Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Major_Moomin]

This is partly because the commander has to be around if the idea doesn't work. He has to be around to come up with the next idea. And I think this is a lot more difficult than actually going on the suicide mission. Not that a suicide mission would be easy, but living on with the knowledge that you gave an order that you knew would lead to the deaths of your own men would be comparable to what John had to do in Rising. I don't think Elizabeth understood that then, but she probably does now. They both have to live with the decisions they've made. But I'm not sure John has reached the point where he'll give the order, knowing that those men aren't coming back.

So it's not the case of John believing that he was the only one capable of pulling it off...but more that he'd rather face death himself than put the lives of him men at stake.

[mirafemina]

There's an idea of leadership that's come up a few times in this thread, that the mark of good leadership is being willing to send others to their deaths for the greater good.

As for Conversion itself,

Spoiler:

I do agree that John, in his right mind, would probably never try to force Elizabeth to risk others' lives for his.

But at some point I think he does have to learn how to give that command instead of doing it himself.[/spoiler]

I'm hoping we'll see Shep grow up a bit in S3, and maybe get to the place where he doesn't run off to fly the suicide mission. I like Caldwell because he gives us another more experienced military man to see in action, and he's someone that Shep does look up to in terms of his experience, if not his ranking within the confines of Atlantis.

Shep is still a bit of a little boy when it comes to the whole 'get up and go' side of life on 'Lantis. He tends to scurry off with glee when there's some hi jinx to get involed in. I think it's about time he took a step back and grew into his role, much as we've seen Elizabeth adapt herself to hers. I think it's been said before on here, how Elizabeth has far more experience under her belt to help her with leading 'Lantis than Shep does for being military leader. And hey, wouldn't it be fun to watch a scene where she has to tell him to grow up a bit?

[Luz]

And hey, wouldn't it be fun to watch a scene where she has to tell him to grow up a bit?

Oooh, a dressing down?, we've talked about this at the Shep discussion thread, about how interesting it would be to see Sheppard screwing up ala

Spoiler:

McKay on Trinity

And i think it would be very interesting to see how Weir would react if Sheppard made some terrible mistake, after having talked her into agreeing to some stunt.

[mirafemina]

Oooh, a dressing down?

Okay, so my mind went straight to the gutter with that one. Anyone else?

[Melyanna]

So it's not the case of John believing that he was the only one capable of pulling it off...but more that he'd rather face death himself than put the lives of him men at stake.

I'm sure that's what he intends, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it has occasionally come off that way. He keeps going off on (sometimes stupidly) dangerous missions, and even in the very first episode, Ford pointed out that if John died in trying to rescue Sumner, they'd all be trapped there. The message that can send to subordinates, who know that their job is to do what their commander says no matter how dangerous it is, is that they're not trusted to do it. It's a bit like a parent continually stopping a child from doing something for himself. It may be easier in the short term for the parent to do it, but it can send a message that the child isn't good enough. I seriously doubt this is the message John's trying to send, but like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if it's come off that way. If he's going to get his men to trust him and follow his orders without question, it has to be obvious to them that he trusts them without question too.

[gambit]

I like Caldwell because he gives us another more experienced military man to see in action, and he's someone that Shep does look up to in terms of his experience, if not his ranking within the confines of Atlantis.

What are you talking about? Shep dosn't look up to Caldwell for anything.

[mirafemina]

What are you talking about? Shep dosn't look up to Caldwell for anything.

I mean in terms of superiority. Caldwell has more experience and rank over Shep - which Shep does acknowledge even if he doesn't agree with him. Caldwell is the superior officer in terms of rank (isn't he a full colonel as opposed to a lt col?), and Shep has to call him 'sir' etc. I don't mean that Caldwell is Shep's hero or anything like that. But he is, after all, the guy who should be in charge on 'Lantis (according to tptb on earth).

[Trialia]

Heee. Writing shippy drabbles for challenges is funnnnnn.

Spoiler:

He'd watched her often, since they'd gone to Atlantis, from his first meeting with her onward. He learned some things she loved, things she enjoyed, things she had trouble doing without...

He'd seen her light on one night when he'd turned in, as many times before. When he woke to find her office still brightly lit in the early hours, he didn't make "good morning" his first words to her. He simply headed to the mess hall, returning to greet her with a mug of sweetened chicory.

Her smile of thanks was all he needed to make it a habit.

[Luz]

When i was watching BB's video this jumped at me

Allies

Spoiler:

I'd noticed this when i first watched the episode, but since i haven't re-watched (due to the lose of it ), it had slipped my mind.
Now it seemed even more noticeable, how Sheppard's hand jumped to his weapon when the wraith queen got closer to Elizabeth. Not only that, see how they are possitioned on that scene (and see who else stands there being ignored), or on the scene in her office (if i remember correctly it was the grandkids scene-gotta watch this again, someday), he walks straight to Elizabeth. I love how protective he is of her .

[A.L.]

Evidence that I need more sleep and less time talking to my sis about Sparky. See the pic below? Notice anything about the shading just below Elizabeth's hands on her left side because of the way she's turned? My sis and I noticed two things. See if you can pick them out before you check the spoiler space below.

Spoiler:

1. Shep's hand is resting nicely and protectively on her hip OR
2. Elizabeth's got a little bluge in her tummy area. Could that be a bun in her oven that has Shep like features? I'm leaning more towards Shep and Elizabeth secretly married thing.

Hey, I warned you. But then again, we've discussed my shippy glasses.

[atlantis_babe34]

HAHAHAHAH lol we can only hope!

[Bladefanatic]

There's an idea of leadership that's come up a few times in this thread, that the mark of good leadership is being willing to send others to their deaths for the greater good. The famous Robert E. Lee quote is "To be a good soldier you must love the army; to be a good commander you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love." The movie U-571, while horrendously inaccurate in all things historical and military, expressed a similar sentiment. Near the beginning of the movie, the CO tells his second-in-command that a good executive officer leads the death charge. A good commanding officer has to order it.

This is partly because the commander has to be around if the idea doesn't work. He has to be around to come up with the next idea. And I think this is a lot more difficult than actually going on the suicide mission. Not that a suicide mission would be easy, but living on with the knowledge that you gave an order that you knew would lead to the deaths of your own men would be comparable to what John had to do in Rising. I don't think Elizabeth understood that then, but she probably does now. They both have to live with the decisions they've made. But I'm not sure John has reached the point where he'll give the order, knowing that those men aren't coming back.

As for Conversion itself,

Spoiler:

I do agree that John, in his right mind, would probably never try to force Elizabeth to risk others' lives for his.

But at some point I think he does have to learn how to give that command instead of doing it himself.

I love that you brought this up. My best friend is an officer in the air force, and when I forced asked him to watch an eps of Atlantis with me one Friday (He wanted to go see a move....::the shame:: ) all he could talk about was that Sheppard should not and would not be taking all those risks himself. Even though I tried to remind him it was a tv show, he could not get past it. He just kept rambling on about the commander not putting himself in jepordy as he had to lead the rest of the men etc...

So anyway this ramble is just to agree with Melyanna.

[atlantis_babe34]

LOL.. does that get annyoing him commenting on it all the time?

[hopalong]

I think she is talking about a made for tv movie that aired a few years ago. It was a disaster movie about earthquakes plaguing the west coast. It ended with

Spoiler:

Half of California breaking off into an island.

Personally I love overly cliche disaster movies. I'm really looking forward to tonights sequel to 10.5.

Ok...on-topic...Sparky...pic anyone?

Like the pics.

I've seen that '10.5'. Yeah, prolly not all that good, but I enjoyed it well enough. There's a sequel? Cool, dunno when I'd get to see it here in Wollongong, though.

10.5 had Brian Markinson in it. He haunts me, I swear! He was in Dark Angel, guest starred in SG-1, TXF, The Sentinel, Supernatural...

[hopalong]

I think Epiphany counted as kirking because:

Spoiler:

He didn't seem all that interested in her and after sleeping with her, he quickly dropped her without appearing upset at all. In his defense, she did seem kind of creepy.

I got fussed at the one time I posted here for saying something anti-kirking, so if this post ticks y'all off just let me know. I'll delete it and go away. I'll probably still lurk, though, because I'm a big sparky fan.

Maybe I don't see it as kirking, cos of the way I term 'kirking' (if that makes sense).

To me, kirking is when he (John, Jack, whomever the male lead is) goes to the alien planet, has an affair with 'cute' local woman, and goes back home without a second thought. SGA examples would be

Spoiler:

season 1's 'Sanctuary' (though I didn't mind that ep much) and season 2's 'The Tower' (which I haven't seen yet).

The reason I don't classify what happened in Epiphany as kirking is

Spoiler:

John had been there for quite some time, long enough for genuine deeper feelings to develop. He was drawn to her, and there was a slight hesitation there when she was about to ascend. He wasn't overly upset, but it did affect him.

But that's just IMHO. And here I thought I wasn't gonna comment on that until we got around to discussing the episode as a group.

And you shouldn't feel you have to lurk, Lissa. I'm pretty sure all Sparky fans are welcome here.