Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Falcon Horus]

The very finest quality of Shiny!

No power in the verse can stop us! -> That kind of shiny!

[Scary Kitty]

No power in the verse can stop us! -> That kind of shiny!

Sparky = The Force.

[Killdeer]

Hello? Anyone here? *voice echoes*

Hmm.

Well, I had a couple of thoughts that I'll just toss in here.

1) I was thinking the other day about the Sateda scene on the Daedalus between John and Teyla, and remembering that when I first watched that episode, my un-enlightened self still thought they were trying to play up something between Ronon and Teyla. I completely read that scene as Ronon/Teyla shippy, with Teyla fearful for Ronon and John trying to comfort her. Anyway, getting to the point. I remembered how John had to drag Teyla away from Ronon sacrificing himself in the beginning, and it just hit me the startling parallel between that scene and Ronon dragging John away from Elizabeth sacrificing herself in Lifeline. I just thought that was remarkable.

2) Your talk about plots made me think about a couple of things I've had in my mind for a while. One of them popped into my head after hearing some spoilers for GitM. I've been waiting for someone to write the story where Elizabeth gets into Atlantis, but somehow she can only communicate with John, and how over the years she becomes the voice of Atlantis, but usually only John can really see or hear her - the others rarely. *shrugs* Maybe someone's written that - I don't know. It's just kind of a thought I've had, rather undeveloped.

[M-CharmedAlantian]

HAPPY LATE BIRTHDAY JOE FLANNIGAN, FALCON HORUS, AND EVERYBODY ELSE who's birthday was yesterday Btw, Scary Kitty I may not be able to participate in the post-a-thon this Saturday because I misplaced the disc to season 2 AGAIN It just depends when I maybe able to find it, BUT I have ALOT of homework and I have 2 projects due this week and one of those projects is due tommorow and I feel my head is about explode
Anyway if I can't find that disc I may have another alternate solution but I have to ask my dad for another copy and that means I'm going to owe him BIG time. My dad is sooo cool and he's just the best Dad I could ever have
Btw I'm looking forward to reading those alternate S4/5 fanfics So I'll see you guys on Saturday.

[Irish Eyes]

I don't think he has to plot. It just comes naturally. I remember an interview which can be found here in which he says he doesn't like to be censored in interviews. That was way back in '06 and some of his comments are veeeerrry interesting considering what happened afterward.

I'd love to know what he thinks of season 5.

Hello? Anyone here? *voice echoes*

Hmm.

Well, I had a couple of thoughts that I'll just toss in here.

1) I was thinking the other day about the Sateda scene on the Daedalus between John and Teyla, and remembering that when I first watched that episode, my un-enlightened self still thought they were trying to play up something between Ronon and Teyla. I completely read that scene as Ronon/Teyla shippy, with Teyla fearful for Ronon and John trying to comfort her. Anyway, getting to the point. I remembered how John had to drag Teyla away from Ronon sacrificing himself in the beginning, and it just hit me the startling parallel between that scene and Ronon dragging John away from Elizabeth sacrificing herself in Lifeline. I just thought that was remarkable.

2) Your talk about plots made me think about a couple of things I've had in my mind for a while. One of them popped into my head after hearing some spoilers for GitM. I've been waiting for someone to write the story where Elizabeth gets into Atlantis, but somehow she can only communicate with John, and how over the years she becomes the voice of Atlantis, but usually only John can really see or hear her - the others rarely. *shrugs* Maybe someone's written that - I don't know. It's just kind of a thought I've had, rather undeveloped.

Yeah, it tends to get quiet in here around this time. We need to do something about that...

1) That is a really good catch. I never thought about it that way. And really, in the last two seasons,

Spoiler:

John and Ronon have bonded much more. Must have been because both of their women were unavailable.

2) I haven't seen a fic like that, but I'm very far behind on reading my Sparky fics. Woe. However, I have seen a story where John is killed and somehow he ends up in the Atlantis system and only Elizabeth can hear him. It's a really good story and for some reason I even remember the last line. I'll see if I can find it, but knowing the bunch on this thread, someone will know exactly where it is.

[Scary Kitty]

Hello? Anyone here? *voice echoes*

Hmm.

Well, I had a couple of thoughts that I'll just toss in here.

1) I was thinking the other day about the Sateda scene on the Daedalus between John and Teyla, and remembering that when I first watched that episode, my un-enlightened self still thought they were trying to play up something between Ronon and Teyla. I completely read that scene as Ronon/Teyla shippy, with Teyla fearful for Ronon and John trying to comfort her. Anyway, getting to the point. I remembered how John had to drag Teyla away from Ronon sacrificing himself in the beginning, and it just hit me the startling parallel between that scene and Ronon dragging John away from Elizabeth sacrificing herself in Lifeline. I just thought that was remarkable.

I saw that scene in Sateda the same way you did. And that's a great catch on the parallel with John dragging Teyla away and Ronon dragging John away.

2) Your talk about plots made me think about a couple of things I've had in my mind for a while. One of them popped into my head after hearing some spoilers for GitM. I've been waiting for someone to write the story where Elizabeth gets into Atlantis, but somehow she can only communicate with John, and how over the years she becomes the voice of Atlantis, but usually only John can really see or hear her - the others rarely. *shrugs* Maybe someone's written that - I don't know. It's just kind of a thought I've had, rather undeveloped.

As it happens, someone here has been toying with such an idea; I will say no more at this time for fic spoiler reasons.

I'd love to know what he thinks of season 5.

Whatever it is, it can't be good... *snickers*

Yeah, it tends to get quiet in here around this time. We need to do something about that...

The East Coasters are probably heading for bed, if not already asleep, and it's early morning in Europe, so those there are just getting up. So it's just the Midwestern Posse and the West Coast Crew on watch.

1) That is a really good catch. I never thought about it that way. And really, in the last two seasons,

Spoiler:

John and Ronon have bonded much more. Must have been because both of their women were unavailable.

Hee!

2) I haven't seen a fic like that, but I'm very far behind on reading my Sparky fics. Woe. However, I have seen a story where John is killed and somehow he ends up in the Atlantis system and only Elizabeth can hear him. It's a really good story and for some reason I even remember the last line. I'll see if I can find it, but knowing the bunch on this thread, someone will know exactly where it is.

Hmm, the first fic I thought of was Even in the Distance by Reyclou, but it doesn't quite fit the profile. I know I've seen another fic with that general premise, so I'll keep looking.

[Scary Kitty]

HAPPY LATE BIRTHDAY JOE FLANNIGAN, FALCON HORUS, AND EVERYBODY ELSE who's birthday was yesterday Btw, Scary Kitty I may not be able to participate in the post-a-thon this Saturday because I misplaced the disc to season 2 AGAIN It just depends when I maybe able to find it, BUT I have ALOT of homework and I have 2 projects due this week and one of those projects is due tommorow and I feel my head is about explode
Anyway if I can't find that disc I may have another alternate solution but I have to ask my dad for another copy and that means I'm going to owe him BIG time. My dad is sooo cool and he's just the best Dad I could ever have
Btw I'm looking forward to reading those alternate S4/5 fanfics So I'll see you guys on Saturday.

One way or another, we'll be here! Saturday, 2pm Pacific Time, we'll be watching Intruder and Runner!

[gateraid]

Re the attitude. I think it all has to do with TPTW attitude and their double standards, which is why I don't accept Atlantis Command, as gateraid calls is, as the real Atlantis. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, to treat one of your friends and co workers as more important. Shouldn't the leader be most important person?

Hm, do I believe GitM Weir was the real one? I think she was, and I can even justify her OOCish behavior. She was alone, with nobody but eight replicators who wanted to snatch themselves out from Oberoth's clutches. They were her only chance to survive in some way, and part of her probably thought she owned them that one huge favor. Other part of her is a giver of second chances; if she wasn't that kind of person, who believes there's some good in everyone (remeber how she treated Niam?) then John's butt would still be freezing in Antarctica.

Atlantis Command is a reference to Stargate Command/s9-10 of SG1. She (Franibeth) thought she was the real one, so I guess that's all that matters. Who knows how a person changes when you alter their support system?

I think GITM proves that he would have completely accepted 'a copy'. My take on TMC and GITM is that both versions weren't the 'real' Elizabeth.

Spoiler:

In both episodes, we're presented with a 'copy', even though the mind of the clone was the same and Franibeth was the mind of Elizabeth, just in a different body. In either case, you don't get the 'real' Elizabeth as she was. If you go by the story she tells, she's gone. Her body was assimilated. But her mind, heart and soul were saved, and that is the essence of who she was.

In TMC, I agree with the idea that she, knowing she was a clone, didn't feel equal to being the Elizabeth of Atlantis--she felt she was a copy. And John, though I think he would have been content to keep her, respected her wishes. In part because he was hurt 'his' Elizabeth was gone; perhaps in part because that's what John always did with regards to Elizabeth. After THZ, I think he pretty much always respected her judgment and wishes--which is why he's was willing to sacrifice her in Adrift and respect her sacrificial wishes in TMC.

In GITM, however, her greatest wish initially is just to be at home. John is all for that, so even in a 'human replicator' form, which is what she would have become, he wanted her to stay. She wasn't 'real' but we see how much he's fighting to keep any semblance of her after he accepts she's Elizabeth. He also accepts the Franibeth version of her more quickly and with more passion than anyone else on Atlantis. It didn't matter to him that the plan was making an organic replicator form version of her; he just wanted her back--him talking to Woolsey about letting her stay confirms that.

When she then determines the replicators she brought with her are no longer safe, she again makes the choice to protect Atlantis first, herself second. John, again, is forced to accept her choices and does because he does respect her and cares about her. Do I think, had she changed her mind, that he would have accepted her? In a heartbeat. I don't think there's any question that even as she walks through the gate with Fran's face, that his heart is breaking.

Had the PTB been smart and let us have Elizabeth back, I think any form would have done for John.

Nail. Hit. Head.

This discussion has raised an interesting thought process for me, though--keeping away all the behind-the-scenes stuff (because we know the shoddier end of this argument is due to that), could you argue that John's actions in Adrift and Lifeline Lifeline are because he actually has two mantras instead of one?

1) Leave No Man Behind
2) Respect Elizabeth

Interestingly, I think the second rather well explains some of the reasons John makes the choices he makes. I think we see examples of him listening to her wishes and not arguing throughout seasons 2 and 3; maybe he sees her as being like him. His respect and admiration for her has elevated her to that unique level.

In Adrift, he knows her mind, we've already pretty much established that, which is why he's against turning on the nanites. But in Lifeline, he's presented with a nasty choice of the two mantras competing--and his respect for her decisions won out, he let her go trying not to think of the business end, trying.

HOWEVER--it meant he lost her. He's never been okay with that--hence the attitude of John throughout season 4 & 5, trying to be normal but unable to be. He tries to push her out of his head, saying he did the right thing, but he's really unable to think that. That mentality explains why he becomes so desperate when other members of his team are captured or killed.

People who've watched Season 5 can fill in the holes as to his behaviors and attitude there--does it hold true he's still be tortured by that notion?



Lucky you! I can't write fiction with my boss around, I feel WAAAAAAYYYYYY too guilty.

My fic's rough is done. I'm going to gloss it up and hopefully publish lunch my time.

To me, it's one of those times when a RL issue overshadows what is on screen. It seems incredibly OOC to me that John would accept leaving someone behind, even if it is their express wish. They're constantly trying to tell us what a great soldier he is, but make him forget one of the cornerstones of the military? Pffft. I can put it to the side coz I know the external reasons for it, but it doesn't make sense within the show. Period. I think they would have been far better served if 04x03 was a failed rescue attempt, rather than 'hey colonel, it's been ages since we left asuras. Rather than doing something at the time, i went and asked the IOA (who have a solid record of denying rescue missions) if we could do something. They said no, but now that we've wasted all this time, perhaps you could ask them' [/snark]

Yes yes yes, a thousand times yes! You said what I was thinking but couldn't get into words. *flails*

And S5 confirms even better than S4 just how tortured John is. In Remnants

Spoiler:

he conjures up Kolya to torture him. And JM even said a line got cut about him letting her "slip through his hands". That confirms his inner turmoil.

This is confirmed yet again in other episodes when he moves heaven and earth to save people. And it also supports the theory that Vegas John is our John turned inside out.

I like your 2 mantra theory. Proof that Elizabeth is the only one who will lead him to break mantra #1. John has come to epitomize the "leave no man behind" idea, but that rule is law in the military, especially the Marines. They don't even leave dead bodies on the field of battle. John is an honorable man so that rule worked for him but he has also been through a lot in his life that has left him with abandonment issues and issues from his father not respecting his wishes. I'm sure his treatment of Elizabeth comes partly from that. Plus he just gets her like no one else and vice versa as we saw in Common Ground.

Understanding her wishes and accepting them aren't the same thing. He would understand that she wouldn't want to risk any lives in a rescue attempt (or destroy any careers) but that doesn't mean no attempt at all is the right thing to do.

I don't see why anyone would have trouble accepting Franibeth as the original Elizabeth. (Because as far as we know, canon-wise, she is the original Elizabeth.) Except for maybe Ronon, which is understandable, but I'm sure he'll protect her as much as ever once he gets over himself. Because apart from physical differences, she is the same.

There's nothing differing her from Carson. Except TPTB like him slightly more. Though not much. Besides, they can only have time to mess up one loved character at a time because of he space McKeller and such is taking up ... And even then, most of the time Carson is sitting in the corner. Can't they just send him hope and then I won't have to watch any of s5. Haha.

But watch GitM, and everyone by the end (except Ronon aforementioned) treats her the same. Even Woolsey, who was given a nice ego stroke complimentary of Elizabeth.

But she's their leader, and it's important that your leader of anyone is not freeze-dried in space. If this was the glory days, Shep would get the rogue band of Teyla, Ronon, Rodney and Carson together and pull her out of space. And run away with her in the vast spaces of the PG before the IOA can kick their asses.

But no. The only good thing we get out of this, I'm afraid, is the way Joe plays things.

I think had Torri played Weir in s5, the distinction between Weir and Carson would be even less. I doubt they would have gone down

Spoiler:

the digital ascension path, rather just had Lifeline Weir's nanites activated

I've also considered Stockholm Syndrome as another factor in GitM Weir's behavior. She's had to live as a Replicator for over two years, identifies herself with them, and appears to be losing her sense of her original, human self; Sheppard angrily telling her that she wasn't the real Elizabeth, and then having to destroy Koracen, having to kill, in order to save Sheppard (and by extension, Atlantis) seemed to be a breakthrough in her mind, forcing her to see that change in her.

Entirely possible

Hello? Anyone here? *voice echoes*

Hmm.

Well, I had a couple of thoughts that I'll just toss in here.

1) I was thinking the other day about the Sateda scene on the Daedalus between John and Teyla, and remembering that when I first watched that episode, my un-enlightened self still thought they were trying to play up something between Ronon and Teyla. I completely read that scene as Ronon/Teyla shippy, with Teyla fearful for Ronon and John trying to comfort her. Anyway, getting to the point. I remembered how John had to drag Teyla away from Ronon sacrificing himself in the beginning, and it just hit me the startling parallel between that scene and Ronon dragging John away from Elizabeth sacrificing herself in Lifeline. I just thought that was remarkable.

Watch Eatg

[Irish Eyes]

The East Coasters are probably heading for bed, if not already asleep, and it's early morning in Europe, so those there are just getting up. So it's just the Midwestern Posse and the West Coast Crew on watch.

Hmm, the first fic I thought of was Even in the Distance by Reyclou, but it doesn't quite fit the profile. I know I've seen another fic with that general premise, so I'll keep looking.

I'm part of the MP. Sometimes I fall back into my old habit of lurking and forget to comment. I think there are more of us here than we realize so we'll just have to try to get the conversation going!

Nope, that's not the fic I'm thinking of. This is driving me nuts!

To me, it's one of those times when a RL issue overshadows what is on screen. It seems incredibly OOC to me that John would accept leaving someone behind, even if it is their express wish. They're constantly trying to tell us what a great soldier he is, but make him forget one of the cornerstones of the military? Pffft. I can put it to the side coz I know the external reasons for it, but it doesn't make sense within the show. Period. I think they would have been far better served if 04x03 was a failed rescue attempt, rather than 'hey colonel, it's been ages since we left asuras. Rather than doing something at the time, i went and asked the IOA (who have a solid record of denying rescue missions) if we could do something. They said no, but now that we've wasted all this time, perhaps you could ask them' [/snark]

Yes, yes, yes! *nods*

[Scary Kitty]

To me, it's one of those times when a RL issue overshadows what is on screen. It seems incredibly OOC to me that John would accept leaving someone behind, even if it is their express wish. They're constantly trying to tell us what a great soldier he is, but make him forget one of the cornerstones of the military? Pffft. I can put it to the side coz I know the external reasons for it, but it doesn't make sense within the show. Period. I think they would have been far better served if 04x03 was a failed rescue attempt, rather than 'hey colonel, it's been ages since we left asuras. Rather than doing something at the time, i went and asked the IOA (who have a solid record of denying rescue missions) if we could do something. They said no, but now that we've wasted all this time, perhaps you could ask them' [/snark]

Absolutely! It's infuriating to see Sheppard being written so stupidly, in a way that runs counter to everything we know about him. Though, I can't put it aside, both because of the behind-the-scenes idiocy that it's supposed to be covering up, and because it's just bad writing. Period. But then, we've known all along that TPTW can't put together a sensible storyline if it came up and hit them in the head.

Understanding her wishes and accepting them aren't the same thing. He would understand that she wouldn't want to risk any lives in a rescue attempt (or destroy any careers) but that doesn't mean no attempt at all is the right thing to do.

Indeed. 'Conversion' is a great example of this; Elizabeth knows it's crazy to make a second attempt to get the Iratus eggs to save Sheppard after they've already lost two men, and even crazier still to send Sheppard himself on the mission, but she does it anyway.

[Scary Kitty]

Nope, that's not the fic I'm thinking of. This is driving me nuts!

Hmm... the other one I'm thinking of (and still can't locate) was one in which I think John wasn't actually dead, just invisible or something; everyone thought Elizabeth was crazy for saying she was seeing John and I think Carson even pulled medical rank on her and removed her from command. Then when they discover the truth and John is saved, at the end they throw a big party to apologize to Elizabeth. But that still doesn't quite sound like the one you're looking for, either. Argh. This is driving me nuts, too!

[Anuna]

Hmm... the other one I'm thinking of (and still can't locate) was one in which I think John wasn't actually dead, just invisible or something; everyone thought Elizabeth was crazy for saying she was seeing John and I think Carson even pulled medical rank on her and removed her from command. Then when they discover the truth and John is saved, at the end they throw a big party to apologize to Elizabeth. But that still doesn't quite sound like the one you're looking for, either. Argh. This is driving me nuts, too!

Do you happen to have that fic? Oh and did Eri post that fic she promised?

[Irish Eyes]

Hmm... the other one I'm thinking of (and still can't locate) was one in which I think John wasn't actually dead, just invisible or something; everyone thought Elizabeth was crazy for saying she was seeing John and I think Carson even pulled medical rank on her and removed her from command. Then when they discover the truth and John is saved, at the end they throw a big party to apologize to Elizabeth. But that still doesn't quite sound like the one you're looking for, either. Argh. This is driving me nuts, too!

LOL - I have to give up for the night. Maybe by the time I get on tomorrow night someone will have found it.

In the one I'm thinking of John really does die, but somehow his spirit is still there in Atlantis because he can control things like the doors and she can hear him. The fic plays out over a number of years and he protects Elizabeth (and frustrates her too). The whole thing is bittersweet and I love how it ends. Argh is right!

[Scary Kitty]

Do you happen to have that fic? Oh and did Eri post that fic she promised?

Still haven't found it; I'm pretty sure I saw it on LJ, and I think it may also be either at Command Dynamics or Wraithbait... that's a helluva lot of fics to wade through, and it's about time for me to head off to bed and have yummy Sparky dreams.

Eri hasn't posted her story yet, I think she said there was going to be a slight delay in getting it out.

[Anuna]

LOL - I have to give up for the night. Maybe by the time I get on tomorrow night someone will have found it.

In the one I'm thinking of John really does die, but somehow his spirit is still there in Atlantis because he can control things like the doors and she can hear him. The fic plays out over a number of years and he protects Elizabeth (and frustrates her too). The whole thing is bittersweet and I love how it ends. Argh is right!

I read that one, I remeber that fic; but I can't remeber the name. I remeber he played "I still miss someone" when she was leaving Atlantis. So sad. *sniff*