Wraith Defenders Club

[Wraith Cake]

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I have no problem with Wraith feeding (on man, woman, or child), or wearing the skins of those they feed upon. They are not human, it does not disturb me. (Humans feeding on humans, or wearing human skin, is a TOTALLY different matter.) We can go round and round about this - but it doesn't bother me at all because they are Wraith. They consume human beings. Wearing their skins isn't twisted (to them), it's practical, it's utilizing all of the product, as it were.


I've accepted that the Wraith are of the animal kingdom...higher than most, but not of the same mental disposition as humans. They still think like their insectoid ancestors...hunt and consume - that is their driving force, that is what makes them Wraith - and it's what Todd is afraid of losing. Wearing the flesh of their prey is - to me - no different than wearing the flesh of deer or cow or pig. (Note - I do leatherwork, so perhaps this is why the thought of Wraith wearing the skin of their prey doesn't bother me much.)

Anyway - I'm not going to go on any further about this. It's not an issue for me, whether Joe was joking, or not.

das

Well, if he doesn't rectify this and clarify, I can no longer handle watching the show. I'm sorry, I'm not up for one dimensional, stock type writing, bad fiction that has no more depth to it than a box of crackerjack animals. "Bad guys over there (arrow pointing) good guys over here (arrow pointing in opposite direction).

--One cannot reduce the wraith to complete madmen and expect somehow for us to be afraid of them, let alone be interested in a freakish Todd story, this is nonsense. If this is the quality of the show, its very disappointing. I am very disappointed.

I'll see what he says in tomorrows mail bag. Perhaps, he'll respond to someone's post and reveal more of what he means. Otherwise, its too much for me. The whole reason I watch the show is to see the wraith, I don't find the other characters that interesting. So, hopefully there will be some reconciliation for fans like me who do find this reprehensible.



WK -- I'm sorry das, this just upsets me terribly.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

Or they are sincere people. Different people have different values and morals. You may not agree with their beliefs and what they see as right and proper, but in a fair world (ha ha) everyone should have the freedom to follow their beliefs and not impose their beliefs on others. Not that does always happens look around you.

Not been invited to a Boston Tea Party lately look where that ended up.

Spoiler:

Alot of blood sweat and tears went into the founding of the USA, in the broadest sense it came about if I remeber my history because of taxes but also because the citizens of the USA grew to fast for the mother country thus arose terrible misunderstandings leading to a terrible war that pitched country USA against country UK more importantly family against family. But out of that terrible event there arose a country that gave hope and shelter to many people fleeing problems in their own country

Sorry about that got abit carried away there.

Ok second to last comment

Spoiler:

I have meet quite a few Star Trek/Stargate fans mostly they are like us here enjoying the shows will argue passionatly about the shows. Produce some wonderful artwork and stories. But for some people their lives revolve around shows- their life and how their live their lives. Where is the harm in that? If they are happy that ok for me and don't try to impose their values on me. I like you may not always agree how they live their life but if they respect my life I will respect their way so long as it is within the law.(I'm not going to start a discussion on the law of the land)

WK. You probadely thinking yeah right MCH, ,

Spoiler:

but unless they have a go at me I will leave them alone. I'm no goodie goodie by the way. I also try to remember that not everyone will agree with me in the forum and try not to cause offence to other's values and beliefs. So if someone uses the Star Wars as their faith so be it.

As for the Wraith I personally don't believe they use human skins for their coats, to thin for use, after feeding the humans bodies have collaspe in on thier self. Finally I think that now that Atlantis is (SOB SOB) coming to a close Joe M is on the wind up and is having abit of a dig at the fans.

Ayway that my take on it WK. MCH

OT for WraithCake

Spoiler:

Who won Palin or Bydon you never said. PM me?
I only read it in the paper. I got the impression everybody was careful in what they said and well coached.

MCH

Oh ya sorry, I meant to PM you about that. I'll do that now.
And to clarify, freedom of belief, freedom of expression I'm a fan of both. Whatever, I'm good.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

Even Jesus Christ started out with only a few followers. And we do still not have the concrete proof he existed. And it should not matter. It grew within 2000 years to a worldwide religion. All three religions have the same father, namely Abraham...which was a Jew. Jesus Christ was a Jew for he came from that line. And yet the vatican has claimed and stated in the past that he was not. But there is no shred of evidence that some messiahs Really existed. It is all assumption that came from somewhere. Do not think I am saying this because for saying something. You will find different scripts in for instance the Bible, and again others in more gnostic corners. We can only assume several has existed. I do not deny it. I leave it up to people who do believe in JC. If they feel good because of it. Then what is the big deal?

Now
Some people have experiences with their God. A personal experience. But is it ever proven that God really existed? And so yes who determines Gods exist? A whole mass? A group of people, a handful, or just one individual? Is it a common GOOD? And if the rates are high enough then it is declared ´real´ that this certain deity exists? For instance some religions are built up from the left overs of other religions. The symbols used in Christianity is all PAGAN in origin. So if a god is declared existent, Tell me where does that rate of people who believe end, or begin? If you know the answer you may surely tell me.

Maybe there is a dream like state where other dimensions are revealed. For i do not believe this is the only one.
This Jedi like religion is not only in the US. In australia they ask you what religion you have when you want to move there and Jedi is on the list for a lot of people who wanted to live there claimed to be Jedi. So I think that existence cannot be confirmed by existence. You cannot determin for someone else what is real to them and what is not. People may laugh about it, diss with it. Or what ever. It is all relative. If people want to better themselves because of this ´ belief´ Or lifephilosophy which is present within them, then there is no harm. If they feel good with it, then let them. I find two religions fighting about who is right and who is not more harmful. Religion is war in my opinion, but that is my opinion. i know enough people from a religion, who know just as well as i do, there are enough others who hide behind the face of a god, for their own justification.

i have several experiences with Wraithlike individuals. People may find me a lunatic because of it, and maybe I am. But it is all relative. And actually i do not care what someone else might think of it. It is still my life. As other experiences make part of someone elses life. I am at least not afraid to admit that i have these experiences. i am not afraid to be declared a lunatic by say what? A mass of people? A group , a handful or just another individual? Who can decide that for me whether I am lunatic or not? How many people does it take to declare me lunatic, officially?-
What someone else thinks about it is free. If they diss and laugh about it, it says more about them then about me. I do not care. I just put this link in here. To find likeminded. If someone is against that, then he is free to express that. But no one can stop another from seeking his path in this world. If a pressumed fictionfigure makes someone stronger, then I would not be so sure if it is truly fiction....But once again. It is a matter of perspective and personal experience. Till so far. I am done with it.

Makes sense


WK

[Wraith Cake]

As for the Wraith I personally don't believe they use human skins for their coats, to thin for use, after feeding the humans bodies have collaspe in on thier self. Finally I think that now that Atlantis is (SOB SOB) coming to a close Joe M is on the wind up and is having abit of a dig at the fans.

Ayway that my take on it WK. MCH

MCH

I hope he is just making a dig, it seems that this is how most people are taking it, but I would be very disappointed with the show if this is their take on the wraith, really really disappointed.

I was watching this documentary on National Geographic about this covert prison gang called The White Brotherhood (or something like that) and how even the most notorious and most violent of gang members in prison are frightened of this group. (When the monsters are afraid of a monster, we must all take heed) Essentially, this brotherhood pretend to be white supremacists but really they wanted to recruit fanatics. Anyhow, this one guy, I think his name was Stephens (he was being interviewed by a reporter) said "I'm a violent man; I believe in it as a means to an end, and it's very intimate; there is a reason I am in here". The film editors showed awful photos of the bodies after these "white supremacists" had gotten a hold of them--truly disgusting. Anyhow, the top three guys, Stephens was one of them (just below the top two) had ordered a hit on an inmate's family. They wanted the inmate dead, the parents dead, the children and wife dead, the grandparents dead. But the interesting thing was, this guy Stephens said, "this I cannot do". Now, Stephens is a hard man. A man who had murdered over twenty people on the inside in horrific brutal ways but he turned informant even though it put his life in terrible danger. He said, people on the inside I have no problem helping them part this world, but "innocents", those who have no part in this, they do not deserve that fate.

This is a man who is, for all intents and purposes, a monster, but even had limits, he drew a line that he would not cross. This makes him interesting, this makes him truly terrifying because he becomes accessible. When you take away the accessibility of a character, you take away the interest in them.

The pictures were disgusting. I still can't get them out of my head.

WK

[Laura Dove]

--One cannot reduce the wraith to complete madmen and expect somehow for us to be afraid of them, let alone be interested in a freakish Todd story, this is nonsense. If this is the quality of the show, its very disappointing. I am very disappointed.

While, as I said before, I have no personal problem with wraith using human skin as clothes, I have to agree with how disappointing JM's reply is. One time, the writers say that they are willing to show wraith more as individuals and less as mere generic "villains", and then the next time, they make wraith indulge in the worse human taboos?!

I have the sinking feeling that the writers don't even recognise what they themselves have created. I mean, why give us episodes such as "Ellia", "Michael", "Allies" (the dialogue between Michael and Teyla/Ronon about overcoming one's instinct), "Common Ground", and then go back to "wraith are evil revolting monsters, boo!"? Are they so afraid to acknowledge what they have themselves stated more than once, that is, that wraith are not soulless evil monsters? Are they so afraid of becoming too sympathetic towards their supposed bad guys? Are they afraid to acknowledge what has ALREADY been painted in grey shades, both from the humans and from the wraith? Is it a pathetic attempt to turn wraith into monsters from inability to portray the team as actual good guys? "If wraith are just monsters, then every misdeed is allowed against them, as it's not evil to do bad things against evil creatures?"

For crying out loud, why state such things that are meant for people to viscerally hate the wraith, while the show has more than once stated otherwise??

[Wraith Cake]

I'd like to chime in on the conversation, if I may.

It wouldn't bother me at all if the Wraith made their leather from human skin (although I do agree with those posters who said that TPTB had probably never even thought about it - they dress most aliens in leather...) because leather is a byproduct of food production. Many people eat the flesh of other animals and wear their skins - why should it be morally reprehensible for the Wraith to do the same?

It seems like a ridiculous double standard to me that it should be considered such an evil to wear those that they had fed on - if you do one thing, why would it be considered worse to do the other?

Taking this to its logical conclusion, why should humans consider the Wraith evil for feeding on the human species when they do the same to those that they consider lesser species? I'll take the moral highground because I don't consume or wear or in any other way contribute to the suffering of other species, but the overwhelming majority of people who declare the Wraith to be evil do do those things.

Stinks of hypocrisy, IMO.

I don't think they are reprehensible for needing to feed on humans (this is their biology) I do find the idea of making them into sadistic one dimensional creatures problematic. This paints them as completely evil, beyond redemption. And, as far as how industrialized societies treat animals today (keeping them in squalor and horrid living conditions only later to be stripped of any dignity in their death) it is reprehensible. Just because most of us are removed from the slaughter, merely indicates we are removed from it (that's all)--desensitized through lack of exposure. It doesn't make it right either. And besides, I've never argued that doing what industrialized nations do to livestock is alright, in fact I'm a huge animal rights activist. Is it any wonder Mad Cow disease exists or Listerosis? We will reep what we sow. But anyhow, I will end this.

I find this truly horrifying and don't really want to speak on the subject further myself. I just hope JM makes some sort of clarification, otherwise I've lost all interest in the show.



WK

[Wraith Cake]

OT for WraithCake

Spoiler:

Who won Palin or Bydon you never said. PM me?
I only read it in the paper. I got the impression everybody was careful in what they said and well coached.

MCH

Sorry, did I say Bidden? duh!! I meant Bydon (I still have that cold) sniff, sniff.

WK

[ciannwn]

I've been reading all the posts but haven't really thought of much to say until now.

The idea of Wraith making their clothes out of human skin doesn't bother me at all. It's not like any humans who have been fed on will be needing their skins again. As for children, I'm sure I read on here that Joe M hinted that any who were culled were sent back so they could grow up and breed.

The question is what do the Wraith do with all the fed on bodies? I can't see them giving their lunches proper funerals so the remains probably get dumped as garbage. Why is this better than using the leftovers for other purposes the way we use animal skins?

I don't think human skin would be practical, though. I've always thought of the coats being made out of some grown, organic material because they seem to grow most things.

[MCH]

Sorry, did I say Bidden? duh!! I meant Bydon (I still have that cold) sniff, sniff.

WK

I'm in the UK your in Canada but guess what the cold here too!!!!! sniff sniff and just got rid of one heck of a headache.
Felt like I'd been wraithed but think I'll recover just need a Gift of Life where a Wraith when you need one???

MCH

[Laura Dove]

Hey, not sure if you had seen it already, but reasonably hi-res screencaps of "First Contact" are up at http://www.macsyourman.com/atlantis/...aps/dvd-1.html. *mraw wraith cruiser* *mraw Todd* *mraw yummy*

[MCH]

I've been reading all the posts but haven't really thought of much to say until now.

The idea of Wraith making their clothes out of human skin doesn't bother me at all. It's not like any humans who have been fed on will be needing their skins again. As for children, I'm sure I read on here that Joe M hinted that any who were culled were sent back so they could grow up and breed.

The question is what do the Wraith do with all the fed on bodies? I can't see them giving their lunches proper funerals so the remains probably get dumped as garbage. Why is this better than using the leftovers for other purposes the way we use animal skins?

I don't think human skin would be practical, though. I've always thought of the coats being made out of some grown, organic material because they seem to grow most things.

I did wonder as the hive ships are grown, wheather other materials need are grown such as their clothes . You comment makes sense to me. Maybe the ship would make the material.

Speaking of the ships and I'm not sure if this has been posted on before. But where do they get their power I know they have the hyperdrive engines for space travel, but is there another internal power source? A more organic source of power for things like making the furnishings/clothes to power life support systems, for keepingthe humans who are there for the Wraith to feed on? ect.

MCH

[dasNdanger]

I've been reading all the posts but haven't really thought of much to say until now.

The idea of Wraith making their clothes out of human skin doesn't bother me at all. It's not like any humans who have been fed on will be needing their skins again. As for children, I'm sure I read on here that Joe M hinted that any who were culled were sent back so they could grow up and breed.

The question is what do the Wraith do with all the fed on bodies? I can't see them giving their lunches proper funerals so the remains probably get dumped as garbage. Why is this better than using the leftovers for other purposes the way we use animal skins?

I don't think human skin would be practical, though. I've always thought of the coats being made out of some grown, organic material because they seem to grow most things.

That's the thing - human skin isn't practical for clothing - too thin. Unless, of course, the Wraith have developed a special layering and bonding process to make the leather thicker. Those thinner undershirts they wear could be human leather. Meh, it doesn't bother me...in fact, I find it quite intriguing. If I had to pick Wraith whose job it was to skin corpses and tan their hides, I think Greg would be at the top of the list, then maybe dear ol' Eddy...he'd be laughing the entire time, sick b@stard that he is. Shawn, Steve, and Erik are all too refined, and Todd would just order someone else to do it. (Nah, really...I imagine such menial tasks are given to the warriors - the faced Wraith do no not impress me as the type to do do manual labor.


das

[dasNdanger]

Hey, not sure if you had seen it already, but reasonably hi-res screencaps of "First Contact" are up at http://www.macsyourman.com/atlantis/...aps/dvd-1.html. *mraw wraith cruiser* *mraw Todd* *mraw yummy*

*fans self*

Some lovely Todd pics there - and that Wraith cruiser/transport is the sexiest thing in the galaxy (that isn't breathing)!

I did wonder as the hive ships are grown, wheather other materials need are grown such as their clothes . You comment makes sense to me. Maybe the ship would make the material.

Speaking of the ships and I'm not sure if this has been posted on before. But where do they get their power I know they have the hyperdrive engines for space travel, but is there another internal power source? A more organic source of power for things like making the furnishings/clothes to power life support systems, for keepingthe humans who are there for the Wraith to feed on? ect.

MCH

They haven't told us yet how their power is made...maybe they will in someday, but I doubt it. They have some sort of energy source, and I'm wondering if it's a type of living energy...like an organic 'heart' that runs everything. Joe said he couldn't comment on certain questions I had about The Seed, so perhaps that means we will learn more about hive ships and how they're powered later on.

As far as their clothing goes - I toyed with the idea that their clothing is grown, like an exoskeleton, but again, I doubt it. Too much style and variation in their clothing...indicating that it is made. Is the material grown? This is possible...though, as has been said, I really don't think TPTB have given it much thought.

das

[BlueJay]

i'm not sure if the fact that wraith wear human skin bothers me or not. i've read all the comments and i swing one way and then the other.
On the one hand i don't see it as practical for them to use human skin, it's not correct for what they wish to make with it. After feeding it looks as if nothing is left to be used for leather, it's all shrivelled up and useless. JM did say that culled children were returned. It would make no sense for the wraith to use them for their skins, better to send them back so they can grow to breeding age.

I always thought the leftovers were perhaps absorbed into the ship somehow since it's organic and the wraith seem to leave them in the coccons after they're finished. I think it would be better and more likely if the material was grown on the ship somehow and then worked with to give each wraith their individual look. I think JM was just trying to stir people up (mission accomplished).

IF it is true that they use human skin then i hope it is just the skins of the ones they have fed on that are used. It would be good that nothing was wasted. I'd be happy if it meant that they didn't go and kill herds of animlas just for their skins, though they could take the meat for their worshippers i suppose.

When the 'allies' queen fed on her converted soldier, he was still fleshy but would old skin with it's imperfections be of much use. If they take extra people just for their skins then i think that is too far. I don't believe it though, it would be wasting lifeforce. I think Joe was just **** stirring with his comment and no thought was ever put into where the wraith got alot of their things or indeed much of any info about the wraith was thought of early on.

What would disturb me the most if they did use human skin is the fact that Teyla was weraing one. How would you like it if someone gave you a coat to wear and then later on told you it was made from some guy called Bob you met down the pub last week.
Did Teyla even have a feeding slit in 'the queen,' a fake one or a real one. It looks like her palms are covered in the screencaps.

[The Veldt]

They haven't told us yet how their power is made...maybe they will in someday, but I doubt it. They have some sort of energy source, and I'm wondering if it's a type of living energy...like an organic 'heart' that runs everything. Joe said he couldn't comment on certain questions I had about The Seed, so perhaps that means we will learn more about hive ships and how they're powered later on.

As far as their clothing goes - I toyed with the idea that their clothing is grown, like an exoskeleton, but again, I doubt it. Too much style and variation in their clothing...indicating that it is made. Is the material grown? This is possible...though, as has been said, I really don't think TPTB have given it much thought.

das

When I read this actually my first thought was radiation from the various stars as a sort of huge solar-power thing going on, sort of similar to solar-panels and how various cold-blooded animals use the sun to warm themselves to a sufficient temperature to scurry around doing stuff

The human skin thing doesn't phase me. I find it quite interesting as a theory actually, but as someone said before I think it would have to be made of many layers before it reached a density able to protect to a proper level. One thing that might be worth mentioning is that not -all- humans would be fed upon in order of cause of death I suppose. There's bound to be accidents. Wraith Worshipper illnesses that come over too fast to be put into a pod and kept static in condition. The little wars where the Wraith seem more intent on killing instantly by blasting out of the sky as opposed to scooping them up and carrying them off. Who knows if they don't also harvest after larger-scale destruction? I believe it would make more sense to use materials at hand than to leave them to waste and rot.

Apologies if I sound cold to some, I think I see from the outside in some subjects and ways.