Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Blue Banrigh]

Oh, and I noticed that there were no 'dr weir' and 'colonel sheppard' conversations between sparky, it was first names all the way!

Just thought I'd chime in and say I like them being on a first name basis (more often than not) too.

[Vicky]

And I wonder if any of the characters have recognized this. Several have made note of the fact that Elizabeth and John have a close relationship, and I wonder if they realize that Elizabeth has been willing to let him die for the greater good on more than one occasion. (I'm not entirely convinced that John is. When he was threatened with Elizabeth's death in The Storm, he said he was going to blow up the city if she were killed. Might have been a bluff, but might not have been.)

I think it's important that others realize this, that others see that they're close to each other, but not blinded by friendship.

(And Vicky, I'll take a quiet thread over people fighting with each other or spamming the thread any day of the week. )

I don't think it was bluff in The Storm. He really didn't want the City to fall into the Genii's hands. Elizabeth's life was at stake but I still think Atlantis was more important to him. When he started killing all these men after Kolya told him she was dead, it was partly to take revenge on Elizabeth's death but I think it was also to honour her 'cos he knew she wanted the City to be safe more than anything.

(I'll also take that but I hadn't come since Friday night and usually when I don't come for two days I have 6 or more pages to catch up on so...)

I think that is one of my favourite moments from season 1. She held her head high when Rodney turned to her. But as soon as he looked back to the screen, her resolve broke. Her face crumbled. Like it took all of her strength to hold it in.

When she said "He did it" after the Jumper blew up, there were so much tears in her voice too.

Spoiler:

Elizabeth refuses to kill ShepBug while he still looks like Shep (only blue and a little scaly) because (sob) she lurves him etc (that's my view anyway), but odds are that she'll have to order him killed when he's completely bug. She's just delaying the inevitable. I know that killing him would kind of screw up the cast list of the show, but hey, I think it's kind of cruel and shortsighted of her to keep him alive and in distress for so long. And why the hell wasn't he in the cells that Steve/Bob/Michael used?

Still Conversion

Spoiler:

she had refused to kill him at that moment 'cos she was still hoping they find a way to cure him. Imagine her reaction if she had agreed on what he said and killed him and then found out that there could have been a solution. I think that that what was on her mind when he told her to kill him. She would have only agreed on killing him if she was sure there was no more hope for him.

[Melyanna]

And something about Conversion that bugs me (pun only slightly intended) -

Spoiler:

Elizabeth refuses to kill ShepBug while he still looks like Shep (only blue and a little scaly) because (sob) she lurves him etc (that's my view anyway), but odds are that she'll have to order him killed when he's completely bug. She's just delaying the inevitable. I know that killing him would kind of screw up the cast list of the show, but hey, I think it's kind of cruel and shortsighted of her to keep him alive and in distress for so long. And why the hell wasn't he in the cells that Steve/Bob/Michael used?

I agree with Vicky on this one.

Spoiler:

As long as he was alive, even if he was suffering, there was a chance for them to find a cure. I do think that if it had come to the point where they knew he was beyond hope, she would have given the order to end it.

[Blue Banrigh]

I agree with Vicky on this one.

Spoiler:

As long as he was alive, even if he was suffering, there was a chance for them to find a cure. I do think that if it had come to the point where they knew he was beyond hope, she would have given the order to end it.

I think someone wrote that fic. Can't remember who, though I remember it was quite good.

[lissa1000]

[SIZE="3"]Just saw 'Epiphany' and 'Critical Mass' won't post much about them at the moment (I want to wait until we're discussing them here and see how much I remember), but I want to make this one observation about 'Epiphany':

Spoiler:

I don't count this as John kirking. He had been there for quite some time, and was nursing some resentment about being abandoned. The fact he had been there for six months and had not made a move for most of that precludes kirking. He was annoyed with Elizabeth when they finally got there, remember.

I think Epiphany counted as kirking because:

Spoiler:

He didn't seem all that interested in her and after sleeping with her, he quickly dropped her without appearing upset at all. In his defense, she did seem kind of creepy.

I got fussed at the one time I posted here for saying something anti-kirking, so if this post ticks y'all off just let me know. I'll delete it and go away. I'll probably still lurk, though, because I'm a big sparky fan.

[FoolishPleasure]

I think Epiphany counted as kirking because:

Spoiler:

He didn't seem all that interested in her and after sleeping with her, he quickly dropped her without appearing upset at all. In his defense, she did seem kind of creepy.

It was kirking. He was there six months without doing anything, but the minute he finds that backpack and knows his friends ARE out there, he falls into her arms.

Talk about bad writing.

[A.L.]

And I wonder if any of the characters have recognized this. Several have made note of the fact that Elizabeth and John have a close relationship, and I wonder if they realize that Elizabeth has been willing to let him die for the greater good on more than one occasion. (I'm not entirely convinced that John is. When he was threatened with Elizabeth's death in The Storm, he said he was going to blow up the city if she were killed. Might have been a bluff, but might not have been.)

I think it's important that others realize this, that others see that they're close to each other, but not blinded by friendship.

(And Vicky, I'll take a quiet thread over people fighting with each other or spamming the thread any day of the week. )

I agree. More proof that this ship can work as a full on reality in this show. In the end she always puts the greater number above the one. Sure she's come close a few times (at first tried to stop him in the Siege and her obvious distress during Coup) but in the end she has a responsibility. And they understand each other on that point. He's willing to risk his life for everyone else and she's willing to let him if it really comes down to it.

yet again, this leads back to a TLG fic idea I've got but we still ain't there yet.

AL

[A.L.]

Spoiler:

Okay, I haven't watch this in a while, but I seem to recall that John tried to insist that Elizabeth send more people back to the bug cave in order to help him. I was just thinking that I like this scene because we get to see John acting slightly out of character (i.e. asking her to risk more people on his behalf, when normally he'd be the one taking the risks).

True but

Spoiler:

he then immediately said, if you won't then kill me now. it's better for the both of us. I think it showed more of the struggle between himself and the creature he was becoming. He didn't want to suffer any more but he wanted to be saved but he didn't want others to die for him but the bug he was becoming was fighting to survive as well. I think it was the two sides of him fighting. And in the end I think John won out. Sure he attacked Elizabeth and the others but I don't think it was because he wanted to. I think he saw it as the only way to get through the gate so he could do it himself - which was kinda what he wanted from the beginning. Granted there was also the bug portion so by the time he got through the gate he wouldn't have been thinking about saving himself anymore but . . .

okay done rambling. I think there was just a lot of both sides going on there. I wrote a fic to that effect awhile ago.

AL

[Luz]

True but

Spoiler:

he then immediately said, if you won't then kill me now. it's better for the both of us. I think it showed more of the struggle between himself and the creature he was becoming. He didn't want to suffer any more but he wanted to be saved but he didn't want others to die for him but the bug he was becoming was fighting to survive as well. I think it was the two sides of him fighting. And in the end I think John won out. Sure he attacked Elizabeth and the others but I don't think it was because he wanted to. I think he saw it as the only way to get through the gate so he could do it himself - which was kinda what he wanted from the beginning. Granted there was also the bug portion so by the time he got through the gate he wouldn't have been thinking about saving himself anymore but . . .

okay done rambling. I think there was just a lot of both sides going on there. I wrote a fic to that effect awhile ago.

AL

Conversion

Spoiler:

I don't think Sheppard would've wanted more people to die so that they could find a cure for him. So i agree with what you're saying Admiral, i too believe that when he asked her to sned more people it was buggy!John talking.

EDIT: BB, i hadn't noticed your sig, it's gorgeous.

[Vicky]

Conversion

Spoiler:

I don't think Sheppard would've wanted more people to die so that they could find a cure for him. So i agree with what you're saying Admiral, i too believe that when he asked her to sned more people it was buggy!John talking.

EDIT: BB, i hadn't noticed your sig, it's gorgeous.

Conversion

Spoiler:

Yeah I agree with both of you two. The real Shep would never asked men to be send to their death to save them. He would have been willing to risk his life if it was to them somebody else in the expedition, but I really think he'd rather die than risk someone else's life. IMO, that's what makes him a good military leader.

[SallyLizzie]

I don't think it was bluff in The Storm. He really didn't want the City to fall into the Genii's hands. Elizabeth's life was at stake but I still think Atlantis was more important to him. When he started killing all these men after Kolya told him she was dead, it was partly to take revenge on Elizabeth's death but I think it was also to honour her 'cos he knew she wanted the City to be safe more than anything.

Just from a strategic POV, it makes sense to take out all those men. Atlantis has to be retrieved and saved; it's the only way back to Earth. Given the numbers, there is no way the city could be taken back without taking lives. Although, while before Sheppard may have done so with as little casualties as possible, I think the Elizabeth's 'murder' made it that more excusable and gave him the anger to plough ahead. It took away the worry over the implications his actions had for Elizabeth (and Rodney).

Spoiler:

As long as he was alive, even if he was suffering, there was a chance for them to find a cure. I do think that if it had come to the point where they knew he was beyond hope, she would have given the order to end it.

I think we came very close to that and she knows it. [Conversion]

Spoiler:

At the end Carson tells her if they don't find a cure within 'X' ammount of time that what's left of John Sheppard will be gone forever, and even though the plan may not work, he'd be willing to give him one more shot of lucidity. She agrees. And when we next see her with him, she's joking and treating him as usual. Perhaps this was her way of saying goodbye, with their possible last interaction less about BugShep and more how their friendship usually is - jokey, flirty and friendly.

[SallyLizzie]

And I wonder if any of the characters have recognized this. Several have made note of the fact that Elizabeth and John have a close relationship, and I wonder if they realize that Elizabeth has been willing to let him die for the greater good on more than one occasion. (I'm not entirely convinced that John is. When he was threatened with Elizabeth's death in The Storm, he said he was going to blow up the city if she were killed. Might have been a bluff, but might not have been.)

I think it's important that others realize this, that others see that they're close to each other, but not blinded by friendship.

I think that response - and us not evidencing John willingly sacrificing Elizabeth - has less to do with any feelings he has for her, and more to do with John's character. I'm thinking back to Afghanistan, and how he seems rather a self-sacrifing person.

Also, I think it's more important that Elizabeth is seen to be willing to move past her feelings and continue with the mission at whatever cost bc I expect that if their relationship was to come under scrutiny, Elizabeth would be scrutinised more as she is the leader. Whilst John's position as military adviser could be revised, it's likely he would be kept on Atlantis in some sort of position due to his fluency with the ATA-gene.

I'd say that Carson and Rodney are a safe bet, with more money going on Rodney judging his reaction in TLG.

I'd like to say Caldwell sees it to a degree, at least more than he originally did, tho I'd need to rewatch S2 before saying for definate.

[Vixen]

True but

Spoiler:

he then immediately said, if you won't then kill me now. it's better for the both of us. I think it showed more of the struggle between himself and the creature he was becoming. He didn't want to suffer any more but he wanted to be saved but he didn't want others to die for him but the bug he was becoming was fighting to survive as well. I think it was the two sides of him fighting. And in the end I think John won out. Sure he attacked Elizabeth and the others but I don't think it was because he wanted to. I think he saw it as the only way to get through the gate so he could do it himself - which was kinda what he wanted from the beginning. Granted there was also the bug portion so by the time he got through the gate he wouldn't have been thinking about saving himself anymore but . . .

okay done rambling. I think there was just a lot of both sides going on there. I wrote a fic to that effect awhile ago.

AL

Conversion

Spoiler:

Yeah, he did have that constant struggle going on inside him between the human and more primitive/beasty side. You could see that from as early as when he attacked Teyla. After he pulls away (and so quickly) and describes the experience as interesting, he then shows this sudden worry over her and whether she's okay. Later in the Infirmary when he comments on Elizabeth's terrible bed-side manners, he adds in the end that he appreciates the effort. It was almost appologetic, in a way, or an assurance. Then we have the "meeting" in Elizabeth's office, the scenes in John's room when he slams her against the wall, at the cave when he goes along with the plan to get the eggs but then tries to run away, and so on.... I'll give props to JF for this episode. He really did a wonderful job in showing what was going on inside him, and how it affected his behavior.

[Major_Moomin]

I think that response - and us not evidencing John willingly sacrificing Elizabeth - has less to do with any feelings he has for her, and more to do with John's character. I'm thinking back to Afghanistan, and how he seems rather a self-sacrifing person.

And that he takes her safety ,and that of his team, very personally. He sees it at his own personal responsibility. Judging by his response to Elizabeth's 'death' in The Storm. He believed he had failed her, and himself, for letting it happen.

Also, I think it's more important that Elizabeth is seen to be willing to move past her feelings and continue with the mission at whatever cost bc I expect that if their relationship was to come under scrutiny, Elizabeth would be scrutinised more as she is the leader. Whilst John's position as military adviser could be revised, it's likely he would be kept on Atlantis in some sort of position due to his fluency with the ATA-gene.

Your right. If she were to come under question, higher powers would certain deem her as expendable and would probably be taken off the program completely. Or at the very least, she would work at the SGC...though, thinking about it, I don't know what she would do there.

I'd say that Carson and Rodney are a safe bet, with more money going on Rodney judging his reaction in TLG.

I'd like to say Caldwell sees it to a degree, at least more than he originally did, tho I'd need to rewatch S2 before saying for definate.

I think he's a very calculating man...but I think, at the end of the day, his intentions are good. [Conversion]

Spoiler:

I think the scene in his office when he said to Elizabeth that they seemed close, that to him, was more of a recognition of what she was sacrificing herself. He recognised that although they are close, she was willing to carry on maintaining that professionalism while under the strain of the situation.

[Melyanna]

Conversion

Spoiler:

Yeah I agree with both of you two. The real Shep would never asked men to be send to their death to save them. He would have been willing to risk his life if it was to them somebody else in the expedition, but I really think he'd rather die than risk someone else's life. IMO, that's what makes him a good military leader.

There's an idea of leadership that's come up a few times in this thread, that the mark of good leadership is being willing to send others to their deaths for the greater good. The famous Robert E. Lee quote is "To be a good soldier you must love the army; to be a good commander you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love." The movie U-571, while horrendously inaccurate in all things historical and military, expressed a similar sentiment. Near the beginning of the movie, the CO tells his second-in-command that a good executive officer leads the death charge. A good commanding officer has to order it.

This is partly because the commander has to be around if the idea doesn't work. He has to be around to come up with the next idea. And I think this is a lot more difficult than actually going on the suicide mission. Not that a suicide mission would be easy, but living on with the knowledge that you gave an order that you knew would lead to the deaths of your own men would be comparable to what John had to do in Rising. I don't think Elizabeth understood that then, but she probably does now. They both have to live with the decisions they've made. But I'm not sure John has reached the point where he'll give the order, knowing that those men aren't coming back.

As for Conversion itself,

Spoiler:

I do agree that John, in his right mind, would probably never try to force Elizabeth to risk others' lives for his.

But at some point I think he does have to learn how to give that command instead of doing it himself.