Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Ruined_puzzle]

I saw that - After Dr. Who, I handed my teen the remote and left the room to get online. He flipped to a "Friends" rerun. *LOL*

That was a good call because I stuck around after DW. As soon as I heard John say that line about open-minded women or something, I soo wanted to punch him in the face. I mean I don't know what's wrong with me, I can't really want to hurt his face(pretty) but the episode is so bad that as soon as he spoke I was annoyed. Blah.

*goes to watch Doctor Who again*

[Major Zoidberg]

On this subject of Elizabeth not liking the military, is this cannon, or fanon, 'cause in Lost City (i think) it was said (i don't remember by who) that she lobied if i remember correctly it was something about budgets.
However in the course of the series i've not heard much from her on this matter, yeah, she's a pacifist, but she doesn't sound all that anti-military.

Might have been me generalising again *runs* Some pacifists hate the military with a passion

[xfkirsten]

On this subject of Elizabeth not liking the military, is this cannon, or fanon, 'cause in Lost City (i think) it was said (i don't remember by who) that she lobied if i remember correctly it was something about budgets.
However in the course of the series i've not heard much from her on this matter, yeah, she's a pacifist, but she doesn't sound all that anti-military.

Yup, you make a good point here. It hasn't been shown that she doesn't like the military itself or doesn't support it, only that she supports peace as the primary choice. She'd lobbied to reduce government spending on the military, I believe, but that doesn't neccessarily mean she's anti-military.

[Major Zoidberg]

Yup, you make a good point here. It hasn't been shown that she doesn't like the military itself or doesn't support it, only that she supports peace as the primary choice. She'd lobbied to reduce government spending on the military, I believe, but that doesn't neccessarily mean she's anti-military.

Liz is a smart woman, i'm sure she'd bash the people who use the military as a blunt instrument an not the miltary it self

The military is being abused by the people in charge latley

[Melyanna]

On this subject of Elizabeth not liking the military, is this cannon, or fanon, 'cause in Lost City (i think) it was said (i don't remember by who) that she lobied if i remember correctly it was something about budgets.
However in the course of the series i've not heard much from her on this matter, yeah, she's a pacifist, but she doesn't sound all that anti-military.

In Lost City, it was stated that she lobbied against government spending on the military. What she said about herself was that she wanted to stop the proliferation of weapons.

I wouldn't call her a pacifist. I'd say that she believes that force is the last option, but an option nonetheless. However, "anti-military" would probably fit the bill better, because it's been hinted a few times that she has serious problems with how the military is run. Which isn't strictly anti-military, but certainly not pacifistic, either.

[Major Fischer]

I wouldn't call her a pacifist. I'd say that she believes that force is the last option, but an option nonetheless. However, "anti-military" would probably fit the bill better, because it's been hinted a few times that she has serious problems with how the military is run. Which isn't strictly anti-military, but certainly not pacifistic, either.

That's actually something I was about to say. Most diplomats believe in force as an option because the threat of force is so key to their work. Certainly Elizabeth is perfectly capable of threatening people, and she isn't always bluffing. One of my favorite lines of hers is the "I generally stop short of offering nuclear weapons" line. I think she is opposed to the proliferation of WMDs, and likely landmines as well, things that are the scourges of the places she has spend her adult life going in and out of. There is a big difference between believing in non-poliferation and being a pacifist. Elizabeth is no Quaker.

One way to think about this is an example I often give. Most people think of Jimmy Carter as a man of peace. Certainly the Nobel committee thought so, but he was also a Naval Academy graduate, a nuclear engineer, and there is a nuclear submarine named after him. He hasn't stopped believing in force as <I>an</I> option, but he believes in other options first.

[Luz]

I wouldn't call her a pacifist. I'd say that she believes that force is the last option, but an option nonetheless. However, "anti-military" would probably fit the bill better, because it's been hinted a few times that she has serious problems with how the military is run. Which isn't strictly anti-military, but certainly not pacifistic, either.

I don't know, i've always felt that in the beginning (of the series) she was a pacifist, with Sheppard in the balcony she was all "let's make love, not war". I definitely don't think of her as a pacifist anymore, she's learned during the PG experience (although i wish there was a bit more NC-17 in it ) that there are some situations in which you can't talk your way out of. In Coup

Spoiler:

she didn't show much doubts when it came to raiding Ladon's hide out

I like this darker side of her, she couldn't continue to be so naive (and i mean as in when she suggested they negotiated with the wraith back in Rising 2) in light of everything they've faced.

[Ronnikins]

I don't know, i've always felt that in the beginning (of the series) she was a pacifist, with Sheppard in the balcony she was all "let's make love, not war". I definitely don't think of her as a pacifist anymore, she's learned during the PG experience (although i wish there was a bit more NC-17 in it ) that there are some situations in which you can't talk your way out of. In Coup

Spoiler:

she didn't show much doubts when it came to raiding Ladon's hide out

I like this darker side of her, she couldn't continue to be so naive (and i mean as in when she suggested they negotiated with the wraith back in Rising 2) in light of everything they've faced.

I would say Elizabeth was more of an idealist rather than a pacifist. However, the unexpected twists and turns they have encountered in the Pegasus Galaxy quickly forced her into a situation where she had no guidelines to rely upon. The Atlantis expedition team is re-writing the rule book as it goes from one crisis to another. It's all very well to be politically correct but the survival instinct does come to the fore when your life and those you care for are threatened. I feel Elizabeth has always been a realist with a great moral compassion. As Luz pointed out, she cannot be as naive as she was in the beginning. She is making compromises, trying to hold on to her ideals but seems willing to make personal sacrifices along the way if it ensures her people's safety with the least amount of bloodshed.

[Luz]

Idealist, that's the word i was looking for, pacifist doesn't quite convey what i was trying to express . Thanks Won-Won (last time, i promise ).

[Major Zoidberg]

I like that shes compromised on here ideals in order to save lives, you can't bury your head in the sand all the time and there are some fights worth fighting

[Melyanna]

I don't know, i've always felt that in the beginning (of the series) she was a pacifist, with Sheppard in the balcony she was all "let's make love, not war".

As I recall, she brought up the possibility of a peaceful resolution in that scene. (I wouldn't call that na&#239;ve, either. They knew almost nothing about their opponents. I think John was actually more na&#239;ve in that scene for thinking he could actually pull off a rescue mission with what he knew was available to him at the time, which didn't include the puddle jumpers.) She wasn't completely against the idea of using force. She was against the idea of using force stupidly. And what John was suggesting was pretty dumb, given what they knew at the time of that argument.

She said that the military had made bad decisions when the Stargate was first used, and this was true. She didn't want to authorize John's idea because he hadn't proven to her that it had the slightest chance of working at that point. It wasn't because she was categorically against the use of force.

Being unwilling to use force at the onset doesn't make her a pacifist. I think she came into the series with the belief that force is the last option, and I don't think that in itself has changed. What she's learned is that sometimes, force can be the only option.

[Major Fischer]

Idealist, that's the word i was looking for, pacifist doesn't quite convey what i was trying to express . Thanks Won-Won (last time, i promise ).

Now idealist is a word I'd agree with. To be honest I don't think comparing Weir from Lost City to Weir from everything else is very fruitful. I think they wrote Lost City without thinking too deeply about what her character should really be like. She's written more like a liberal college professor than a diplomat in LC. In New Order I think we've got a better sense of her. Part of the art of the kind of diplomat we are told she is is being able to make someoen believe that you are unreasonable and that you will commit to force. It's the difference between being a neutral and being an advocate.

[LurkerLa]

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that Chapter Five of Family Matters is up at my LiveJournal and at ff.net.

Also, Athena has put my vid - You're My Best Friend - up here. Spoilers through Coup D'Etat. It has it's problems, but I haven't bothered to fix them for the simple reason that my computer freezes and crashes whenever I do.

Guh, blurry vision. Tired. Must go bed.

[Major Fischer]

She was against the idea of using force stupidly. And what John was suggesting was pretty dumb, given what they knew at the time of that argument.

John seemed to want to run into the situation without much information, and if he had, he'd have run through the stargate into space getting lots of people killed.

[SapphireJewelledQueen]

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that Chapter Five of Family Matters is up at my LiveJournal and at ff.net.

Excellent chapter I always look forward to reading your fics. Thanks for updating so fast! *biggrin*