Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[hopalong]

Time for Conversion, perhaps?

Spoiler:

Remember last summer, when we were all terrified of this episode? And then it turned out to be amazingly positive for Shep/Weir. Almost from beginning to end, it was a verification of what we'd been saying here for a while: that John and Elizabeth are incredibly important to each other, but when the safety of everyone else is on the line, they're willing to let that go.

What I was struck by was that

Spoiler:

through all the changes that the virus thingamie was making in him, he only seemed to be able to control his aggression when he was with Elizabeth.

Sure, he jumped Teyla. But that was purely instinctual, and had it been Elizabeth there with him, we would have had the same response (giving us a moment like the 'Broca Divide' one for the Sam/Jack shippers). But I think if it had been Elizabeth it would not have been as harsh.

I think his attack on Teyla was part of what had him so controlling himself with Elizabeth as the changes took hold. Remember, what he did to Teyla was one of the first real signs that he was changing. He was lucid enough to be horrified at the way he treated someone he cared about as a friend. As he gradually lost his control, he clung to the notion that he could not hurt Elizabeth like that. Even when he lashed out at everyone else, he still had that tenuous control with her.

[xfkirsten]

I loved Conversion because

Spoiler:

it really shows the depth of how much they care for each other. Though he was aggressive and changing and all, Elizabeth stood by him the whole time. She was clearly scared (the shaky breathing when she left his quarters the first time really shows how much) but she still stood by him. Quite literally, too - after he tried to choke her, she still walked next to him to the Stargate. THAT is what I love about their relationship in this episode. In sickness and in health?

[atlantis_babe34]

lol!

Spoiler:

i Just loved the episode.. such a contrast between them, came out more with the whole i can't choke you.. cus i love u.. just kidding but about the whole "pin u up to a wall with my hand around your throat" thing.. and yet she still stood by him.. he had to know what he was doing otherwise why did he stop?

[Major_Moomin]

Time for Conversion, perhaps?

Spoiler:

Remember last summer, when we were all terrified of this episode? And then it turned out to be amazingly positive for Shep/Weir. Almost from beginning to end, it was a verification of what we'd been saying here for a while: that John and Elizabeth are incredibly important to each other, but when the safety of everyone else is on the line, they're willing to let that go.

The good thing for me is that

Spoiler:

if I'm nervous about a particular ep I can read about it before it airs here since it airs in the U.S and Canada first. It was the same for Conversion. I was worried about what was going to happen and in the end, I had a lovely few months knowing that it wasn't going to be that bad afterall.

I found it very poigant that Elizabeth was willing to let John's condition worsen to avoid putting more personnel in danger, even though we know it hurt her to do so. She was willing to say goodbye even when he was telling her to try again. It proves that when a situation is as personal as it was then she can rise above it and do what is needed to be done for the expedition. And that John can accept it and know that they can trust each other enough to do the right thing. I actually think this makes their friendship even more solid, the fact that they can both keep a clear head, ignoring their own importance to each other.

[Vicky]

Yeah I remember I was afraid of that ep before I saw it and of course of the

Spoiler:

Shep/Teyla kiss, but two minutes after they kissed, I've forgotten it. What struck me in that ep is Elizabeth's trust in John. She knew that being alone in the same room with him could be dangerous, but she went willingly. She stayed by his side from the beginning, she was never afraid of him, even after he attacked her. She just knew it wasn't him. That's what I love about them, they stood by each other, no matter what. And I love that scene in the infirmary when Beckett told Caldwell and Elizabeth that the Sheppard they knew would soon disappear; we saw Shep's face in the foreground and them in the background, worrying about him.

[Southern Red]

Ooo, Conversion. My favorite of S2.

Spoiler:

It's funny now how worried I was about this one. *kicks TV Guide* Thinking back on how they all hyped the kiss by saying that the Shep/Teyla relationship would change shows that we have to look at all possibilities behind what they tell us. It did change but not the way we expected. This was just a Sparky extravaganza. He had no hesitation to hurt everyone else, but even as far gone as he was near the end was able to control his strength and not hurt Liz. He just wanted to scare her enough to get her to realize how bad it was and either kill him or work harder to help him. The "it's better for both of us" line and the line about "protocol" still haven't been explained properly. Insisting that there's nothing shippy going on has become ridiculous. Liz showed all through this that even though she will stand by him no matter what, she still won't save him if it endangers the others. Proof to me that their relationship can work within their roles as leaders. The infirmary scenes had such a "married" vibe it was impossible to ignore how close they have become.

And now I'm going to step on Sally's toes and rec a fic. I know you won't believe it's me actually doing this, but it's Sheyla/Sparky. UST only, but still. This author has the best handle on both these pairings I have ever seen. At last a truly balanced look at the possibilites of both. She even gets the analysis of LTP correct. Try it. http://irony-rocks.livejournal.com/9492.html

[FoolishPleasure]

I liked the phrase where he wants Elizabeth to kill him. . "its best for the BOTH of us." Interesting comment. Plus we have Caldwell saying, "You two are pretty close, aren't you".

BTW. .for those who watch CSI - Las Vegas. Last night THE big ship question was settled. Grissom made his pick and. . *drum roll* it was NOT the originally intended, hinted at "ship" from the first couple of years. Gee whiz, TPTB DO change their minds sometime, don't they.

[Major_Moomin]

I liked the phrase where he wants Elizabeth to kill him. . "its best for the BOTH of us." Interesting comment. Plus we have Caldwell saying, "You two are pretty close, aren't you".

BTW. .for those who watch CSI - Las Vegas. Last night THE big ship question was settled. Grissom made his pick and. . *drum roll* it was NOT the originally intended, hinted at "ship" from the first couple of years. Gee whiz, TPTB DO change their minds sometime, don't they.

The comment from Caldwell went down pretty well with me. He's made that observation. Whether he's had to really look to see it or it's right in front of him, it doesn't change the fact that he saw it. Even Rodney sees it, which is saying something since he's not known to be well tuned to other people feelings. If he didn't see their closeness, he wouldn't have used John as a means to get Elizabeth to agree to his experiment in Trinity.

And CSI...I thought it was the intended ship from the beginning.

And now I'm going to step on Sally's toes and rec a fic. I know you won't believe it's me actually doing this, but it's Sheyla/Sparky. UST only, but still. This author has the best handle on both these pairings I have ever seen. At last a truly balanced look at the possibilites of both. She even gets the analysis of LTP correct. Try it. http://irony-rocks.livejournal.com/9492.html

Thanks for that. I think I saw it before hand but didn't read it. I'm glad I did now.

[ra-hanna]

I liked the phrase where he wants Elizabeth to kill him. . "its best for the BOTH of us." Interesting comment. Plus we have Caldwell saying, "You two are pretty close, aren't you".

BTW. .for those who watch CSI - Las Vegas. Last night THE big ship question was settled. Grissom made his pick and. . *drum roll* it was NOT the originally intended, hinted at "ship" from the first couple of years. Gee whiz, TPTB DO change their minds sometime, don't they.

I guess I visited the wrong thread last night. After spending 10 mins. in shock from the CSI ending (I looked something like this-----> ) I finally got online to see what people were saying about it but I'm assuming the forums were overloaded cause I couldn't even get pages to come up. So I came to gateworld and jumped on the McKay thunk thread to try and calm down before I went to bed. I have to say. CSI did it right. It wasn't too mushy. It wasn't like all the years with Jack and Sam with the pink elephant in the room that no one admits to seeing. It was "Yes, we can tell she likes him. Yes we know he's afraid of diving into a relationship with her. There are nice subtle looks but its kept professional." (Yes, J and S did that to but it didn't feel the same as CSI) And then BAM! just when you don't expect it! And it's still left open. I mean, come on, how many times have you seen something spectacular happen on a show where TPTB make you believe they gave into what the fans want only to find out next episode it was nothing but a dream sequence. Which in a sence is good. The shippers who are for that ship get a moment of happiness and look at what there could be and someones true feelings, but then those who are anti ship get theres too cause they can keep reminding themselves "it was only a dream." Okay....now to get back to the real topic at hand. See Stargate Powers That Be - Ship can be done where everyone is happy and can still be within the context of the show. There's action! and Drama! Death! and Gore! and there's still shipper satisfaction. I just wish it would have been addressed a little better with Jack and Sam from SG1. Well, atleast I got my CSI ship!happy. Now for Atlantis....

[Luz]

Ooo, Conversion. My favorite of S2.

Spoiler:

It's funny now how worried I was about this one. *kicks TV Guide* Thinking back on how they all hyped the kiss by saying that the Shep/Teyla relationship would change shows that we have to look at all possibilities behind what they tell us. It did change but not the way we expected. This was just a Sparky extravaganza. He had no hesitation to hurt everyone else, but even as far gone as he was near the end was able to control his strength and not hurt Liz. He just wanted to scare her enough to get her to realize how bad it was and either kill him or work harder to help him. The "it's better for both of us" line and the line about "protocol" still haven't been explained properly. Insisting that there's nothing shippy going on has become ridiculous. Liz showed all through this that even though she will stand by him no matter what, she still won't save him if it endangers the others. Proof to me that their relationship can work within their roles as leaders. The infirmary scenes had such a "married" vibe it was impossible to ignore how close they have become.

Spoiler:

I felt all through Conversion that Beckett treated and talked to Elizabeth, like she was John's next of kin, the wife. This was such a good episode for sparky, showcasing their closeness, showing such instensity in Sheppard's reactions to Elizabeth.
My favorite part was when Elizabeth went to visit him when he was already turning blue, and he tells her to double the detail.
It seemed to me like he was scaring her on purpose, trying to show her how dangerous he was becoming, a bit of though love for her own good.
And the 'protocol' line, it spoke of many conversations, wonder how many times Elizabeth has put John in his place, or denied him something because of protocol. "that's your answer for evertyhing", uhmmm, let me think, how many times has Elizabeth brought in the protocol?, i can't really think of that many, so are we then to assume that many of those 'protocol' conversations happened off-screen?.

[SallyLizzie]

The comment from Caldwell went down pretty well with me. He's made that observation. Whether he's had to really look to see it or it's right in front of him, it doesn't change the fact that he saw it. Even Rodney sees it, which is saying something since he's not known to be well tuned to other people feelings. If he didn't see their closeness, he wouldn't have used John as a means to get Elizabeth to agree to his experiment in Trinity.

The scene between Weir and Caldwell is one of my favourites in Conversion,

Spoiler:

not only bc of him seeing enough in his limited time around them to ask that question, but more so bc of the way in which she replies. Then there's her response to his "If you need someone to talk to...", with her basically cutting him off. Note: they should have much to talk about regarding Sheppard's condition from a planning POV but this was asked directly after they'd established she and John were close. A few reasons that stand out to me as why she cut him off were bc she didn't trust him to not using that knowledge to his advantage, and bc she just wasn't ready/didn't want to talk about it with anyone.

I've just skimmed Conversion and one of the things that I only just thought of was how,

Spoiler:

when Bug!Shep has Elizabeth by the throat, she still refuses to send more men (to retrive the eggs). Obviously rational thought goes out the window when someone has you by the throat, but perhaps it would have made more sense to bluff and agree, then to have him stunned and sedated until another answer could be found. I like that she respected him enough not to BS him tho, even when he wasn't quite himself.

Then you have her issuing the soldiers to "only use such force as a last resort." This comes after "It would be better for the both of us" and with them still not having a cure, so maybe she still sees enough of John in Bug!Shep to have faith in him, and has enough faith in her expedition to find a cure before it's too late.

Funny you should mention Trinity. I was reading notes from the season 2 commentary (found here) and came across this bit of trivia:

Spoiler:

Joe Flanigan didn’t like the argument in Weir’s office where Sheppard sided with Caldwell instead of with Weir like he usually does. Martin explained that Sheppard had to side with Caldwell because McKay had entrusted him (Sheppard) with the job of persuading Weir to let them go back.

Another amusing (to me anyway ) piece of trivia for Conversion from the commentaries is:

Spoiler:

Martin says that it’s basically his job not to spend more money on the episodes than he has to, and they were about to spend thousands of dollars on the bug-in-cave sequence, so he had Sheppard getting angry and sweeping stuff off Weir’s desk. He continues, “Everyone was like, ‘That’s so lame!’ and Rob was like, ‘Just break the window!’ and I was like, ‘Alright, Executive Producer Cooper, we’ll break the window!’”

Given how BugShep acted all on animal instincts earlier, anyone else see sweeping the desk followed by desk!sex?

Noticable lines from Conversion include:

Spoiler:

"It's only protocol."
"That's your answer for everything."

A simple throwaway line that could mean so much more *lalala*

"Our team got back from the mission."

This stands out for me bc I'd expect to hear "You're team" but using 'our' - whether intentially or not - shows the connection (?) between them.

[Melyanna]

The good thing for me is that

Spoiler:

if I'm nervous about a particular ep I can read about it before it airs here since it airs in the U.S and Canada first. It was the same for Conversion. I was worried about what was going to happen and in the end, I had a lovely few months knowing that it wasn't going to be that bad afterall.

Heheheh. For as much as I was reassuring everyone here that there were no indicators that the... event was leading anywhere, I was incredibly nervous about it. Then a scheduling fluke meant I wasn't home to see it, which was kind of a relief. I got Athena's reaction to the episode before actually watching it.

Spoiler:

I found it very poigant that Elizabeth was willing to let John's condition worsen to avoid putting more personnel in danger, even though we know it hurt her to do so. She was willing to say goodbye even when he was telling her to try again. It proves that when a situation is as personal as it was then she can rise above it and do what is needed to be done for the expedition. And that John can accept it and know that they can trust each other enough to do the right thing. I actually think this makes their friendship even more solid, the fact that they can both keep a clear head, ignoring their own importance to each other.

What gets me about the second bedroom scene is

Spoiler:

that John is losing control, but he still doesn't hurt her. He's got her pinned to the wall, yes, but he's not choking her. She can still speak, and he doesn't leave a mark on her. I think it was the last shred of his humanity that was in control then, knowing this was Elizabeth and he could never hurt her. And it didn't really scare her that much. She was still telling him no, but she still stood by him – literally – when none of his teammates would.

Then there's "It's better for both of us." I can't help but think that this line is supposed to parallel Elizabeth's admission to Caldwell that she and John are close. Only this time it's John telling Elizabeth herself that he recognizes how important they are to each other. I think he's a lot less clueless about such things than some would believe.

[SallyLizzie]

Spoiler:

It seemed to me like he was scaring her on purpose, trying to show her how dangerous he was becoming, a bit of though love for her own good.

Spoiler:

Tho I don't recall seeing one instance when she did appear afraid of him. Even after his change in appearance, smashing her window, yelling at her, choking her, taking out his security detail and other soldiers... she still stands by him and treats him like she would any other time.

[Luz]

What gets me about the second bedroom scene is

Spoiler:

Then there's "It's better for both of us." I can't help but think that this line is supposed to parallel Elizabeth's admission to Caldwell that she and John are close. Only this time it's John telling Elizabeth herself that he recognizes how important they are to each other. I think he's a lot less clueless about such things than some would believe.

Spoiler:

YAY! He told her it was the best for "the both of us", not Atlantis, not everyone, but us .

[Lizlove]

Eum... sorry to intrude here but I may have a few new icons *my first Sparky ones*!!!
Hope you like them

*runs off *