Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Vixen]

Do you think it's because John wants to be a hero?

Do you think he has a 'hero complex'??

I think tptb probably have it.

Some moments:

Spoiler:

After Teyla mentions his stubbornness. She slapped him with the obvious.


Annoyed from the previous incident.


"Elizabeth."



Second clash:







Grodin's smile afterwards. Hmmm?









After she gives him the green light to take the puddle jumper.





In the air.

[Suzotchka]

Well, I think John does have a bit of a hero worship complex going on. He wants to make things right. And I think he figures that with his track record - why not?

But I also think that Elizabeth has shown him that you can do the right thing and go about it the right way.

Am I making sense?

[Anuna]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SUZ!!!!!!!!!

I come bearing gifts: shirtless!john (spoilers just for size)

Spoiler:

look in the 2nd pic....john is adjusting his pants!

Oh these are killing me!! Why do I like thin men?

Echo-o-o-o-o

Is there anyone here?

I'm baaack!! Beware!!! *monster smile*

Ok, so we are talking about 'Hot Zone'.

I was surprised a bit to see how she reacted after John's decline of her authority, she didn't like it and made it clear, but there was no trace of dislike towards him for what he did. It was like she understood how he felt and why he did it.
Imagine if Kavanaugh were in John's place, and do something like this, she would simply go crazy, because she knows she can't possibly trust that man. But, John, she forgives; she has to tell him that that must never happen again, but there is no negative feeling toward him.

And he did what he did not because he wanted to disobey or play the hero, but because he wanted to save the people he cares about. And when they talk about what happened, at the end, he turns the talk in his favour saying that he actually saved them all, because, my feeling is, that he didn't want to argue with her or upset her more; he knew that she didn't like what he did and I got the feeling that he was sorry he had to do this to her.

So I can conclude that they are much closer than a simple boss and the military commander, if we look at the talk in the end. They are both decided and capable people who, most important, have learnt to trust each other and finally not bear any ill feeling for the other one if that one happened to disagree.

In any other case they would have had a big fight over this and both would have felt that the other doesn't understand (remember Elizabeth shouting at Rodney in 'Trinity'; sometimes I feel like to her Rodney is like a kid that need to be supervised and/or guided, but John is an equal). But not in their case, they only talk and understand each other. And that, IMO, it's not very often, unless those two people are really close and are willing to understand the other one. Which usually happens when they like each other, they feel complete together.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you are a strong leader or an independent capable military person you wouldn't like to have someone who has a close position (they are both leaders in their respective fields) contradict you in front of the others. And if you are a strong person, like those two are, you wouldn't let that go to easy, unless there is a an affinity that you can't overlook.
She should have been mad that her order wasn't obeyed, he should have been mad that his military opinion would have been disregarded, but none of them didn't argue on this point much more than necessary. In fact he didn't argue at all, he just stated that the whole thing went well because he did what he did. And I think they reacted that way because they couldn't possibly be mad at one another.

I don't know if I am making any sense, but I think that if I were her and someone other than John would have done this I would have been much more upset. But to be mad at John Sheppard is simply impossible, from her POV.

Nice episode, BTW. Unfortunatelly, I don't like seeing John risking his life so often.

Oh God, where to start? There are so many things about this episode that I loved, and forgive me for mentioning Rodney in the first place - IMO he was the true hero here, given how he usually reacts when his health is threatened. But the real show was between Elizabeth and John (sparks flying? Oh yeah )

It was disturbing to see him disrupting her authority. I didn't like it, I still don't although I come to view the whole situation differently, as a part of the bigger picture. This was important moment in their relationship development.

I agree that there was no trace of dislike for him in that final scene. What she didn't like were his actions, and not him as a person. She still respected him as a person, but criticized the way he acted - and that is a good lesson how to criticize someone - don't attack him/her, but say what you don't like about specific behavior that makes you upset.

The fact that she did it in that way made him finally feel guilty IMO. He wasn't ready to give a sincere apology, but what she said to him definitely stuck between his ears. He wanted to wiggle out, and just in the moment when he started to sweat really badly, Carson and Rodney pop in. John was 'saved by the bell', and the overall tension loosened.

If Kavanugh acted the way John acted I think Elizabeth would be more mad, but not because it's Kavanaugh per se, but because of his motives. Elizabeth does know of John's disobedience, but she also knows his heart lies in the right place and his motives are good. The way he acted however wasn't, and that was what she addressed in their fight. And he knew she was right.

Their mutual trust we get to see later is built upon this very fight - not because they sorted out who was right, but because they both kept respecting each other, and IMO, because Elizabeth set a very strict rule and pulled the line - 'I decide what military situation is'. We can see John respect that later on and their relationship turns into smooth one. He knows she'll keep respecting him even if he does something wrong, even if he screws up... no matter what, he will have her respect and she has a right to criticize his actions - but she won't tell him "You are dumb, useless or impossible". That is one great thing about Elizabeth. So I think this is where their mutual affinity starts to grow.

Yes, there's that too of course. He always protects her, more than anybody else, IMO, and I don't think it's just because he knows that others in his team (e.g. Teyla or Ronon) can take care of themselves while she can't. Rodney is many times just as helpless. It's like he's drawn to her, he can't just stay there and imagine something bad happening where she is while he's locked in the gym.

I think their working relationship and the way they set things after HZ fight caused him to be drawn to her. They both learned something from the other, they learned how to communicate and tolerate the other, and they are simply so tuned into each other, I can't imagine one without the other. (which is, obviously, the reason I'm posting here)

Hot Zone is definitely in my top 5 Sparky episodes. I just love the fighting and I love Elizabeth's reaction to that.
I think it was important for them to find out how far they can push each other. That's probably why they now have such a great relationship (both personally and professionally)

That's exactly what happened here. John discovered he pushed too far and got slapped on the fingers. *g*

Elizabeth was warned about John's disobedient nature (and still took him with her to the Pegasus galaxy) and probably should have known that he was going to take a different approach to the whole situation (but then again, noone expected Sumner to be killed so early on and have Sheppard take his place). Like you said, she understood why he did it (even if she didn't agree with most of it) and he risked his life with the bomb (again....) which saved the city. Despite the fact that it wasn't right for him to undermine her authority in front of others (especially Bates) in a situation such as the one they had (even Teyla called him on it), and having put lives at risk later on, Elizabeth couldn't really be angry with him because a) it's best to resolve the differences with your military commander instead of keeping the bad feeling, and b) they were disconnected from Earth and it was in everyone's best interest for these two to learn from the experience and go past it.

And I also agree with you that I don't like seeing John risk his life so often. Given his position it's not a great idea, and it also gets boring. I get that he's supposed to be the 'hero' of the show, but isn't this pushing it at times?

Again, Elizabeth is being wise and tactical. She can't afford to have bad feelings or a grudge towards her military commander. Yes, he can be impossible, but she has to find a way to handle it and make him cooperate. She pushed the right button when she wisely criticized what he did (the way he behaved), and not what he is; she set the rules and John realized it wouldn't be vise or good to contradict her or clash heads with her. She gave him a chance, and now he decided the same; he decided to put his trust in her, seeing that she can be very strong, keep cool head in dangerous situation, and make good decisions - let's not forget that he asked for power to activate those transporters and thanx to that infected scientist entered the main area of the city.

Do you think it's because John wants to be a hero?

Do you think he has a 'hero complex'??

I don't think it's hero complex, it's his personality. His greatest fear is letting people down, not saving them - so he is willing to risk his own life only to prevent that from happening. it's not because he wants to be the hero of the day - it's because he doesn't have a (conscious) choice over this decision, it's stronger than him. If he had a conscious choice, he'd think and decide what is the wisest way to do something. But the need to save others is equal to primal instincts when it comes to John, and that's why his behavior nears suicidal sometimes.

Well, I think John does have a bit of a hero worship complex going on. He wants to make things right. And I think he figures that with his track record - why not?

But I also think that Elizabeth has shown him that you can do the right thing and go about it the right way.

Am I making sense?

This makes a LOT of sense. Read about conscious choice above - in the beginning he knows only one way of acting - on gut impulse, no matter how it turns out for him. But Elizabeth taught him that he has a choice; that there is a choice only if he stops and thinks. She didn't force him to learn it, he chose to learn this from her, and it's an evidence big enough to show us how much she means to him.

BTW, hello again!

[Suzotchka]

This makes a LOT of sense. Read about conscious choice above - in the beginning he knows only one way of acting - on gut impulse, no matter how it turns out for him. But Elizabeth taught him that he has a choice; that there is a choice only if he stops and thinks. She didn't force him to learn it, he chose to learn this from her, and it's an evidence big enough to show us how much she means to him.

BTW, hello again!

Elizabeth has has a important influence on him. I agree, she did show him that he has a choice - and you can still get the outcome that you want.

That's why they're the perfect couple. Elizabeth uses words and John uses action.

[Southern Red]

This has made me think about other times when John has sided against Elizabeth and how it came out. Trinity comes to mind. I'm not sure this still has to be spoiler tagged but just in case.

Spoiler:

By this time we see that Rodney, heck everybody, knows that John has tremendous influence with Elizabeth. This shows us that the differences of HZ have been ironed out and they are working as a team. But here in Trinity, John puts his trust totally in Rodney and goes to Elizabeth to try to persuade her to let Rodney have his way. The interesting part is when Caldwell enters the mix and adds the military reason of needing a weapon. You can see the agreement in John's face here . He never takes his eyes off her when Caldwell is speaking, but ducks his head and looks hopeful that she agrees. He is essentially asking her to trust him.

Then in FS

Spoiler:

again he chooses the military solution and argues more vehemently with her. I don't think he realized that she would object so strongly because everything had been going so smoothly with them for so long. After the disagreement between them he is just devastated that she has hard feelings and keeps trying to talk to her. This time unlike in HZ she just doesn't want to hear it. I'm not sure what to make of this because it shows such inconsistent writing of her character. Considering all that happened in between HZ and FS, I would have expected her to react differently, but now that I know they were planning to get rid of her I understand.

What it boils down to in HZ is that they reach a new level in their relationship. They tested the boundaries and both learned that the other has points past which they will not back down. John values her life above his own. That much is plain.

[Suzotchka]

Which epsiode is it that Rodney asks John to talk to Elizabeth? "She listens to you" he says (or something like that?)

[Anuna]

This has made me think about other times when John has sided against Elizabeth and how it came out. Trinity comes to mind. I'm not sure this still has to be spoiler tagged but just in case.

Spoiler:

By this time we see that Rodney, heck everybody, knows that John has tremendous influence with Elizabeth. This shows us that the differences of HZ have been ironed out and they are working as a team. But here in Trinity, John puts his trust totally in Rodney and goes to Elizabeth to try to persuade her to let Rodney have his way. The interesting part is when Caldwell enters the mix and adds the military reason of needing a weapon. You can see the agreement in John's face here . He never takes his eyes off her when Caldwell is speaking, but ducks his head and looks hopeful that she agrees. He is essentially asking her to trust him.

Then in FS

Spoiler:

again he chooses the military solution and argues more vehemently with her. I don't think he realized that she would object so strongly because everything had been going so smoothly with them for so long. After the disagreement between them he is just devastated that she has hard feelings and keeps trying to talk to her. This time unlike in HZ she just doesn't want to hear it. I'm not sure what to make of this because it shows such inconsistent writing of her character. Considering all that happened in between HZ and FS, I would have expected her to react differently, but now that I know they were planning to get rid of her I understand.

What it boils down to in HZ is that they reach a new level in their relationship. They tested the boundaries and both learned that the other has points past which they will not back down. John values her life above his own. That much is plain.

Khm, on FS and writing consistency...

Spoiler:

if they wrote both of them in a consistent manner the episode would probbably be the shippiest one of all! And they don't want to give us that, which brings me to one thing I've been thinking about... it's not TPTB who create this ship. It's us. They write both of them so inconsistently on number of occasions and not only in FS. It's like they created the archetype romantic couple on accident and try to push it under the table, away from people's eyes... why? Now please guys, don't go negative when you read this. this is supposed to be pep talk from me, and probably won't be the last one. What i want to say is - wherever tptb take S4 and characters we love, I think we shouldn't stop to have fun together. Whatever they do isn't as important as the way we decide to behave - it's up to us if this ship sinks or stays floating and sailing, and I say, let's spread our sails and do what we do best - enjoy John and Liz, various aspects of Sparky, write more fanfics, heck we can create virtual seasons too!

Which epsiode is it that Rodney asks John to talk to Elizabeth? "She listens to you" he says (or something like that?)

Is it "Trinity"?

[Suzotchka]

What it boils down to in HZ is that they reach a new level in their relationship. They tested the boundaries and both learned that the other has points past which they will not back down. John values her life above his own. That much is plain.

I agree with you. I think that John would give up his life for any of his friends. But Elizabeth is special to him.

[SGLAB]

Don't forget, Hot Zone was the first episode John called Elizabeth by her first name.

[Anuna]

And I think it's after HZ when she becomes so special. HZ simply changes their relationship becuase what happened put their mutual trust and respect to a test. They grew to trust and respect each other more, which brought them closer together... which resulted in oh so many things!

[Suzotchka]

Don't forget, Hot Zone was the first episode John called Elizabeth by her first name.

Was it? Interesting!

[SGLAB]

Was it? Interesting!

Yep, it was that scene where John and Teyla are getting their hazmat suits on and Elizabeth pauses in anger at John and he stresses Elizabeth to get her to respond to him.

[Anuna]

Yeah, this is very interesting thing. He desperately wanted her attention... or he wanted her to agree with him. You don't use one's name in vain after all. What do you think why he did it?

[Suzotchka]

Yeah, this is very interesting thing. He desperately wanted her attention... or he wanted her to agree with him. You don't use one's name in vain after all. What do you think why he did it?

Hmmm ... I'm trying to recall the scene. Was he angry? Trying to get a point across?

Anuna - did you get my PM? Was that what you were looking for?

[Anuna]

Yup I got the PM and yes - that's the picture! ((HUGS))

Yeah, I think he tried to get his point accross, which means he was desperate to get out and be included in the action which confirms my assumption - he is no good for sitting and waiting.

Oh BTW it seems you might get a new chapter of virgin!john fic very soon. Boy, am I having fun with it. *g*