Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[atlantis_babe34]

I jsut wrote my YOTS fic and in my opinion i think your guys will love it. i'll give you a hint. It has to do wtih sparky babiez

[Wormhole]

I jsut wrote my YOTS fic and in my opinion i think your guys will love it. i'll give you a hint. It has to do wtih sparky babiez

Queue sparkie babies...

Spoiler:

[atlantis_babe34]

sparky has babiez they jsut arn't on the show

[Eri13]

With Larrin being a very watered down version of the stereotype: sexy in tight leather, likes beating up men yet freezes at the sight of one measly little Wraith, and has the personality of wet cardboard.

Yes, SGA has never had a problem placing 'the battle babe' in there. Most sci-fi shows have a token battle babe in there simply because everyone believes men need to see women strapped in tight leather thunking people.

So...no takers on "The Gift" discussion? Did people just not like the episode as much as me?

Okay, then, onto what I consider one of the best season finale cliffhangers I've ever seen--The Siege.

"The Siege, I" is the set up, so there's a lot of exposition and not too much action, but we do have some important things happen--the largest of which is at the end, and something I've never forgiven TPTB for. >8D

We begin with the meeting about the hive ships, and like the scene in TG, this one impresses me with Elizabeth's command. I love her in these episodes, because she appears so strong--even when the military intervene.





We have a continuation of the Teyla storyline from TG in this episode--at least there's continuity there.



For all the gravity, we do have one really cute scene--ironic because Bates and John are at each other's throats the rest of the time. But not with Elizabeth! She brings out the best of everyone. And, again, here's John being sweet and comfortable with her--he's awkward throughout the rest of the episode, but not here. And look at how close they're all sitting!

BATES: M85-393?
SHEPPARD: No. We’ve only been there at night and it gets ridiculously hot during the day, so no – not really an option.
WEIR: We wouldn’t be having this problem if the damn Alpha site that we’d picked hadn’t been marked by the Wraith.
SHEPPARD: They’re a real pain in the ass, aren’t they?!
WEIR: Yes they are!
SHEPPARD: How about M4H-212?
BATES: No – crawling with Genii spies.
SHEPPARD: You know that for a fact, Sergeant, or is your spidey sense just tingling?
BATES (smiling): It’s a fact, sir.

Sandwiched between two good looking men trying to impress you is definitely reason to smile.

Zelenka and Elizabeth once again have a good bonding time in this episode, and I love how much we get to know him through her. Sticking out in my mind, too, is how he calls her 'Elizabeth' as well. Most of the time he refers to her as Doctor Weir, including through Season 3, but in important moments he'll use her name. That to me is a result of Elizabeth's encouraging him to--she has never enforced the formality of her leadership position on anyone, but people are always respectful of her unless she seems to have encouraged the informality. And they bond pretty well over this desperate situation--Zelenka is always upfront with Elizabeth and as reassuring as he can be while still telling her the truth. Their relationship was always that way.







We finally reach the culmination of the Bates/Teyla issue, and though I thought Bates was always a little overbearing, I was glad Teyla finally showed weakness too. His remarks were out of line, but like Kavanaugh, his POV was necessary.

I was sorta surprised at the 'personal feelings' accusation he levels at John, mostly because I wasn't convinced Bates would raise that issue in that situation. He's been straightforward military the entire time, and then all of a sudden he comes out of left field against his commanding officer with a very personal attack, in front of Weir and Zelenka. Why then? High drama, of course, show wise, but in terms of realism it didn't make sense and felt very contrived. For me, it's just another of those times when I believe the writers didn't know how to write in the relationship stuff. If it was intended to be a Sheyla hint, I think they could have done much better, in a more personal setting.





What really irritates me is that, romantic or not, that issue of why John supports Teyla is never brought up again. As a Sparky, I have no problem with that, but as a writer, failure to continue an idea really irritates me. Bates's accusation seems paranoid because they never address it again--and considering how many people heard him yell it across the gateroom, it should have been brought up later. But it's not--John, in fact, doesn't seem convinced she's not guilty until the Wraith situation and she's completely exonerated. And there are no personal asides. The issue effectively ends with Teyla being cleared due to "Bob", and as we move into Siege II & III, the personal feelings (and moments) are ALL Sparky.



Moving on--it was nice to see Halling again--and though they're back to debating the sanctity of custom, I'm glad we got to hear that argument. My only gripe is that they always seem to make Halling's position seem weak. Perhaps it is, but Elizabeth is never given the chance to 'change' his mind--only to trump his judgment.





The Wraith parts were interesting, but I don't feel the need to recap them too much here. I thought the plotline of having the city not be able to pick up the Wraith when it came out of hibernation--especially when the city could sense a nanovirus outbreak of non-living replicators--was weak. But I guess they had to find a way to exonerate Teyla and make the situation even more grave.






Hello, Bob

Finally, the first huge casualty of "The Siege", and one I've never forgiven TPTB for--the loss of Peter Grodin.

Of all the secondary characters on Atlantis, I can unequivocally say that Grodin was my favorite. I really like Zelenka (who has almost became more than secondary) but of the semi-important characters who pop up at random times, like Chuck, Peter was a great character. I always liked his level-headedness, his knowledge of the systems and the way he could cautiously advise without stepping on toes. He also had a great attitude--and some good comedic moments.

I was upset when he died, and even moreso that he didn't get a proper mourning period. I suppose there was no time, but I wish he'd been remembered after Siege III. RIP, Peter. The first of the really good characters to be taken--wasted lives removed from Atlantis.







I suppose we can spend two days a piece on Siege II and Siege III, so perhaps we'll run SII tomorrow and through the weekend, and Siege III Monday and Tuesday of next week?

[Anuna]

We finally reach the culmination of the Bates/Teyla issue, and though I thought Bates was always a little overbearing, I was glad Teyla finally showed weakness too. His remarks were out of line, but like Kavanaugh, his POV was necessary.

I was sorta surprised at the 'personal feelings' accusation he levels at John, mostly because I wasn't convinced Bates would raise that issue in that situation. He's been straightforward military the entire time, and then all of a sudden he comes out of left field against his commanding officer with a very personal attack, in front of Weir and Zelenka. Why then? High drama, of course, show wise, but in terms of realism it didn't make sense and felt very contrived. For me, it's just another of those times when I believe the writers didn't know how to write in the relationship stuff. If it was intended to be a Sheyla hint, I think they could have done much better, in a more personal setting.


What really irritates me is that, romantic or not, that issue of why John supports Teyla is never brought up again. As a Sparky, I have no problem with that, but as a writer, failure to continue an idea really irritates me. Bates's accusation seems paranoid because they never address it again--and considering how many people heard him yell it across the gateroom, it should have been brought up later. But it's not--John, in fact, doesn't seem convinced she's not guilty until the Wraith situation and she's completely exonerated. And there are no personal asides. The issue effectively ends with Teyla being cleared due to "Bob", and as we move into Siege II & III, the personal feelings (and moments) are ALL Sparky.

I snipped your post Eri, I hope you don't mind. I had no time really for a proper discussion yesterday, and frankly, I'm no match to your insight! But I'll add two pennies of my own

You're right, the personal comment that Bates made simply doesn't fit in. It was a WTF?! moment that made me arch my eyebrow, but then I moved on and forgot about it because the issue was never mentioned, and well because everything else was so much more important. It made Bates look unprofessional, and maybe even paranoid. From writer's point of view this is an example of how something, anything shouldn't be dealt with, hinted at... whatever. Through the second half of S1 we are observing how sparky relationship develops, becoming a basis for something really amazing, growing and maturing; while we also witness a rift between John's and Teyla's POVs in something what she sees as a personal matter and he as professional (tactic decision). And then TPTB choose to stick a neon light in, to tell us: look! Bates thinks that his CO has hots for the alien princess! IMO that's ridiculous. Like Eri said, a personal relationship should be hinted in a personal situation.... this scene is pretty much cliched. What I find even more funny is that John treats Telya strictly like a team member. Maybe I am too biased, but I don't see a tiniest hint of attraction toward Teyla in these episodes.

Men. Or at least Atlantis writers. They fail at relationships.

Anyway, Siege I was a great interlude into the best season finale EVER! When I watched it, I knew there are two more seasons for me to see and that they will save the day, but the fear and desperation created in these episodes was REAL. I felt it together with them, and no other SGA season final managed to repeat this feeling.... only to annoy me.

[justhere1971]

See the whole "personal feelings" comment never bothered me at all. I always interpreted that as since John was the one who brought the entire group of Athosians to Atlantis, because of what he did --- he still has a guilty conscious about it. So he tries to shield Teyla from any attacks & such.

[Anuna]

See the whole "personal feelings" comment never bothered me at all. I always interpreted that as since John was the one who brought the entire group of Athosians to Atlantis, because of what he did --- he still has a guilty conscious about it. So he tries to shield Teyla from any attacks & such.

I did find it a bit stupid, but I wasn't bothered either. I interpreted it like - she's on his team so Bates thinks he is covering her butt (not literally!! LOL) when not deserved... if that makes sense. But yeah, I did know what the wanted to hint on. Made of fail.

[Eri13]

I snipped your post Eri, I hope you don't mind. I had no time really for a proper discussion yesterday, and frankly, I'm no match to your insight! But I'll add two pennies of my own

Please, snip away! They're too freakin' long to begin with. XD

Anyway, Siege I was a great interlude into the best season finale EVER! When I watched it, I knew there are two more seasons for me to see and that they will save the day, but the fear and desperation created in these episodes was REAL. I felt it together with them, and no other SGA season final managed to repeat this feeling.... only to annoy me.

Same here. Although save for a few misteps, I appreciate Misbegotten.

See the whole "personal feelings" comment never bothered me at all. I always interpreted that as since John was the one who brought the entire group of Athosians to Atlantis, because of what he did --- he still has a guilty conscious about it. So he tries to shield Teyla from any attacks & such.

I did find it a bit stupid, but I wasn't bothered either. I interpreted it like - she's on his team so Bates thinks he is covering her butt (not literally!! LOL) when not deserved... if that makes sense. But yeah, I did know what the wanted to hint on. Made of fail.

MADE OF FAIL! XDDDD

I wasn't so much bothered by it as a story element, just kinda irritated in terms of the writing. I interpret it like you do, that he's calling out more John's friendships than his 'love interest'--everyone will take their own personal view on that depending on their preferences, I guess--but I still feel like it was stuck in there awkwardly. If I was a Sheyla fan I'd be glad they put it in but really irritated they didn't do more with it, is I guess what I'm saying. It'd kinda be like having the scene in Conversion with Caldwell where he remarks on how close they are, but instead of Elizabeth proving that by spending the episode beside John, she just hung around in her office the whole time and never comforted him.

It's like, why put it in if you don't get payoff? Then the entire rest of the time in Siege it becomes all John/Elizabeth. Or is payoff maybe the same for everyone else as for us--you look for what you can get because the writers are so scarce on it in general? *LOL*

[Anuna]

My theory is that these writers don't know what to do with relationships. They use UST like a convenient plot device, thinking they can pull that off until forever. I think most of the viewers ends up very frustrated over something like this, and one more thing - we're dealing with grown up people here. Grown up people need physical intimacy, it's a biological need. Just look at the sam/Jack thing. It looks like they couldn't decide what to do with that "relationship". The common excuse is that its against the rules. Well d'oh. Grave circumastances and near death situations cause people to act irrationaly and break the rules, because we are all made of flesh and blood. So please, writers, if you are hinting at any kind of love interest, first sit and decide what do you want to do with it. Don't toss it around like a mop. It's no good.

No love, Anuna.

[Scary Kitty]

*waves to everyone*

Big Finish has posted a trailer for the first SGA audio drama CD, with Torri as narrator. Sounds pretty cool, you can listen to it here:

http://www.bigfinish.com/Stargate-At...Necessary-Evil

I'll be back with my take on Siege I in a little while!

[Scary Kitty]

Yes, SGA has never had a problem placing 'the battle babe' in there. Most sci-fi shows have a token battle babe in there simply because everyone believes men need to see women strapped in tight leather thunking people.

Seriously. It's like they're all still stuck in the 60's and think only men watch sci-fi. When it comes to Kirking, McKay ought to be criticizing TPTB, not Sheppard!

So, to The Siege!

Zelenka and Elizabeth once again have a good bonding time in this episode, and I love how much we get to know him through her. Sticking out in my mind, too, is how he calls her 'Elizabeth' as well. Most of the time he refers to her as Doctor Weir, including through Season 3, but in important moments he'll use her name. That to me is a result of Elizabeth's encouraging him to--she has never enforced the formality of her leadership position on anyone, but people are always respectful of her unless she seems to have encouraged the informality. And they bond pretty well over this desperate situation--Zelenka is always upfront with Elizabeth and as reassuring as he can be while still telling her the truth. Their relationship was always that way.

It makes Zelenka's statement to John in "Adrift" that John did the right thing in denying McKay's plan to turn on Elizabeth's nanites all the more poignant. Radek, like John, also knew Elizabeth well enough to understand what she would and would not have wanted.

We finally reach the culmination of the Bates/Teyla issue, and though I thought Bates was always a little overbearing, I was glad Teyla finally showed weakness too. His remarks were out of line, but like Kavanaugh, his POV was necessary.

I was sorta surprised at the 'personal feelings' accusation he levels at John, mostly because I wasn't convinced Bates would raise that issue in that situation. He's been straightforward military the entire time, and then all of a sudden he comes out of left field against his commanding officer with a very personal attack, in front of Weir and Zelenka. Why then? High drama, of course, show wise, but in terms of realism it didn't make sense and felt very contrived. For me, it's just another of those times when I believe the writers didn't know how to write in the relationship stuff. If it was intended to be a Sheyla hint, I think they could have done much better, in a more personal setting.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...l/bscap170.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...l/bscap188.jpg

What really irritates me is that, romantic or not, that issue of why John supports Teyla is never brought up again. As a Sparky, I have no problem with that, but as a writer, failure to continue an idea really irritates me. Bates's accusation seems paranoid because they never address it again--and considering how many people heard him yell it across the gateroom, it should have been brought up later. But it's not--John, in fact, doesn't seem convinced she's not guilty until the Wraith situation and she's completely exonerated. And there are no personal asides. The issue effectively ends with Teyla being cleared due to "Bob", and as we move into Siege II & III, the personal feelings (and moments) are ALL Sparky.

I didn't have so much of a problem with Bates' accusations; he's been consistent in his suspicion of Teyla up to this point, and after having his previous objections brushed aside (in his mind), he may have felt it was time to bring out the big guns, as it were. It was totally out of line on his part, but with the Wraith bearing down on Atlantis, he probably figured he didn't have anything to lose at that point.

The lack of follow-up on why John supports Teyla is definitely annoying. Is it simply because she's his teammate, and sticking up for her is just being a good teammate? Or is it supposed to be a hint of something more? It certainly doesn't look like it's the latter, given how John/Elizabeth heavy the entire three-parter is.

Moving on--it was nice to see Halling again--and though they're back to debating the sanctity of custom, I'm glad we got to hear that argument. My only gripe is that they always seem to make Halling's position seem weak. Perhaps it is, but Elizabeth is never given the chance to 'change' his mind--only to trump his judgment.

Which in turn makes her look a little... overbearing? Arrogant? And I didn't like seeing that, because it's not supposed to be in her nature to behave that way.

Finally, the first huge casualty of "The Siege", and one I've never forgiven TPTB for--the loss of Peter Grodin.

Of all the secondary characters on Atlantis, I can unequivocally say that Grodin was my favorite. I really like Zelenka (who has almost became more than secondary) but of the semi-important characters who pop up at random times, like Chuck, Peter was a great character. I always liked his level-headedness, his knowledge of the systems and the way he could cautiously advise without stepping on toes. He also had a great attitude--and some good comedic moments.

I was upset when he died, and even moreso that he didn't get a proper mourning period. I suppose there was no time, but I wish he'd been remembered after Siege III. RIP, Peter. The first of the really good characters to be taken--wasted lives removed from Atlantis.

I miss Peter.

The no mourning period? It's all the more annoying because we've consistently gotten some sort of aftermath scene for all of the other regular and recurring characters who have gone; hell, even Sumner got some love with a little line at the end of Rising and later in LFP when Elizabeth asked John if he wanted to record a message for Sumner's family! Grr.

My theory is that these writers don't know what to do with relationships. They use UST like a convenient plot device, thinking they can pull that off until forever. I think most of the viewers ends up very frustrated over something like this, and one more thing - we're dealing with grown up people here. Grown up people need physical intimacy, it's a biological need. Just look at the sam/Jack thing. It looks like they couldn't decide what to do with that "relationship". The common excuse is that its against the rules. Well d'oh. Grave circumastances and near death situations cause people to act irrationaly and break the rules, because we are all made of flesh and blood. So please, writers, if you are hinting at any kind of love interest, first sit and decide what do you want to do with it. Don't toss it around like a mop. It's no good.

No love, Anuna.

Exactly. The tension and questions of "will they?" or "won't they?" do help to attract the audience, but it only works for so long before the audience gets tired of waiting and walks away. Especially now, when people in general seem to want instant gratification in all things, stretching out something like a relationship on a TV show for too long is the kiss of death as far as viewer interest is concerned.

[Anuna]

I don't take that "a relationship would ruin the show" cr*p of an excuse. Writing a good relationship is hard, it's hard not to let it slip into a soap, but its doable. Lots of people on my flist do it very successfully and I'm simply amazed by these supposedly very talented writers who are paid to give us stories, that they can't come up with anything better than overdone clichees and cheap plot devices?

Love is one of the most important things in life. All forms of art deal with it, and it should be no exception in TV shows, I only wish we weren't given the weak, lame stories about heroines who wait to be saved and boy heroes who want the prettiest girl; God forbid choosing the smart one, or the one who can actually understand him.


What i like about Elizabeth and John, and their interaction - is that they are equals. She is his boss, but in every other sense they are a balanced match. Sometimes he is keeping her safe, but sometimes she is the one saving him. There is this give and take dynamics between them, and that's a hallmark of a quality relationship. How stupid do you have to be not to put something like this to use? I love when sci fis hows try to give us messages about life and in what ways we could make it better. John and Elizabeth are a great message, one that speaks about mutual trust, loyalty, respect, care, support, understanding. True love isn't only about feeling butterflies in your stomach, that feeling goes away after some time. You need strong foundations for a good relationship, and sparky have that. PTB missed their chance to show a good, healthy relationship; the way it could be; and how these smart and caring people would fight all kinds of trouble and challenges together.

Ah well... like Kitty's signature says: I reject your canon and replace it with my own.



How does that quote go... love isn't gazing at each other, but looking together in same direction?

[Lady eliza]

Hi I've been away because of a death in the family. What have I been missing?

[Anuna]

Hi I've been away because of a death in the family. What have I been missing?

Hey, welcome back! ((hugs for you)) I'm sorry to hear about your loss.

[Lady eliza]

Thank you. ((((Anuna))))