Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Kazan]

3) How smart is Sheppard, really? Seriously, though, Joe Flanigan’s acting never fails to astound me in this episode. Something we see over and over through the course of the season begins in Sheppard’s very first scenes: when faced with the unfamiliar, he grabs what he knows and anchors himself there. With the Athosians, he does his best to play by their rules. When he’s back on Atlantis and wants to send the rescue mission, he locks onto the fact that they can figure out the planet’s address, pushing Rodney’s patronizing right back in his face. Then in the first balcony scene, what he locks onto is what got him into trouble in the first place: he doesn’t leave people behind.

Smart can be defined in so many different ways and not just in the intellectual way.
His natural and disarming manner with the Athosians is far more clever than Sumners approach. Sheppard instinctively knows how to deal with these people, how to relate to them and how to start to gain their trust. He sees them for the honourable traders with their sense of values (only dealing with friends etc) and just has the right way of talking / interacting with them in order to break the ice. Note how Sumner has almost immediately written them off as being primitive and having no valuable use for intelligence. Sheppard however, manages to break down barriers and learn information. It may well be instinctive and natural but he is pretty "smart" in the way he deals with them.
And of course we get a hint of the intelligence, math genius in him when hes discussing the gate co-ordinates with Rodney. I thought that was a very clever point at which to throw that in. Up til then his character had been about the gene and his military side. To throw that in at that point I think was designed to make us stop and rethink any perceptions we were forming of the character - it was like hang on, there is more to him that I'm thinking.
This is of course immediately followed by the Weir / Sheppard balcony scene which gives us the first real look at their interaction together one to one.

4) One of Sheppard’s most intriguing moments in the episode is when he tells Elizabeth “this is what you brought me for.” Was he even in one of Sumner’s teams, or was he really just there to be Gene Boy? What kind of effect would this have on his attitude toward both Sumner and Weir?

I honestly believe that from Weir there was more to it than that, maybe not initially but at some early point. Of course, she wants him to be on the expedition because he carries the ATA gene. But notice when shes talking to O'Niell she recognises that with Sheppard its completely natural for him to operate the chair where others have to struggle to make it work. OK so it may be sub concious but I really think she senses something else, something of the man himself, something different about him. Also, shes read his file and knows of his background and disobeying of an order. Given that at that stage she herself is still perhaps a little wary of the military influences, I also believe she senses that she can relate to and perhaps deal with Sheppard in a way she can't with the die hard, traditional military stance of Sumner.

From Sheppards POV, initially I believe he totally only thinks hes around because he has the ATA gene. His attitude to Sumner is to a large degree driven by the fact that he knows Weir wants him around for that. The exchange between him and Sumner about whose in charge of the expedition and the "that'll be Dr Weir right?" comment, says it all really.

His attitude with Weir is altogether more complex. At the outset sure he thinks he's only there to be "gene boy", but as things unfold and certainly during and after the balcony discussion, I believe he starts to sense something more from her and as a result he changes in his attitude. For a start he's moved into leadership mode - he's become ranking military officer and lost that flippancy that he had the luxury of before. He now has the focus to get his people back safe and to protect the rest. But I think their debate also brings home to him that she has the same goal, even if her approach is different. Its interesting but during what is quite a heated debate, the tone of their relationship seems to mellow - she calls him John for the first time, and metophorically there is the seeing each others point of view - its a sort of coming together point. By the end, when he is troubled by his actions and killing of Sumner, it is Weir who reassures him and gets him to refocus on the future and what they need to do together. He watches and stares at her quite instensely during some of the exchanges they have and I think he recognises that they share a kindred spirit. Certainly by that point, he knows that she values him much more than as just being someone carrying the gene. Shes basically asking him to help her with the expedition and thats a big thing for him.

[Oma-1]

1) What strikes me most in “Rising”, so soon after seeing “The Siege Part II”, is the vast difference between our intrepid heroes at the beginning and what they become over the course of the season. Major Fischer has been pushing me to write something along these lines, but as I’m pushing plot bunnies away as fast as I can, I’ll pose this question to you: what do you think Elizabeth from “Rising” (or even “Lost City”/“New Order”, for those who watch SG-1 as well) would say about her own actions later in the season, such as authorizing experimentation on a prisoner, or negotiating for nuclear weapons?

Initially, I didn't see why Elizabeth had been put in charge of the SGC - I thought she was too diffident, and I couldn't see her as an authority figure cos I didn't think she'd react quickly enough. Her confusion and hesitancy at the beginning didn't endear me to her character. Heading up negotiations is very different to leading a military unit. But then, she did for Kinsey and shot way up there in my estimation, and the way she handled the Goa'ulds in New Order was great. She wasn't afraid to call their bluff and push them into a corner. She showed the qualities that made her a good choice for command of the Atlantis expedition. Since Atlantis began, I don't think her character has changed per se, more that she has become more confident in herself and her leadership abilities, as well as more confident with the team she leads. Even the tough decisions she has made have been consistent in defending the team and the city. Although there's no doubting she couldn't have expected to have to make them beforehand, and they were extremely difficult for her. But I think she has stayed true to her initial character, and her development has been really well written.

3) How smart is Sheppard, really?

Really smart. I don't think we needed the Mensa info to get that. He's quick, thinks on his feet, uses a combination of intelligence and intuition. That shows me smart and confident, as well as ballsy

4) One of Sheppard’s most intriguing moments in the episode is when he tells Elizabeth “this is what you brought me for.” Was he even in one of Sumner’s teams, or was he really just there to be Gene Boy? What kind of effect would this have on his attitude toward both Sumner and Weir?

This is interesting. If he hadn't had the gene, would he still have been included? I think not cos of Sumner's disapproval. But he has the gene, so we get to drool I think his lack of respect for military chain of command was one of the reasons he gets on well with Weir. It shows his smarts too cos he thinks out of the box. He doesn't follow blindly, he uses his initiative. Going into such an uncertain mission, this can only be good from Elizabeth's pov.

6) Was waking the Wraith actually Sheppard’s fault, or did his killing the Keeper merely hasten events that would have taken place once the Wraith knew of Earth?

I think he only speeded it up. We know from Before I Sleep that the Wraith were mortal enemies of the Ancients.The Wraith would have figured out they were on Atlantis eventually, and then all hell would have broken loose anyway. The Wraith would not have let the chance slip by them to try to take Atlantis. Then it would only have been a matter of time before they learned of Earth.

Hopefully that’ll be enough to spark some good conversation.

I don't know if you'd call my conversation good, but it sparked something

[Melyanna]

Hate to interrupt all the good discussion, but Stargate-Project has pictures of Siege III, including one beautiful one of Elizabeth and a handful of John. Naturally there are spoilers.

Stargate-Project pictures

EDIT: They're also available in high-res at New Atlantis.

[Merlin7]

Hate to interrupt all the good discussion, but Stargate-Project has pictures of Siege III, including one beautiful one of Elizabeth and a handful of John. Naturally there are spoilers.

Stargate-Project pictures

EDIT: They're also available in high-res at New Atlantis.

Thanks for the heads up. John and Weir look beautiful. I'm thrilled yet disappointed.

[aaobuttons]

Thanks for the links, those were great!

[LurkerLa]

Not adding anything to the discussion here, because despite much sleep, brain still not functioning properly. Plus, I don't always do analysis so well, so I'm appreciating what everyone else is saying (and saying so well) because it's better than I can do. I especially like what y'all have been saying about Elizabeth from "Rising" and Elizabeth towards the end of the season - food for thought for me!

Just wanted to make note of two things - one: I loved rewatching "Rising" because it just thrills my shippy little heart to see the beginning again, especially in light of the rest of the season. And two: Thank goodness for all of you who can analyze the episodes, because without the reairing of the episodes and your discussion here, I have no idea how I'd make it to July without going crazy (and terrifying my friends who don't watch sci-fi and can't understand why I spend so much time online talking about it)!

[Kazan]

Hate to interrupt all the good discussion, but Stargate-Project has pictures of Siege III, including one beautiful one of Elizabeth and a handful of John. Naturally there are spoilers.

Stargate-Project pictures

EDIT: They're also available in high-res at New Atlantis.

Thanks for the links Mel
Merlin is right - they both look fantastic although is it me or does Elizabeth look quite haunted - almost angsty?

[Melyanna]

Thanks for the links Mel
Merlin is right - they both look fantastic although is it me or does Elizabeth look quite haunted - almost angsty?

Well, if you ask me, she looks like she's about to pass out. I'm also quite curious about what's going on in the picture, as she seems to be in the infirmary.

*sigh* Three months...

[ohshocking]

Well, if you ask me, she looks like she's about to pass out. I'm also quite curious about what's going on in the picture, as she seems to be in the infirmary.

*sigh* Three months...

It looks as though she might be staring into the infirmary, worried about someone... Although,

Spoiler:

given the pics of Sheppard, it's unlikely to be him Or, she does look quite calm, maybe it's all over... or she is haunted, as she doesn't have any idea what's happened to Sheppard yet, or, she is about to pass out from sheer exhaustion, but is keeping watch over an injured comrade, or...

Yeah, I need to stop speculating!

[Kazan]

Well, if you ask me, she looks like she's about to pass out. I'm also quite curious about what's going on in the picture, as she seems to be in the infirmary.

*sigh* Three months...

Hmmm - does look like the infirmary.
She just looks........drained, lost even as she has nothing left emotionally or physically.

Oh roll on July!!!

[LurkerLa]

Hmmm - does look like the infirmary.
She just looks........drained, lost even as she has nothing left emotionally or physically.

Oh roll on July!!!

She does look drained. She doesn't seem particularly worried to me - her posture is a bit too relaxed for that, but from her face she does look completely exhausted.

Do you think if I switch all my computer and home calendars to July, it will get here faster?

Ooh... 50 posts - and in just over a week of being here! No wonder my thesis is languishing untouched on my flash drive.

[Kazan]

5) Torri Higginson said in an interview a few months ago that Elizabeth knew going into it that she and Sheppard would eventually end up butting heads over something, but that Elizabeth knew that his motives were good, and that’s where they could find common ground. How true is this? How well did Elizabeth and John get each other here at the beginning?

I think I remember that - didn't she say something about thinking he had a good heart?
Anyway, I think Elizabeth saw / sensed something in John quite early on and even if it were more intuitive than concrete, she felt he was a good man with good values - something that she relates to. As a diplomat, I am sure she has a great ability to quickly and accurately sum up and understand the character traits of individuals. Also, she knew about his background and the fact that he had disobeyed an order but that he was doing so to try and save others lives. I think she respected and admired that sense of loyalty and bravery - all qualities she would have been looking for in her team. With that knowledge she would also have recognised that if he were prepared to stand up for his beliefs then, chances are he'd at some point do it again so I can see why TH says Elizabeth knew they may butt heads at some point.
By the time the end of Rising comes around, I think she has some semblance of understanding him much more. She’s seen that far from being just a flippant fly boy, he’s an extremely capable military man but one who is passionate about his people but has a strong heart and a strong sense of conscience. At the end, he is really cut up and quiet about what he "has to live with" (Sumners death) and really is in no mood for celebration. By that time however, she’s basically asking him to run the expedition alongside her - I think that’s a massive vote of confidence.

For Sheppard, at least initially I don’t think he engages with her on a personal level. I can see him having a great sense of respect for her and her position but his interaction with her throughout ‘Rising’ is quite professional. Only at the end do I sense that there is more from him in terms of understanding her. When she has tried to reassure him of his actions and to thank him, its like he sees her as something more than the boss and he starts to see that she really cares too and she is asking for his help. I think its a strange situation for him – he suddenly is ranking military officer but has a boss who is not military and therefore actively solicits his thoughts and views, rather than expecting absolute control. By the end of Rising I think he is comfortable with her as an individual but not yet enough to let his guard down and I don’t yet think he fully appreciates or “gets” her character just yet. I think he has a sense of a strong bond with her but I don’t think be understands it or can process it yet. It takes a long time in S1 before he even calls her Elizabeth and I think its only in later episodes that you feel he has started to come to terms with their unique relationship and the unspoken bond they seem to have.

6) Was waking the Wraith actually Sheppard’s fault, or did his killing the Keeper merely hasten events that would have taken place once the Wraith knew of Earth?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if we all knew the consequences of our actions when we took those actions I am sure we may make different decisions at times. But having said that we cannot second guess nor over analyse ourselves. What makes us human is that we are fallible, we make mistakes and errors of judgment at times and what I believe sets us apart is how we cope with the consequences and learn from our mistakes.
Sheppard took what action he felt was the only thing open to him at the time - to save the suffering of Sumner. Did he know what the long term outcome would be? No.
So was he at fault? You certainly could argue that what is happening is as a direct result of his actions and so say there is "fault" to apportion, but he did what he thought was best at the time. So despite the fact that he has undoubtably hastened events, I personally can't find fault in him for what he did.

[Kazan]

Do you think if I switch all my computer and home calendars to July, it will get here faster?

Ooh... 50 posts - and in just over a week of being here! No wonder my thesis is languishing untouched on my flash drive.

LOL - Don't think it works that way La but its a nice thought!!!

[Oma-1]

I've just read a ff that kinda touches on how Shep & Elizabeth see each other early on in the series - the island bit at the end is pretty insightful. The rest is lovely ship Here's the link http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2016378/1/

[emily_reich]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if we all knew the consequences of our actions when we took those actions I am sure we may make different decisions at times. But having said that we cannot second guess nor over analyse ourselves. What makes us human is that we are fallible, we make mistakes and errors of judgment at times and what I believe sets us apart is how we cope with the consequences and learn from our mistakes.
Sheppard took what action he felt was the only thing open to him at the time - to save the suffering of Sumner. Did he know what the long term outcome would be? No.
So was he at fault? You certainly could argue that what is happening is as a direct result of his actions and so say there is "fault" to apportion, but he did what he thought was best at the time. So despite the fact that he has undoubtably hastened events, I personally can't find fault in him for what he did.

first off: brilliant points!! on all your analyses...

now, if ya don't mind me adding on here a bit... i definately agree that you can't fault shep for waking up the wraith, or even really for killing sumner (not anymore than you can find fault in sam for killing martouf... same deal of killing someone to save them... both times people basically wanting to die to end what was happening)... and i certainly don't think any other characters blame sheppard for waking the wraith either... they know he couldn't possibly have seen that coming in killing that one wraith. however, i do think sheppard blames HIMSELF for waking up the wraith... you really see later in the season how much he seems to want to make up for it somehow, and i can't say for sure he even realizes that people don't blame him for it

i always thought that when weir tells him at the end of the episode that they don't blame him for killing sumner and it was the right thing to do under the circumstances, i think she was silently also trying to reassure him that they don't blame him about the wraith either (her attitude seemed to say this), though i WISH that at some point she'd come out and just say "we don't blame you for waking up the wraith. you couldn't have known" or something of the like to ease at least some of the guilt that he feels (i mean, he STILL feels guilty over killing sumner and she DID say something about that), but unfortunately i don't see it happening soon. but a girl can hope, right??