Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[SnoggingPicard]

What are you talking about? You seem to be a Shep/Teyla shipper by the looks of your siggy!

I'm sure they have learned not to make the same mistakes. I absolutely love S/W ship and don't want them to screw it all up. I don't want, in a few or so years, to be sitting on this chair, thinking of S/W what I think about S/J!

Oh I am! But WRS and I have had many, many, many long conversations about this, and the issue with how TPTB will actually pursue a S/W ship is my real issue with it. Believe me, I squee and make the "awww, cute" noises along with her during "Siege Pt. 3" and "Conversion", but I'm very, very cautious about the future of this one due to my many sleepless nights over S/J. I'm right there with you -- I just don't want to be disappointed regardless of what ship they pursue. I guess I'm trying to find parts of all of the potential ships that I like so that I won't be crushed if they go with something different than my main ship of choice. But yeah, I just don't want to be in the same position that S/J has put me in. ::crosses fingers:: From one shipper to another -- let us pray!

[SGLAB]

Well, I was a Sam/Jack shipper before I got disillusioned by... a variety of things, and I really don't remember a Sam/Jack situation like that. Personally, I thought it was the only way Elizabeth could answer that comment.


I think the biggest difference between Sam/Jack and Shep/Weir is in the shows. SG-1 is about a team; Atlantis is about a community. If it were a ten-person expedition, yes, it'd be really, really weird for the two senior personnel to get involve with each other. As it stands, it'd probably still strike some people as odd, but Atlantis is a large community, and in many ways a family. A relationship is less inappropriate in that light, since they don't go home at the end of the work day..

ITA. I also like the fact that Elizabeth is not on Shep's team. She's separate from that. I don't feel like there's a competition for Shep's affections like there was with Jack and Sam and Jack and Daniel. Poor Teal'c, no one ever seems to be concerned about Jack's affection for him competing with Jack's affection for Sam.

As for Elizabeth in Conversion... You know, I will never understand how people think that Elizabeth's worrying streak is something they brought in for Season 2 to weaken her character. One of the most endearing moments of Rising, in my opinion, was her standing in the gate room, while work is being done all around her, just staring at the gate, worried that she'd made the wrong decision about letting John go on the rescue mission. And it's not like she's ever been worried for no particular reason. I have a terrible feeling that if it were a man worried about subordinates, people wouldn't be accusing him of being weak.

...In fact, they never have. His name is George Hammond, and he made some pretty questionable decisions now and then because he wouldn't give up on SG-1..

[sarcasm] Well you see Hammond didn't have any romantic feelings for any of the members of sg-1. So platonic friends are aloud to worry all they want and do really stupid things in the name of friendship. [sarcasm]

So how in the world would it weaken Elizabeth if she were in a relationship with John? She already worries about John, and that hasn't prevented her from doing her job before. At the end of The Lost Boys, we saw that she was reporting on the business of the city, things she was doubtless heavily involved in, before reporting that John and the team were still missing. And Hatcheter pointed out in another thread that her saying they were still missing is a pretty good indication that they'd been missing before the previous contact with Earth, a week earlier. They say that the first fifteen minutes in a hostage situation are the most critical. I think Elizabeth conducted herself amazingly well, seeing that her top team was missing for more than seven days.

So what would change if she and John were involved? Not a whole lot. She's already proven that she'll sacrifice him for the good of the whole, and has done so more than once. What more can anyone ask for?


Er... I wouldn't say almost everyone loved S/J. There were probably as many, if not more Jack/Daniel shippers, and probably equally as many noromos and anti-shippers. Fandom-wide, it was probably the least popular of the big options. It was just the most popular het ship.


If every episode were about Shep/Weir, or if characters were massacred for the sake of ship, I'd say it's turning into Soapgate. But as it stands, I don't think we're anywhere close to reaching As the Gate Turns. TPTB understand that very few people in the audience actually want that, so the likelihood of that happening is slim.

As for the "little theme music," that was usually an adagio variation of the SG-1 main theme. They've done the same thing with Atlantis in quite a few of the major Shep/Weir scenes, like the stairwell and the gate room in The Eye, or the control room scene in Siege II, or the gate room scene in Siege III.

ETA: And if you want to talk about a ship turning into Sam/Jack, that'd be Shep/Teyla. Same problems with regulations and everything. In fact, it's pretty clear from Grace Under Pressure that John has jurisdiction over the civilians as well as the Marines and airmen, so the only person he could get involved with and not get in legal trouble is, in fact, Elizabeth.

I never noticed a "Theme Song" for S/J until I saw it commented on a message board.

[Rubicon]

Huh.
What thread am I in?
And who is this Sam/Jack you speak of?

[Erised]

As for Elizabeth in Conversion... You know, I will never understand how people think that Elizabeth's worrying streak is something they brought in for Season 2 to weaken her character. One of the most endearing moments of Rising, in my opinion, was her standing in the gate room, while work is being done all around her, just staring at the gate, worried that she'd made the wrong decision about letting John go on the rescue mission. And it's not like she's ever been worried for no particular reason. I have a terrible feeling that if it were a man worried about subordinates, people wouldn't be accusing him of being weak.

I agree. I have never even thought about Elizabeth's character weakening during the Siege until I've read about it on this forum! And I still don't think that. Probalby only anti-shippers make up things like that because they hate all these romantic moments, like the hug in the Siege 3. If anything, she has gotten stronger. Letting the man she loves risking his life all the time takes a lot of guts, I think.

As for Rising, I don't know what people are talking about. That early in the show, she would be worrying aobut any team going on a rescue mission. Even if she was attracted to John by then, I doubt the feelings were strong enough. (unless they spent a lot of time on Earth together before leaving, but I don't think so)

[Weir'sRedShirt]

I really don't remember a Sam/Jack situation like that.

Uhg.... so rusty on SG-1... ooh! The one I connected it to was "Heroes Pt1", when Sam's being asked all these awkward questions about Jack and their personal relationship.

Personally, I thought it was the only way Elizabeth could answer that comment.

Oh, I agree with you completely. It was just that fact that they included it in there in such an uncomfortable manner (in my opinion).

You know, I will never understand how people think that Elizabeth's worrying streak is something they brought in for Season 2 to weaken her character.

I don't think it weakens her character; it brings out her compassion for others, especially those she is in charge of. But it seems like there aren't enough "Weir episodes"; ones where her role is not just sitting at Atlantis worrying about Shep and team. What worries me most about S/W is that the worrying about the the team will become worse and force her role to be just the head of the base who sits and is anxious. I would far prefer S/W to never happen then for TPTB to ruin her character. If we had different writers, we wouldn't have a problem, but the writers seem to have problems with writing female characters. They did Sam exceptionally well, but it seems that they're making the male characters on Atlantis out to be the heroes, when they've got two perfectly good, strong, female leads.

I have a terrible feeling that if it were a man worried about subordinates, people wouldn't be accusing him of being weak.

I'm not calling her weak; it just seems to me like that's all she does. Which is the writers' fault- that was also a problem I had with Hammond. He was an excellent leader- cared for his subordinates, was logical, had experience in the field. He went off-world every so often, but I don't think enough. Now, Weir should be off-world more often than she is now- yes, she's head of the base, but she's also a better negotiator, ect than the majority of the Atlantis team.

So how in the world would it weaken Elizabeth if she were in a relationship with John?

That's the thing. If we were basing this just on her character, I'd say it wouldn't weaken her. But the way the Stargate writers are...I can see them playing on the side of "John is captured and Weir will go to any lengths to save him", or something out-of-character like that. It's less about Weir's character than it is depending on the writers to go a different way from S/J, which was such a long drag.

If every episode were about Shep/Weir, or if characters were massacred for the sake of ship, I'd say it's turning into Soapgate. But as it stands, I don't think we're anywhere close to reaching As the Gate Turns. TPTB understand that very few people in the audience actually want that, so the likelihood of that happening is slim.

Oh, you should write a story about As the Gate Turns. It'd be great... I would so read that. But the writers, apparently, thought the audience wanted S/J the way they wrote it. And I figure, if they thought the audience liked that, they're likely to repeat on Atlantis, even if it ruins the character.

As for the "little theme music," that was usually an adagio variation of the SG-1 main theme. They've done the same thing with Atlantis in quite a few of the major Shep/Weir scenes, like the stairwell and the gate room in The Eye, or the control room scene in Siege II, or the gate room scene in Siege III.

Wait... are we thinking of the same "theme"? The one in Heroes Pt 2, during the S/J hug? Because I didn't notice anything like that in the Atlantis scenes you mentioned.

Same problems with regulations and everything. In fact, it's pretty clear from Grace Under Pressure that John has jurisdiction over the civilians as well as the Marines and airmen, so the only person he could get involved with and not get in legal trouble is, in fact, Elizabeth.

Ooh, let's not bash Sheyla...but I see your point. Another thing about Sheyla is the whole "Trinity" thing, if that comes up again in the future, it could cause a major rift between Shep and Teyla. And also Shep and Weir, since Weir trusted Shep's decision to trust Teyla.

It all depends on the writers' originality with creating their ships. If the writers decide they liked S/J, I would think they'd copy S/J, with whatever ship they go with, be it S/W or S/T.

[Erised]

awesome fic by Angel_Leviathon

It says I don't have a permission to access

[Dr Weir]

I don't think it weakens her character; it brings out her compassion for others, especially those she is in charge of. But it seems like there aren't enough "Weir episodes"; ones where her role is not just sitting at Atlantis worrying about Shep and team. What worries me most about S/W is that the worrying about the the team will become worse and force her role to be just the head of the base who sits and is anxious. I would far prefer S/W to never happen then for TPTB to ruin her character. If we had different writers, we wouldn't have a problem, but the writers seem to have problems with writing female characters. They did Sam exceptionally well, but it seems that they're making the male characters on Atlantis out to be the heroes, when they've got two perfectly good, strong, female leads.

I disagree with you, Weir is a very strong character, that's why she's got such a big following. There has been quite some development such in intruder (which let us know she's single, obivously good for the S/W ship). Weir has no problem telling ppl what to do and taking charge and she has been the hero many times like in condemned when she saved the entire team and in many other eps Weir wasn't the main hero but was one of the heros. I would like to see her more in eps and I feel she does appear most of the time a fair amount, she is a lead character after all and runs the missions. I do agree Teyla is a little underdeveloped but

Spoiler:

more was learned about her and culture in critical mass.

Weir just has a presense about her, Torri has really taken on Weir so well. As for the S/W ship, why not? Lets see what happens, why be negative about it. I haven't read all the latest posts (just so many ) but I always felt there wasn't enough shipping in SG1 and SGA, time something happened between some chacaters and who better then Weir and Shep who already have shown to be attracted to each other. I can't remember if I mentioned this before but a lot of ppl who don't post in this thread and are not into ships can see this too. It's so obvious now it can't be denied.

[SallyLizzie]

It says I don't have a permission to access

Whoops. Sorry, it's on LJ and i forgot it was 'locked'. Maybe she'll put it up elsewere soon.

[LurkerLa]

It's less about Weir's character than it is depending on the writers to go a different way from S/J, which was such a long drag.

<snip>

It all depends on the writers' originality with creating their ships. If the writers decide they liked S/J, I would think they'd copy S/J, with whatever ship they go with, be it S/W or S/T.

My personal feeling is that we don't have too much to worry about in terms of Shep/Weir going the (what many feel was disastrous) route of Sam/Jack. If you look back through this thread some, you'll see discussions that point out how well developed Shep/Weir already is when compared to Sam/Jack, and in less than two seasons. You can really see them becoming friends, and such (sorry, I ran out of steam there at the end - my cat scratched me and my train of thought got derailed ).

[SallyLizzie]

To make up for my dud link before i bring you more great fic and smut

Omen (pg13)
Omen, part 2 (nc17)

[SallyLizzie]

Whoops. Sorry, it's on LJ and i forgot it was 'locked'. Maybe she'll put it up elsewere soon

....WOW! She did. That was fast *blinks*
teh awesome fic

part 4 of Desert Rose by Finnstardust is up (Read all the chaps the other day from your LJ memories and i can't wait to read more )

Home Again, chapter 18 I'm seriously loving this WIP

ETA: oh yeah, another WIP i'm into atm is Not Alone It's up to chapter 3

[Erised]

My personal feeling is that we don't have too much to worry about in terms of Shep/Weir going the (what many feel was disastrous) route of Sam/Jack. If you look back through this thread some, you'll see discussions that point out how well developed Shep/Weir already is when compared to Sam/Jack, and in less than two seasons. You can really see them becoming friends, and such (sorry, I ran out of steam there at the end - my cat scratched me and my train of thought got derailed ).

So true. John/Liz relationship is already very developed. Sam and Jack weren't well developed by season 2. I think it was all very formal for a long, long time. This is why I started enjoying SG-1 by season 4. Before, it wasn't going anywhere. And then we had S. 4-7, and that's it. S.8 wasn't exactly what I wanted. What was up with Pete? uke:
But with John/Liz, I noticed something by 38 minutes! That was only, what, third episode? They have definately learned how to develop ships properly



^ yay! Thanks Sally~

now I have something to do

[Lexa Jayde]

Home Again, chapter 18 I'm seriously loving this WIP

ETA: oh yeah, another WIP i'm into atm is Not Alone It's up to chapter 3

OMG !!!!!! i love these fics.... i am on ff.net 2 times a days with updates... *sooo good*... another is: Gone in the Night at ff.net

[Weir'sRedShirt]

I disagree with you, Weir is a very strong character

No need to disagree. I'm a huge Weir fan and know she's a very strong character. It's just the fact that her character hasn't been developed as far as it should have been; I'd prefer for more development for both Shep and Weir before the actual ship began. It would add to why the ship would work, and make it more believable to non-S/W shippers. The character development for all characters is their number one priority right now; once you have your characters development, then you start the ships.

I would like to see her more in eps and I feel she does appear most of the time a fair amount, she is a lead character after all and runs the missions.

I would love for her and Teyla both to be the main characters. Teyla's only episode I can really think is "The Gift", which was more about the Wraith than her. Weir is such a great, strong character, but she's taken up a Hammond role in my opinion; except for a few episodes, she basically stays at Atlantis and runs the place. In "Condemned", she kicks total butt, and I'm having difficulty thinking of other episodes where she fulfills the possibility of her role. Once her and Shep's characters are developed, we'll have a lot more evidence for the ship; the same goes for Shep/Teyla.

We've seen plenty of McKay; I think half the series is about him. Not to say that I don't love him, but I really want to see Weir fill out her complete potential as a leader. Yes, she's head of the base, but one of my favorite episodes was "Condemned", where she went off-base and kicked some alien butt. One thing I didn't like about the Simon plotline (which I supposed I liked, because then we learned she's single ) was how S/W seemed pushed on us afterwards. It was very subtle in season 1, where they had a professional trust/relationship that the writers should have built upon. They didn't always agree, but you could tell they had a lot of respect for each other; after the Simon thing, she seems to almost fall apart. Yes, she's stable on the outside, but after Simon there's all the sudden this friendy "we've been through a lot together" bond between the two. Now, is that just because of Simon? My guess is yes; now, I have no problem with Shep and Weir growing close and becoming highly trusted friends with each other, but not if it's pushed on us like that. We need more development of their relationship rather than it just popping up like that.

Before the writers can even think of shipping, I think they need to give us reasons why Shep and Weir are the close friends everyone says they are. We see scenes between Beckett and McKay, Shep and Teyla, and Ford and Shep. I can see S/W coming more out of a close, personal friendship than what a sudden attraction, like the writers seem to be writing now. So... more development of all characters, then ships. I would love for S/W to be the ship, because I really love the characters together so far. But I think the development of their relationship as friendship and on a professional level is more important right now than romance. If they dive right into the ship, there's going to be chunks missing from the characters, since the writers will focus more likely on the relationship and its affects on Atlantis, not the actual characters.

[xfkirsten]

....WOW! She did. That was fast *blinks*
teh awesome fic

part 4 of Desert Rose by Finnstardust is up (Read all the chaps the other day from your LJ memories and i can't wait to read more )

Home Again, chapter 18 I'm seriously loving this WIP

ETA: oh yeah, another WIP i'm into atm is Not Alone It's up to chapter 3

Oooh! All those WIPs are ones I've been following and absolutely love! Thanks for the heads up!