Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Eri13]

Good insights on GiTM.

Spoiler:

I think JF is indeed whom we have to thank. Thank you Joe.

On the lighting. I lol'd when the lighting director came on JM's blog and much was made of what a great job he did in S4. WTF? Turn the darn lights back up dude. Some screencaps are almost impossible to lighten up, even with Photoshop. And we can't see the pretty. *whines*

On Teyla. I wish she had never told Franibeth that Torren and Kanaan are not on Atlantis. I can't tell you how many times posters here and elsewhere assume that's always true. 1. She was probably lying to protect them. and 2. Even if they were at that time, they aren't always. *fumes*

Woolsey has been Lizzie 2.0.

My favorite part was John's line What if one of them wants to stay?. Heartbreaking? Oh yeah.

I don't know about we but I am because Joe Flanigan is hotter than that exploding sun in Echoes. He exceeds the energy given off when Rodney blew up 5/6 of a solar system. Hell, he far surpasses the big bang itself. Not that I'm shallow or anything.

ITA on the GITM favorite line. I think that's one of those lines that made it past all the censors as being fairly harmless but they didn't realize what people were going to do with it once they got their sparky hands on it. You have to ask...

Spoiler:

Why was it so important for him to ask permission for her to stay? What was John's reason for doing so? Because he really missed his boss? I DON'T THINK SO! Whether you view it as John wanting Elizabeth to stay because he really wanted his friend to stay, or if it is something much deeper than that, it's still a definitive Sparky moment no matter which way you slice it. There IS no other explanation for it.

Carl Binder we luvs you.

Happy Birthday to Joe...and I basically agree with all the discussion about Franibeth--I do think it could have been done much better, but as of now it is what it is. I liked Michelle Morgan and I liked the tone the story took (more or less John's reaction, mostly) but not what they did to Elizabeth. I don't think anyone who saw GITM and was an Elizabeth fan liked what they did to Elizabeth. But considering how TPTB have treated Elizabeth on and off-screen, it was much better than I'd hoped for, which made it okay for me to watch and like.

I promised you gifts and I am almost done--but I had a hard time connecting some elements in the story, so I'll need at least lunch today to clean it up. It may be finished end of today or tomorrow.

[Southern Red]

ITA on the GITM favorite line. I think that's one of those lines that made it past all the censors as being fairly harmless but they didn't realize what people were going to do with it once they got their sparky hands on it. You have to ask...

Spoiler:

Why was it so important for him to ask permission for her to stay? What was John's reason for doing so? Because he really missed his boss? I DON'T THINK SO! Whether you view it as John wanting Elizabeth to stay because he really wanted his friend to stay, or if it is something much deeper than that, it's still a definitive Sparky moment no matter which way you slice it. There IS no other explanation for it.

Carl Binder we luvs you.

Happy Birthday to Joe...and I basically agree with all the discussion about Franibeth--I do think it could have been done much better, but as of now it is what it is. I liked Michelle Morgan and I liked the tone the story took (more or less John's reaction, mostly) but not what they did to Elizabeth. I don't think anyone who saw GITM and was an Elizabeth fan liked what they did to Elizabeth. But considering how TPTB have treated Elizabeth on and off-screen, it was much better than I'd hoped for, which made it okay for me to watch and like.

I promised you gifts and I am almost done--but I had a hard time connecting some elements in the story, so I'll need at least lunch today to clean it up. It may be finished end of today or tomorrow.

Love your thoughts about that line in GiTM.

Spoiler:

I hadn't considered that part about him asking permission. This is the new John, I guess. He wants to follow orders, respects Woolsey and thinks that he may be close to letting her stay. He just wants to know what to expect. Now if I had been writing it, I would have had him taking steps behind Woolsey's back. He just didn't want to lose her again. Oh John!

Vegas John.

Spoiler:

Some discussion about how the Vegas John was our John turned inside out has intrigued me. I agree with that. He's what our John would have been after losing Elizabeth and without his friends. *cries*

[Anuna]

Love your thoughts about that line in GiTM.

Spoiler:

I hadn't considered that part about him asking permission. This is the new John, I guess. He wants to follow orders, respects Woolsey and thinks that he may be close to letting her stay. He just wants to know what to expect. Now if I had been writing it, I would have had him taking steps behind Woolsey's back. He just didn't want to lose her again. Oh John!

Vegas John.

Spoiler:

Some discussion about how the Vegas John was our John turned inside out has intrigued me. I agree with that. He's what our John would have been after losing Elizabeth and without his friends. *cries*

I jut can't wait to see Vegas - few more days! Yay! You'll have my full report on that ep, and I have a John - video planned.

Spoiler:

About John asking Woolsey if Elizabeth can stay - to me it shows just how much he needs this version of her to be her. When the bad repli dude accused her of telling them how to find Atlantis, John was devastated, precisely because of this - but I think it goes all the way back to TRW. I bet they had a conversation about why it was such a horrible experience for her. She couldn't tell what was real. This is why John would have "allowed" her to die naturally in "Adrift", but since that didn't happen, the TRW nightmare continued - only for John. After he met copies of Elizabeth, he lost the ability to tell what really real is. I hope I'm making sense. (I am going to make it clearer in the fic I'm working on for S4/S5 fix it challenge).

And let's not forget my capricorn - buddies:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO JOE, PAUL AND FALCON HORUS!!!

[Eri13]

Love your thoughts about that line in GiTM.

Spoiler:

I hadn't considered that part about him asking permission. This is the new John, I guess. He wants to follow orders, respects Woolsey and thinks that he may be close to letting her stay. He just wants to know what to expect. Now if I had been writing it, I would have had him taking steps behind Woolsey's back. He just didn't want to lose her again. Oh John!

Spoiler:

*sigh* John. *hugs*

Y'know, if Elizabeth had really wanted to stay, and Woolsey was against it, I think you would have eventually had John going against orders. Ah, the lost possibilities...

I remember going back and rewinding that moment on my DVR about 3 times, going 'did he really just say that?' My read on that line was that John was just desperate to have her back. So much that he's already jumping the gun, not even waiting to see if the plan works, if she's really dangerous, or if she even wants to stay herself. He wanted her to stay so badly he charged ahead in the face of everything and basically put his own heart on the line by letting Woolsey know he wanted it. No one else even came close to asking such a thing. I loved that.

I also loved that Woolsey sort of acknowledged John's feelings, by not being patronizing about it or spouting some kind of protocol related mish-mash on his face. He basically said 'we'll see when the time comes', knowing how important it was to John, to have both that hope and the possibility of her being alive again.

That one line, for me, sums up the end of Sparky in canon. Without it we would have had Joe's wonderful expressions that would lead us to see Sparky, but with it, we see into John's heart and that heartfelt desire to have her back whatever way he can. That, to me, is irrefutable evidence of the strength of his feelings for her. Again, taken as strongly platonic or more than that, but there's no question, now, that he didn't just like her, or seek to have her back because she was a friend, he wanted her. Selfishly.

Vegas John.

Spoiler:

Some discussion about how the Vegas John was our John turned inside out has intrigued me. I agree with that. He's what our John would have been after losing Elizabeth and without his friends. *cries*

Spoiler:

I might just have to tune in and watch Vegas when it reruns. It looked interesting, and I'd like to hear the line about the medic, and watch AU John.

[Eri13]

I jut can't wait to see Vegas - few more days! Yay! You'll have my full report on that ep, and I have a John - video planned.

Spoiler:

About John asking Woolsey if Elizabeth can stay - to me it shows just how much he needs this version of her to be her. When the bad repli dude accused her of telling them how to find Atlantis, John was devastated, precisely because of this - but I think it goes all the way back to TRW. I bet they had a conversation about why it was such a horrible experience for her. She couldn't tell what was real. This is why John would have "allowed" her to die naturally in "Adrift", but since that didn't happen, the TRW nightmare continued - only for John. After he met copies of Elizabeth, he lost the ability to tell what really real is. I hope I'm making sense. (I am going to make it clearer in the fic I'm working on for S4/S5 fix it challenge).

And let's not forget my capricorn - buddies:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO JOE, PAUL AND FALCON HORUS!!!

Happy B-day Falcon Horus! Also to marielabbott, it's her birthday as well! Happy Birthday to all!

[Southern Red]

I jut can't wait to see Vegas - few more days! Yay! You'll have my full report on that ep, and I have a John - video planned.

Spoiler:

About John asking Woolsey if Elizabeth can stay - to me it shows just how much he needs this version of her to be her. When the bad repli dude accused her of telling them how to find Atlantis, John was devastated, precisely because of this - but I think it goes all the way back to TRW. I bet they had a conversation about why it was such a horrible experience for her. She couldn't tell what was real. This is why John would have "allowed" her to die naturally in "Adrift", but since that didn't happen, the TRW nightmare continued - only for John. After he met copies of Elizabeth, he lost the ability to tell what really real is. I hope I'm making sense. (I am going to make it clearer in the fic I'm working on for S4/S5 fix it challenge).

And let's not forget my capricorn - buddies:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO JOE, PAUL AND FALCON HORUS!!!

Looking forward to that report. I just rewatched Vegas for the 4th time. Hey, I had to check the DVD I made from my DVR didn't I?

On the GiTM quote.

Spoiler:

I think you made sense. He knew so well what Elizabeth wanted but that wasn't how it happened. Now that he's seen her again, even if it isn't exactly her, I think he's in so much pain he's just being a little selfish. In an okay way. He wants her back and is willing to compromise. John always was good at rationalizing. After all he did say he liked Antarctica.

Spoiler:

*sigh* John. *hugs*

Y'know, if Elizabeth had really wanted to stay, and Woolsey was against it, I think you would have eventually had John going against orders. Ah, the lost possibilities...

I remember going back and rewinding that moment on my DVR about 3 times, going 'did he really just say that?' My read on that line was that John was just desperate to have her back. So much that he's already jumping the gun, not even waiting to see if the plan works, if she's really dangerous, or if she even wants to stay herself. He wanted her to stay so badly he charged ahead in the face of everything and basically put his own heart on the line by letting Woolsey know he wanted it. No one else even came close to asking such a thing. I loved that.

I also loved that Woolsey sort of acknowledged John's feelings, by not being patronizing about it or spouting some kind of protocol related mish-mash on his face. He basically said 'we'll see when the time comes', knowing how important it was to John, to have both that hope and the possibility of her being alive again.

That one line, for me, sums up the end of Sparky in canon. Without it we would have had Joe's wonderful expressions that would lead us to see Sparky, but with it, we see into John's heart and that heartfelt desire to have her back whatever way he can. That, to me, is irrefutable evidence of the strength of his feelings for her. Again, taken as strongly platonic or more than that, but there's no question, now, that he didn't just like her, or seek to have her back because she was a friend, he wanted her. Selfishly.

Spoiler:

I might just have to tune in and watch Vegas when it reruns. It looked interesting, and I'd like to hear the line about the medic, and watch AU John.

Back in Misbegotten, Woolsey saw how John defended her. I think he figured them out a long time ago. He likes John and would have been willing to compromise for him I think. GiTM.

Spoiler:

I remember wondering when I was watching it the first time if John would repeat his actions in TMC and want her to stay. When he did, it was just a confirmation of how much she meant to him to me.

John in Vegas.

Spoiler:

When Rodney talks about the medic, John has his Lizzie face on.

And added Happy Birthday Paul and Falcon Horus.

[SMB_BOOKS]

For any Sparkies who also like to hang out in the SEW/Celebrate Elizabeth thread.....

Spoiler:

In January, we are "Celebrating Elizabeth" by doing picture captioning games. Pics can be solo shots of Elizabeth or Elizabeth with any other character. Come join us and have fun!

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...39466&page=418

[Falcon Horus]

I don't know about we but I am because Joe Flanigan is hotter than that exploding sun in Echoes. He exceeds the energy given off when Rodney blew up 5/6 of a solar system. Hell, he far surpasses the big bang itself. Not that I'm shallow or anything.

Not at all.

And let's not forget my capricorn - buddies:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO JOE, PAUL AND FALCON HORUS!!!

I am in good company.

Happy B-day Falcon Horus! Also to marielabbott, it's her birthday as well! Happy Birthday to all!

We are in good company.

And added Happy Birthday Paul and Falcon Horus.

Thank you!

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! I'm BAAAACK!!!! Seattle was fun and surprisingly not as rainy as feared (though it was COLD!) and the train there and back was quite an adventure (my first real train ride, whee!).

Damn, you guys have been busy here, I've got a lot of posts to catch up on!

So, I hope everyone had a good New Year's, and Happy Birthday to Joe and everyone else celebrating today!

[Eri13]

Good morning, Sparkies! I'm BAAAACK!!!! Seattle was fun and surprisingly not as rainy as feared (though it was COLD!) and the train there and back was quite an adventure (my first real train ride, whee!).

Damn, you guys have been busy here, I've got a lot of posts to catch up on!

So, I hope everyone had a good New Year's, and Happy Birthday to Joe and everyone else celebrating today!

Hi SK! Welcome back!

Update on my fic--I've got some more stuff to hammer out (an emergency alteration to a portfolio I'm doing required my lunch be cut short.)

Look for it tomorrow. Sorry for the delay, but I want it to be acceptable, and I think it's almost there!

[Reiko]

Spoiler:

About John asking Woolsey if Elizabeth can stay - to me it shows just how much he needs this version of her to be her. When the bad repli dude accused her of telling them how to find Atlantis, John was devastated, precisely because of this - but I think it goes all the way back to TRW. I bet they had a conversation about why it was such a horrible experience for her. She couldn't tell what was real. This is why John would have "allowed" her to die naturally in "Adrift", but since that didn't happen, the TRW nightmare continued - only for John. After he met copies of Elizabeth, he lost the ability to tell what really real is. I hope I'm making sense. (I am going to make it clearer in the fic I'm working on for S4/S5 fix it challenge).

Which begs the question, once again -- have what we been seeing actually reality? We've been presented with so many illusion/double storylines post-TRW that it's possible. Did Elizabeth really conquer the nanites in TRW (I'd like to think she did if you take out recent storylines), or did they simply release her in one way and capture her in another? Could John been effected after his contact with her? After all, most of the stories are told from his POV.

Could both be trapped in their own virtual realities whilst in a coma? Or sharing the same given the replicator nanites all have links between one another?

[Eri13]

Which begs the question, once again -- have what we been seeing actually reality? We've been presented with so many illusion/double storylines post-TRW that it's possible. Did Elizabeth really conquer the nanites in TRW (I'd like to think she did if you take out recent storylines), or did they simply release her in one way and capture her in another? Could John been effected after his contact with her? After all, most of the stories are told from his POV.

Could both be trapped in their own virtual realities whilst in a coma? Or sharing the same given the replicator nanites all have links between one another?

I think the answer to that is simple--what do you want it to be?

Unless they give us something definitive in the movies, I think John's future, Elizabeth's future and the rest are open to interpretation. Of course, alternative realities can always be an answer to everything, but even if you assume the canon ending that we'll be getting is true reality, what happens in the future--the questions about Elizabeth's 'real' persona, for example--will be left up in the air.

Until we're given an encyclopedia of the history of Atlantis after the show ended, we'll never really know the truth. But that's what's fun about it, too, because everyone can imagine their own ending. And I hope TPTB have enough sense to leave it that way.

What I appreciate about TMC and GITM, however, is that with the stories being written and acted the way they were, it's a little easier for me to draw my conclusions from canon rather than fighting it. I don't have to contrive as much if canon leaves it open-ended. And so far, canon has done just that.

[Scary Kitty]

Which begs the question, once again -- have what we been seeing actually reality? We've been presented with so many illusion/double storylines post-TRW that it's possible. Did Elizabeth really conquer the nanites in TRW (I'd like to think she did if you take out recent storylines), or did they simply release her in one way and capture her in another? Could John been effected after his contact with her? After all, most of the stories are told from his POV.

Could both be trapped in their own virtual realities whilst in a coma? Or sharing the same given the replicator nanites all have links between one another?

I'd say that's very possible. And the beauty of having AUs within Stargate means that at least in one universe, if not in the canon/main timeline, that may well be what's happening. So no matter how you look at it, Sparky wins.

I think the answer to that is simple--what do you want it to be?

Unless they give us something definitive in the movies, I think John's future, Elizabeth's future and the rest are open to interpretation. Of course, alternative realities can always be an answer to everything, but even if you assume the canon ending that we'll be getting is true reality, what happens in the future--the questions about Elizabeth's 'real' persona, for example--will be left up in the air.

Until we're given an encyclopedia of the history of Atlantis after the show ended, we'll never really know the truth. But that's what's fun about it, too, because everyone can imagine their own ending. And I hope TPTB have enough sense to leave it that way.

What I appreciate about TMC and GITM, however, is that with the stories being written and acted the way they were, it's a little easier for me to draw my conclusions from canon rather than fighting it. I don't have to contrive as much if canon leaves it open-ended. And so far, canon has done just that.

Exactly my thought. We haven't gotten a definitive answer on the show, and I highly doubt we will in the movie (yes, movie singular. I've had the feeling for some time now that we probably won't get more than one.). And while the way that matters have been left so open-ended is irritating to those of us who like things neatly tied up, in a way it also frees us to write our own ending to the story in a manner that melds show canon with our own personal interpretations of canon, and then to grow beyond that in ways that TPTW just don't have the guts to try.

[SMB_BOOKS]

I'd say that's very possible. And the beauty of having AUs within Stargate means that at least in one universe, if not in the canon/main timeline, that may well be what's happening. So no matter how you look at it, Sparky wins.



Exactly my thought. We haven't gotten a definitive answer on the show, and I highly doubt we will in the movie (yes, movie singular. I've had the feeling for some time now that we probably won't get more than one.). And while the way that matters have been left so open-ended is irritating to those of us who like things neatly tied up, in a way it also frees us to write our own ending to the story in a manner that melds show canon with our own personal interpretations of canon, and then to grow beyond that in ways that TPTW just don't have the guts to try.

Amen to that!

[KrisRussel]

Hey Sparkies... Gosh... all that talk about GitM and Vegas is making me really anxious to watch s5... or atleast those two eps of s5

Also happy B-day from me to our beloved Joe Flanigan. And of course also a happy b-day to our fellow sparkies Falcon Horus and marielabbott. You guys are very lucky to share your b-day with JF

I was thinking that it would really be awesome if the last scene of the last episode was a shot from Elizabeth like the one in 'Be all my Sins...' and that they would pick up on that for the movie... but of course... now I'm just wishful thinking...