Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Blue Banrigh]

Yeah, I think my first reaction to that scene at the end was "Eh?" I thought it was cute, but I also thought it came out of nowhere. That's part of the reason I think it might have been produced later. Of course, I'd also like to know how much time had elapsed between Rising and this one.

And yes, FP, this was Major Fischer's idea, but I couldn't remember if it was she or I who proposed it in this thread. So I called it our crazy theory.

Looking at the scene again, maybe it stands out because none of them are in uniform. I've always wondered where Weir and the others were going after visiting Sheppard.

[John_Sheppard]

Sounds like you'd get on well with Astro, our resident angst-shipper.

And I like how you used that icon of mine in your sig image.

Angst-shipper? I dunno ...!

I used your icon??? Seriously? Cool, which one is it!

I finally saw "The Storm" as well, he got really ticked off at the end, I think I can preety much see this relationship being the main one.

[Melyanna]

Angst-shipper? I dunno ...!

I used your icon??? Seriously? Cool, which one is it!

I finally saw "The Storm" as well, he got really ticked off at the end, I think I can preety much see this relationship being the main one.

"Exercise caution when wet" is mine. The other one is Athena's, I believe.

[Melyanna]

Well, everyone, Rising has aired in its entirety, so it's time to kick off the episode discussion. Some of these are phrased as questions, and others are just my ramblings on various points of the episode. Feel free to respond at will. Also, as this is a post-season discussion, feel free to reference other episodes in the discussion. This is an incredibly dynamic season, so it won’t surprise me at all if a question I pose for “Rising” is answered with “The Siege Part II”.

1) What strikes me most in “Rising”, so soon after seeing “The Siege Part II”, is the vast difference between our intrepid heroes at the beginning and what they become over the course of the season. Major Fischer has been pushing me to write something along these lines, but as I’m pushing plot bunnies away as fast as I can, I’ll pose this question to you: what do you think Elizabeth from “Rising” (or even “Lost City”/“New Order”, for those who watch SG-1 as well) would say about her own actions later in the season, such as authorizing experimentation on a prisoner, or negotiating for nuclear weapons?

2) Robert E. Lee once said that “to be a good soldier, you must love the army. To be a good commander, you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love.” On a similar note, there’s a scene in the movie U-571 in which the main character is told that leadership isn’t a matter of dying for the crew, it’s sending someone else to die for the crew. How prepared were Sheppard and Weir for what was in front of them?

3) How smart is Sheppard, really? Seriously, though, Joe Flanigan’s acting never fails to astound me in this episode. Something we see over and over through the course of the season begins in Sheppard’s very first scenes: when faced with the unfamiliar, he grabs what he knows and anchors himself there. With the Athosians, he does his best to play by their rules. When he’s back on Atlantis and wants to send the rescue mission, he locks onto the fact that they can figure out the planet’s address, pushing Rodney’s patronizing right back in his face. Then in the first balcony scene, what he locks onto is what got him into trouble in the first place: he doesn’t leave people behind.

4) One of Sheppard’s most intriguing moments in the episode is when he tells Elizabeth “this is what you brought me for.” Was he even in one of Sumner’s teams, or was he really just there to be Gene Boy? What kind of effect would this have on his attitude toward both Sumner and Weir?

5) Torri Higginson said in an interview a few months ago that Elizabeth knew going into it that she and Sheppard would eventually end up butting heads over something, but that Elizabeth knew that his motives were good, and that’s where they could find common ground. How true is this? How well did Elizabeth and John get each other here at the beginning?

6) Was waking the Wraith actually Sheppard’s fault, or did his killing the Keeper merely hasten events that would have taken place once the Wraith knew of Earth?

Hopefully that’ll be enough to spark some good conversation.

[Athenaktt]

1) What strikes me most in “Rising”, so soon after seeing “The Siege Part II”, is the vast difference between our intrepid heroes at the beginning and what they become over the course of the season. Major Fischer has been pushing me to write something along these lines, but as I’m pushing plot bunnies away as fast as I can, I’ll pose this question to you: what do you think Elizabeth from “Rising” (or even “Lost City”/“New Order”, for those who watch SG-1 as well) would say about her own actions later in the season, such as authorizing experimentation on a prisoner, or negotiating for nuclear weapons?

I'm going to pick a question and start the answering...

Elizabeth has definately changed and developed much over the course of the season. I can't really remember how Elizabeth was in New Order, but I think I remember her being kind of overly cautious, she always wants to have all the details and information with her before she makes a final decision.

Like in "Rising", Sheppard is ready to go and save Sumner and friends the moment he can with out really thinking everything through. While Elizabeth wants more information on the wraith, before they do anything. And I remember her bringing up wanting to negotiate with the wraiths. That shows that Elizabeth is still thinking in terms of dealing with other humans on earth. I believe she had a similar problem with negotiating with the go'aulds in "New Order". Even though she may have learned something from that order. In the beginning of the season, Elizabeth was still thinking in terms of a diplomat from Earth.

But as the series progresses, Elizabeth realizes that circumstances are far different, and sometimes things thats would apply wonderfully for Earth(eg. Geneva Convention) have no weight in another galaxy. I guess the expedition team to atlantis had turned from a research team into a fight for survival by "The Siege"

I noticed that both in "Rising" And "The Siege" Elizabeth is force to make the decision to give up the City. Both times she is hesitant to leave City, but at each of those moments she realizes that it's more important for them to survive and continue their mission, then die with the City.

I hope that made sense. My brain is so fried right now.

[LurkerLa]

Just throwing in a couple of quick thoughts here, although they haven't really had time to percolate yet, and I'm short on sleep, so therefore:

My brain is so fried right now.

(That expresses it perfectly).

3) How smart is Sheppard, really? Seriously, though, Joe Flanigan’s acting never fails to astound me in this episode. Something we see over and over through the course of the season begins in Sheppard’s very first scenes: when faced with the unfamiliar, he grabs what he knows and anchors himself there. With the Athosians, he does his best to play by their rules. When he’s back on Atlantis and wants to send the rescue mission, he locks onto the fact that they can figure out the planet’s address, pushing Rodney’s patronizing right back in his face. Then in the first balcony scene, what he locks onto is what got him into trouble in the first place: he doesn’t leave people behind.

Mensa intelligence aside, Sheppard is very intuitive. See, process briefly, react - while he's fully capable of analysis, he doen't always engage in it. But that's what Elizabeth is for, right? Analyzing every angle. And while they might ultimately end up at the same course of action (or not, thinking of Hot Zone), the process can be quite different. The rescue mission in "Rising" is a good example, I think. To bring up the ship aspect - I think it's part of why they make a good team.

4) One of Sheppard’s most intriguing moments in the episode is when he tells Elizabeth “this is what you brought me for.” Was he even in one of Sumner’s teams, or was he really just there to be Gene Boy? What kind of effect would this have on his attitude toward both Sumner and Weir?

For some reason I never really contemplated this... so now I want to watch this again just to see what influence his possible position as solely "Gene Boy" might have had on his attitude (and general flippancy).

I keep trying to write more on this, but my brain keeps freezing and I'm not making any sense so I'll think some more and come back to it.

Right, I'm having trouble with my though processes, and my computer keeps freezing on me so I'd best go fix that and come back to this later.

[Blue Banrigh]

5) Torri Higginson said in an interview a few months ago that Elizabeth knew going into it that she and Sheppard would eventually end up butting heads over something, but that Elizabeth knew that his motives were good, and that’s where they could find common ground. How true is this? How well did Elizabeth and John get each other here at the beginning?

My attempt.

In Rising I think they were both testing the boundaries, and trying to get a sense of how the other works. I think they had a basic grasp of each other, Sheppard was appealing to her sense of right. And Elizabeth must have known about his penchant for reckless action for the immediate good cause she was trying to get him to slow down and think of consequences. But I think they did find a common ground in regards to the rescue.

[Athenaktt]

For some reason I never really contemplated this... so now I want to watch this again just to see what influence his possible position as solely "Gene Boy" might have had on his attitude (and general flippancy).

That just makes me think of that moment when he goes "Doctor, this is why you brought me here." moment.

[ohshocking]

1) What strikes me most in “Rising”, so soon after seeing “The Siege Part II”, is the vast difference between our intrepid heroes at the beginning and what they become over the course of the season. Major Fischer has been pushing me to write something along these lines, but as I’m pushing plot bunnies away as fast as I can, I’ll pose this question to you: what do you think Elizabeth from “Rising” (or even “Lost City”/“New Order”, for those who watch SG-1 as well) would say about her own actions later in the season, such as authorizing experimentation on a prisoner, or negotiating for nuclear weapons?

I think Elizabeth from 'Rising' would be shocked at how she's become later in the season. Not in a bad way, just surprised at herself. She's had to adapt along with everyone on the Atlantis team, but given how anti-military she was and her pacifism in 'Rising' I think she's one who's changed a lot. I don't think in 'Rising' she was completely aware of what kind of things she'd have to be ordering/consenting to (such as negotiating for and allowing the use of nuclear weapons). Given the dire circumstances, however, I think Elizabeth from 'Rising' would understand what her later-in-the-season self has had to go through and see why she's had to adapt and change.

2) Robert E. Lee once said that “to be a good soldier, you must love the army. To be a good commander, you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love.” On a similar note, there’s a scene in the movie U-571 in which the main character is told that leadership isn’t a matter of dying for the crew, it’s sending someone else to die for the crew. How prepared were Sheppard and Weir for what was in front of them?

I've never heard that quote before, but it fits extremely well for 'The Siege part II'.
I don't think Elizabeth was prepared for the sort of decisions about people's lives she would have to make. I think that she was still thinking (in 'Rising') that negotiating would be enough. She believes in the best in people and I don't think at the beginning she would have thought that it could only be solved by fighting. She probably didn't expect that she would have to send people to their death at the beginning, whilst she must have known that difficult decisions would have to be made, I don't think she was prepared for one like that.

[Kazan]

Great thoughts and questions Mel and really interesting comments from everyone so far. We going to have come great debates on all this!!!

1) What strikes me most in “Rising”, so soon after seeing “The Siege Part II”, is the vast difference between our intrepid heroes at the beginning and what they become over the course of the season. Major Fischer has been pushing me to write something along these lines, but as I’m pushing plot bunnies away as fast as I can, I’ll pose this question to you: what do you think Elizabeth from “Rising” (or even “Lost City”/“New Order”, for those who watch SG-1 as well) would say about her own actions later in the season, such as authorizing experimentation on a prisoner, or negotiating for nuclear weapons?

Maybe we should look at it from both directions.
a) What would Elizabeth from Rising think of herself and her actions up to SeigeII and
b) What would the Elizabeth from SiegeII think of herself from Rising

At face value for a) I think she would be shocked but she is an extremely intelligent character with a drive to try and understand and rationalise things. So despite any shock I think she would be wanting to know and analyse why she made those decisions.
For b) I think she would think of herself as a little niave and overly idealistic or perhaps even somewhat unrealistic.

When I started jotting down my thoughts on this, initially I thought yes she has changed a lot but now I'm not so sure.
Fundamentally, Elizabeth has always been a fierce protector and leader of the people. OK at the beginning maybe she was a little green but she would have gone to great lengths even at the outset to do her best for them. Whilst maybe she may not have invisaged some of the decisions she would have to make, ultimately she did make them, she did what she needed to do and I think her core values have remained intact. What has changed is that she is much more realistic about her environment. None of those decisions were taken lightly and I am sure she will continue to wrestle at times with tough choices but her principles remain intact.

2) Robert E. Lee once said that “to be a good soldier, you must love the army. To be a good commander, you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love.” On a similar note, there’s a scene in the movie U-571 in which the main character is told that leadership isn’t a matter of dying for the crew, it’s sending someone else to die for the crew. How prepared were Sheppard and Weir for what was in front of them?

For Weir, I'm not sure she could really have been prepared. Its a set of circumstances that would have been completely alien (no pun intended!) to her and not within her realm of previous experiences. Here is a woman whose experience lies within negotiation and diplomacy so her first instincts will always be to try and work a solution out to any problem without the need to resort to force or violence. So however much she may have been briefed about the possibilities of military actions and the resulting consequences and possible losses, until actually confronted with that, I think she pushed that to the back of her mind.
For Sheppard, potentially I think the oppposite may be true. He may well often display a somewhat flippant and irreverent side but underneath he is a trained and combat experienced soldier, who will no doubt have found himself in situations before that called for tough decisions.

What I find interesting about this is that they are essentially complete oppposites yet instead of creating a problem, put them together and they form a stronger team.

[Blue Banrigh]

For some reason I never really contemplated this... so now I want to watch this again just to see what influence his possible position as solely "Gene Boy" might have had on his attitude (and general flippancy).

That's what I saw, he's more flippant cause he is simply 'Gene Boy' and soldier, not military leader.

[Hatcheter]

4) One of Sheppard’s most intriguing moments in the episode is when he tells Elizabeth “this is what you brought me for.” Was he even in one of Sumner’s teams, or was he really just there to be Gene Boy? What kind of effect would this have on his attitude toward both Sumner and Weir?

I think there could have been a very interesting dynamic between Sheppard, Sumner, and Weir. We know Sumner had “warned” Weir about Sheppard, and even in the SGC’s Gateroom he seemed somewhat distrustful of the major’s loyalty or opposed to his presence. But within a day of Sheppard’s first trip through Stargate, Sumner leaves him as Earth’s representative to a new culture while he explores the ruins on Athos.

I think Sumner would have been professional enough, if he had survived, to put Sheppard to work on an exploration team. Probably with Bates (who I assume is a seasoned Gate traveler), to help him in learn about off-world exploration and fighting aliens and such.

I believe that Sheppard would have wound up as a sort of median between Sumner and Weir. He needled Sumner in the SGC about Weir being in charge, but he followed orders the rest of the episode, and eventually pushed Weir into allowing a rescue mission. I think he would have continued to float in the middle, gravitating toward military discipline in some situations, diplomacy or a freer hand in others (like dealing with irritable civilian scientists).

[aaobuttons]

Probably with Bates (who I assume is a seasoned Gate traveler), to help him in learn about off-world exploration and fighting aliens and such.

I don't think Bates was that experienced. During Rising pt 2 when the wraith were attacking, he was huddled on the ground and when Summner grabbed at him he was all panicked and said something like "There's too many of them" or something. If he had been an experienced gate traveler, he would have seen more firefights, either with the gould/jaffa or something.

I do think that he probably would have been placed on Sheppards team though, he seemed to be the right hand man... experience or no.

[Blue Banrigh]

I don't think Bates was that experienced. During Rising pt 2 when the wraith were attacking, he was huddled on the ground and when Summner grabbed at him he was all panicked and said something like "There's too many of them" or something. If he had been an experienced gate traveler, he would have seen more firefights, either with the gould/jaffa or something.

I do think that he probably would have been placed on Sheppards team though, he seemed to be the right hand man... experience or no.

I just thought he was like that was because of the ghosts the Wraith were projecting.

[aaobuttons]

I just thought he was like that was because of the ghosts the Wraith were projecting.

Hmm, maybe, that's as good an explanation as any I guess. What we need is a bit of Bates back story to flesh him out (he's a bit cookie cutter if you ask me).