when I see him characterized as a sore looser, an alcoholoc or utterly lost guy who can't handle his own sexuality and intimacy issues. I love me some angst as much as the next person, but really? Do we all need to break this guy into pieces to make a point?)

No kidding. Anyone who honestly thinks that he's got such problems has got some problems of their own.

I fully understand David's resentment. And then it turns out Dad had forgiven John and wanted to see him. John was partially at fault there. Understandable how he acted but stubbornness taken to the extreme on both their parts I think. I liked the way Outcast ended though. David seemed like a good enough sort. After all, he hadn't seen his brother in years and had no idea even of whether he would want to waltz in and take over after Dave did all the work.

Like father, like son. I wish we could've seen a little more of that developed. Makes me wish we could do something for our Season 6 back on Earth to see a little more of John and David trying to be brothers again.

I wouldn't have picked John to be from a rich family, mostly because on tv, rich guys are portrayed as arrogant and out of touch with the real world.

While I didn't realise John's dad was military too (I really should rewatch Outcast), that makes a bit more sense to me as to why John joined. His attitude is more laid back than you'd really expect from someone who signed up for a career.

John's father was not military. Originally, based on character profiles that were posted on the old MGM and SciFi (back when it was still SciFi) websites, it seems that someone had planned for Sheppard's father to be military ("a respected Cold War colonel" was the phrase that was used, I think). However, those plans apparently changed when they got to Outcast, and they made Patrick Sheppard a "utilities mogul" (according to the newspaper headline in Eva's office); basically, he was in the energy business.

I take it you won't be purchasing the upcoming MGM approved novel?

*snorts* I can think of better things to spend my money on than that waste of paper and ink.

*fakes the Southern accent*

There's crap out there that's more worth my money than bad fanfiction pretending to be a book. *rolls eyes*

*uses the accademic accent*

Also, it would be most sueful if thirving young authors chose to carefully read complete symptomatology of post traumatic stress disorder, along with a lengthy read on the most common causes of it. It's also useful to remmeber that genetics plays a considerable part in developing and not developing PTSD. Since we know John has a pretty strong ATA gene, it is definitely not unwise to consider if and how the ATA gene could affect John's reactions to highly stressful and traumatic situations.

Also, watching the show and being in touch with actual show canon would be very very useful for said thriving authors.

Pardon my misspelling.

Who says these authors are thriving? I mean, if they can't even spend the time to properly research the subjects they're writing about, can't even bother consulting a book on psychology (or better yet, talking to a real psychologist with a damn PhD who can correct their misunderstanding of PTSD), then they're clearly not going to survive long in the real world.

[Anuna]

Oy, a psychologist doesn't need a PhD to know these things about PTSD. A plain psychology degree would suffice. On thirving part, I was clearly being ironic. Or is that sarcastic? I often confuse the two. Maybe it would be better to call these authors, ahem, motivated.

[gateraid]

*fakes the Southern accent*

There's crap out there that's more worth my money than bad fanfiction pretending to be a book. *rolls eyes*

*uses the accademic accent*

Also, it would be most sueful if thirving young authors chose to carefully read complete symptomatology of post traumatic stress disorder, along with a lengthy read on the most common causes of it. It's also useful to remmeber that genetics plays a considerable part in developing and not developing PTSD. Since we know John has a pretty strong ATA gene, it is definitely not unwise to consider if and how the ATA gene could affect John's reactions to highly stressful and traumatic situations.

Also, watching the show and being in touch with actual show canon would be very very useful for said thriving authors.

Pardon my misspelling.

You're putting a lot of faith in a one gene, one among many. ITA John doesn't have PTSD - in fact I wouldn't say he's prone to depression AT ALL, let alone that particular type - but I wouldn't put that down to having the ATA gene. I'm sure some of the Ancients had that - our physiology is supposed to be based on theirs.

The people that say John had PTSD are using it as an excuse to justify other actions they may want him to perform. I see no evidence of it in the show proper. Sure, they can make the arguement that he's carrying a big burden, but that'd be true of anybody in a position of responsibility like that.

No kidding. Anyone who honestly thinks that he's got such problems has got some problems of their own.



Like father, like son. I wish we could've seen a little more of that developed. Makes me wish we could do something for our Season 6 back on Earth to see a little more of John and David trying to be brothers again.



John's father was not military. Originally, based on character profiles that were posted on the old MGM and SciFi (back when it was still SciFi) websites, it seems that someone had planned for Sheppard's father to be military ("a respected Cold War colonel" was the phrase that was used, I think). However, those plans apparently changed when they got to Outcast, and they made Patrick Sheppard a "utilities mogul" (according to the newspaper headline in Eva's office); basically, he was in the energy business.

*vaguely remembers that*

That's another flub on TPTW's part. Do they expect everyone to read that? I generally wouldn't. I wonder what made them change that (other than the need for that one ep)? Then again, it's not like they mentioned it on the show, so I guess they were free to do what they wanted *shrugs*

*snorts* I can think of better things to spend my money on than that waste of paper and ink.

I can't think of anything nice, or even witty, to say about it

Who says these authors are thriving? I mean, if they can't even spend the time to properly research the subjects they're writing about, can't even bother consulting a book on psychology (or better yet, talking to a real psychologist with a damn PhD who can correct their misunderstanding of PTSD), then they're clearly not going to survive long in the real world.

It's fanfiction gone MAD. MAD, I tell you, MAD

[Anuna]

Hey - how do we know ATA is just one single gene? How do we know it's not a group of genes?

Besides, I said it may affect his.... gah it's too late here to sound smart. Lol. But if he can fly spaceships thanks to one gene/group of genes....

[Scary Kitty]

Oy, a psychologist doesn't need a PhD to know these things about PTSD. A plain psychology degree would suffice. On thirving part, I was clearly being ironic. Or is that sarcastic? I often confuse the two. Maybe it would be better to call these authors, ahem, motivated.

True, dat. Hell, I took a class in psychology back in high school and I retained enough of what I learned there to know that John sure as hell doesn't have PTSD.

Ironic sarcasm, I'd say.

You're putting a lot of faith in a one gene, one among many. ITA John doesn't have PTSD - in fact I wouldn't say he's prone to depression AT ALL, let alone that particular type - but I wouldn't put that down to having the ATA gene. I'm sure some of the Ancients had that - our physiology is supposed to be based on theirs.

Well, I think John could be prone to depression... just look at how Vegas!John turned out. Of course, one also has to take the differences in his circumstances into account. The John of the canon!verse hasn't been pushed that far.

The people that say John had PTSD are using it as an excuse to justify other actions they may want him to perform. I see no evidence of it in the show proper. Sure, they can make the arguement that he's carrying a big burden, but that'd be true of anybody in a position of responsibility like that.

BINGO! It's sloppy thinking on their part that's clearly fueled by the desire to push an agenda that most of the fan community does not agree with.

And that's an excellent point about anybody in a position of responsibility like that carrying a similar "big burden." So by that definition, they'd have no choice but to accept that Weir, Carter, and Woolsey also have PTSD. Ain't logic grand?

*vaguely remembers that*

That's another flub on TPTW's part. Do they expect everyone to read that? I generally wouldn't. I wonder what made them change that (other than the need for that one ep)? Then again, it's not like they mentioned it on the show, so I guess they were free to do what they wanted *shrugs*

*snickers* I could say something witty about what TPTW expected the audience to do, but it'd get modded, so I won't. But yeah, they were certainly free to do what they wanted, including ignoring facts they'd established in previous episodes.

I can't think of anything nice, or even witty, to say about it

Speaking of witty...

It's fanfiction gone MAD. MAD, I tell you, MAD

It's a mad, mad world.

[gateraid]

Hey - how do we know ATA is just one single gene? How do we know it's not a group of genes?

Besides, I said it may affect his.... gah it's too late here to sound smart. Lol. But if he can fly spaceships thanks to one gene/group of genes....

Hey - I never said I was right. That was all IMO of course.

I was meaning more along the lines of it being a genetic marker than anything else. The Ancients didn't just have the gene (it's hard to say that from SGA, but there is more cannon from SG1), their bodies had actually evolved. Hardly surprising, giving that TaoNas was at least one million years old BEFORE they left. And I seem to recall in the pilot, the caption when Atlantis is on Earth is 'several million years ago'.

With the little that they explored the ATA gene in SGA, it appears that it isn't much more than a glorified retinal scan. The ability to use the technology comes more from the users mental link. I'd think after 10,000yrs that there wouldn't be a huge strength variance in the ATA gene itself between expedition members

True, dat. Hell, I took a class in psychology back in high school and I retained enough of what I learned there to know that John sure as hell doesn't have PTSD.

Ironic sarcasm, I'd say.



Well, I think John could be prone to depression... just look at how Vegas!John turned out. Of course, one also has to take the differences in his circumstances into account. The John of the canon!verse hasn't been pushed that far.

Prone to, for sure, but I don't see him as being any more prone to it that the average Joe

BINGO! It's sloppy thinking on their part that's clearly fueled by the desire to push an agenda that most of the fan community does not agree with.

I read one of those fanfics. The line that stuck with me was Teyla commenting amount John's sexuality. Were we watching the same show?

And that's an excellent point about anybody in a position of responsibility like that carrying a similar "big burden." So by that definition, they'd have no choice but to accept that Weir, Carter, and Woolsey also have PTSD. Ain't logic grand?

I'd actually put Carter ahead of Shep in terms of depression (not necessarily PTSD). If you watch her over the years, she lacks confidence, gets down in the dumps fairly easily, won't stick up for herself, and pines for someone that she knows she isn't allowed to have (a fatalist approach to romance if there ever were one) and lets that relationship destroy the other ones she's had. If you add the stuff she's had to deal with at work - being tortured numerous times, hosting another consciousness more than once, killing people, the alternate realities.....

It's a mad, mad world.

Welcome to my parlour, m'lady

[Scary Kitty]

Hey - I never said I was right. That was all IMO of course.

I was meaning more along the lines of it being a genetic marker than anything else. The Ancients didn't just have the gene (it's hard to say that from SGA, but there is more cannon from SG1), their bodies had actually evolved. Hardly surprising, giving that TaoNas was at least one million years old BEFORE they left. And I seem to recall in the pilot, the caption when Atlantis is on Earth is 'several million years ago'.

With the little that they explored the ATA gene in SGA, it appears that it isn't much more than a glorified retinal scan. The ability to use the technology comes more from the users mental link. I'd think after 10,000yrs that there wouldn't be a huge strength variance in the ATA gene itself between expedition members

It definitely appears to be a two-part system. I keep thinking back to what Weir told O'Neill in Rising about others on the Antarctica research team who had the gene and could make the technology work, but they had to really concentrate, whereas Sheppard could just do it instinctively.

I read one of those fanfics. The line that stuck with me was Teyla commenting amount John's sexuality. Were we watching the same show?

*shudders*

I'd actually put Carter ahead of Shep in terms of depression (not necessarily PTSD). If you watch her over the years, she lacks confidence, gets down in the dumps fairly easily, won't stick up for herself, and pines for someone that she knows she isn't allowed to have (a fatalist approach to romance if there ever were one) and lets that relationship destroy the other ones she's had. If you add the stuff she's had to deal with at work - being tortured numerous times, hosting another consciousness more than once, killing people, the alternate realities.....

Another excellent point. Though the Carter fans may want to burn you at the stake for even suggesting it.

Welcome to my parlour, m'lady

*snickers and raises a glass*

[KrisRussel]

Gosh, you guys got busy
I like it

So, I guess I shouldn't be buying the new novel then? I didn't even know a new one was being released.

[Scary Kitty]

Gosh, you guys got busy
I like it

So do we.

So, I guess I shouldn't be buying the new novel then? I didn't even know a new one was being released.

Consider yourself lucky you didn't know.

[Southern Red]

*fakes the Southern accent*

There's crap out there that's more worth my money than bad fanfiction pretending to be a book. *rolls eyes*

*uses the accademic accent*

Also, it would be most sueful if thirving young authors chose to carefully read complete symptomatology of post traumatic stress disorder, along with a lengthy read on the most common causes of it. It's also useful to remmeber that genetics plays a considerable part in developing and not developing PTSD. Since we know John has a pretty strong ATA gene, it is definitely not unwise to consider if and how the ATA gene could affect John's reactions to highly stressful and traumatic situations.

Also, watching the show and being in touch with actual show canon would be very very useful for said thriving authors.

Pardon my misspelling.

I love it when you get all learny.

Oy, a psychologist doesn't need a PhD to know these things about PTSD. A plain psychology degree would suffice. On thirving part, I was clearly being ironic. Or is that sarcastic? I often confuse the two. Maybe it would be better to call these authors, ahem, motivated.

If by motivated you mean prejudiced, then yeah. Won't it be amusing when all of fandom learns the big plan?

Oh, and I wanted to add a few words on John and depression. I think there is canon evidence for John having, for lack of a knowledgeable term, situational depression. Maybe Anuna has the correct diagnosis, but in Epiphany, Conversion and Doppelganger he showed signs of withdrawal and, if not a deep depression, at least a brief mood crisis. In Epiphany he even explained to Teer that he hadn't come out of his room for a long time due to depression. So there is evidence for that, but that is a far cry from PTSD. I think that is a term that the general public throws around in ignorance a lot these days when in actuality it's not all that common and is quite severe.

This site has a list of symptoms that in no way relate to John. In fact I think we could take each one and give examples of how John clearly shows that he doesn't have it. So any writer who is serious about characterizing him according to canon would in no way think he exhibits any of those in a serious way. But if you have an agenda to fulfill, you might twist canon to write him OOC. We don't know how far the new books will go in that direction but if a certain author keeps the characterization of John she uses in her fanfic, it's going to be disastrous.