Wraith Defenders Club

[Sparrow_hawk]

This alt. universe story could provide a real twist to the last SGA *sob* episode, that takes place in the real universe.

Can't remember who said it about a MALP, but I theought
Spoilers For Enemy At The Gate

Spoiler:

it was in Enemy at the Gate that's where as far as I'm aware that Todd and the MALP incident took place. The photo have Todd talking to the MALP. As the MALP belongs to Earth then he's probadely talking to Atlantis, after he has recovered from his illness in Infections.

Think I'm right

MCH

Thanks, MCH! My memory is shot. Too much going on!

And did anyone else notice (Infection spoiler):

Spoiler:

The retrovirus gave the Wraith and their ship Wr-AIDS!

[dasNdanger]

And did anyone else notice (Infection spoiler):

Spoiler:

The retrovirus gave the Wraith and their ship Wr-AIDS!

Oh...*GROAN*




das

[Todds worshipper]

It's 3am and I've just, finally been able to watch it.

Spoiler:

I couldn't stop crying and still can't. I'm going to get some more tissues and read all your comments now.
I'm devastated that they were so mean to him and completely heartless, especially sheppard, I could've screamed and ripped his heart out with my bare hands (unfortunately he had the protection of being inside my computer monitor).
I know they let him go but it doesn't make up for any of it...and Todd even had the decency to be kind to Sheppard as he left...he's more of a human being than they'll ever be! OMG...where are those tissues?!!!!

[GoSpikey]

Spoiler:

Like I said on the discussion thread for the episode, I think it's more like they owe each other, less about who owes what, but about helping each other out, because they are brothers.

I wouldn't really see it that way.

They've shown uptil now a 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' kinda relationship. One deed for another.

Very mixed emotions. Infection spoilers:

Spoiler:

I hated - simply hated - Sheppard up to the very end. Still...he's only fair to Todd, the rest of the Wraith he has no feelings for. I still like Keller. And Woolsey. Teyla - so-so. Ronon can go rot in hell. And I can't figure McKay out.

Todd was great...I loved seeing his more vicious, desperate side again. Still...not enough Todd. Too much time spent shooting up Wraith zombies (hubby said it was like watching a video game).

The only one who still seems to feel compassion for the Wraith as a whole is Keller...the rest could care less, and they have no qualms at committing total genocide. Again - I am having major issues with the team, and how no life is important except their own.

And I agree - Todd has sacrificed more than any of the humans - he has sacrificed his identity, his entire way of life, to try to find a new way for his kind...and the Lanteans can't even acknowledge that...not once. More thoughts later...maybe.

das

Hey das.

Spoiler:

I very much disliked what Sheppard dared to do with Todd's men as well, and how he threated him in his face. I mean, Chris was supposed to have said in an interview that Todd and Sheppard respect each other, though they don't dare to really fully trust, they do know what they are to each other.

When I see Sheppard being written in a scene with Todd, I see nothing of that respect. Should we at that point question how well the writers know Todd? Chris seems to know him much better than the writers do. If they want to turn us pro-Todd and anti-Sheppard, then that's the way to do it.

I get that the part from the previous ep TLT has to be addressed, but didn't Joe already say that they understand why he did that? Someone forgot to tell Alan about that, or so it seemed?!?

It's odd, though, that they aren't pointing at least half a finger at Ronon. Perhaps that's for EatG...

Keller shows him, or the Wraith, compassion because they're a different species than the humans, but that has nothing to do with the Wraith itself. She does not immediately see them as life-sucking beings, she would show compassion to every species.

It's strange that Todd still think of them in turns of food, since he laughed in Keller's face about her caring for Wraith. He most certainly wouldn't do that were the situation reversed. The laughing indicates it.

Teyla didn't do anything wrong in this episode.

Rodney? He didn't really wanna do what Sheppard ordered him to do. I mean, he doesn't see Todd as a life-sucking alien either, like in BAMSR. He tends to forget that.

Todd had some yummy snarls. But he did wake up on the wrong side of that pod, lol.

The shooting infected Wraith was one of the key things of the ep. They couldn't get out, and danger was around them. So they showed it, and it needed to be done like that. No probs with that, over here.

I might still have a couple of things to bring up later.

Some more thoughts on Infection...things I really liked:

Spoiler:

The info that - during hibernation - the ship exchanges fluids with the Wraith...LOVED that little tidbit...and I LOVED Sheppard's reaction to that little tidbit.

This must mean that there is a sort of symbiotic relationship between Wraith and ship.

"Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the pod" -

Todd's one hellava pilot, eh??! I think that - maybe - this is where he earned Sheppard's respect...one pilot to another - Todd landing a crippled ship, and doing so in such a way that no lives were lost. Sheppard had to be impressed.

Those are just a few things I liked. I still don't much care for the team's overall attitude towards the Wraith, though.

das

Lol

Spoiler:

Is it bad of me to picture one tentacle, or perhaps two, going up in their pants, and one to their mouth, to feed them, and take carfe of the waste? Ew!

I hope to put up a little Ship rant later.

That quote is awesome.

Todd's flying was great, yes. Took a lot of him. And still he didn't need to eat in Atlantis? How does he eat now? We didn't see the team eat, or mention it, although Todd thought they had 4 days before the ship would get destroyed.

LS - about Infection:

Spoiler:

The shoot 'em up part I had no problem with - the Wraith warriors were sick, and eating people... they had to be stopped. It was only warriors you saw, no higher, faced Wraith. I actually liked this part - loved the flesh-eating zombie Wraith.

I think Todd will be okay now - I suspect that he ends up helping them in the future...but maybe he will be a Wraith outcast because of it.

My MAIN problem is that the Lanteans still have this knee-jerk 'let's kill 'em' attitude about the Wraith as a whole...there is just no talk about preserving the species, only exterminating them as the best solution, with the gene therapy as a back-up solution - not to save the species, but only the humans.

There is some nice info about Wraith biology hundreds of thousands of years ago - I just have to go back and re-watch it (or see the transcript) to understand exactly what Todd was saying.

Excellent cranky Todd moments in this - though not a lot of Todd in general. Still, his screen time was well-used, and loved his interaction with Rodney, Keller and Shep.

It's good - it just didn't necessarily give me a warm and fuzzy feeling - not like BAMSR, and some of the other S4 eps, that's all.

das

Spoiler:

But Das, the Wraith are ALWAYS eating people. That's why indeed they have to be stopped, one way or another.

Well, perhaps they're afraid of the 'kill or be killed' thing. Besides, they're also put under pressure from that coalition, off screen, probably, not that that matters much, but the IOA wants results too. An outright war is to be avoided for as long as possible, but yeah, he does have the attitude about 'let's kill another few' while we can. Stupid that he thinks those things about Todd's hive. It doesn't put him in a good light.

I'm curious about that 'a few hundred thousand years ago' thing as well. Is he that old? I don't think the Wraith have campfire with marshmallows story telling time, so... Who knows? Probably never us.

And I agree on the 'it was good to see Todd again' part, but the general feeling of the episode, or should we say Shep's dealing with Todd, wasn't nice. Could that last scene really make up for it? Todd didn't know they had already killed the pods, crew before the backside tore off, so that's one thing he doesn't know about his precious Sheppard. He'd already killed his crew behind his back.

And wasn't this supposed to be the episode where Todd was talking to a MALP? Didn't we see that in some behind-the-scenes picture on JM's blog? Or do I have my episodes confused. Again.

It's probably been pointed out already, but that was EatG.

No I don't think your wrong. O think both the Ancients and Wraith would have security measures. The Wraith I think if they see a good idea will incorporate it into their ship. Hence to me it is feasible that a Wraith or like Teyla (if their Wraith DNA is strong enough) can operate a Wraith ship.

Looking at Shep flying a hive.

<snip>

I certainly think that Infection is going to create alot of fan comment.

MCH

Sheppard never flew a Hive, he only flies Darts. It's a 'he can fly with anything' thing.

And like I said before. I think the only 'security protocol' there is to those Darts is that whenever one reaches the Hive, they're supposed to say who they are through visual contact like in Spoils of War (can you picture an Ancient successfully do an 'I'm a Wraith Commander' impression at that point?), and like in The Lost Boys, I think, when Sheppard entered the Hive with Ford and his guys, there were Wraith Warriors whom immediately went to check who was in the Dart, so if there's a case of invasion right there, it's stopped, or most certainly announced through the attacks that'll happen.

My two cents.

Comments are good.

[GoSpikey]

It's 3am and I've just, finally been able to watch it.

Spoiler:

I couldn't stop crying and still can't. I'm going to get some more tissues and read all your comments now.
I'm devastated that they were so mean to him and completely heartless, especially sheppard, I could've screamed and ripped his heart out with my bare hands (unfortunately he had the protection of being inside my computer monitor).
I know they let him go but it doesn't make up for any of it...and Todd even had the decency to be kind to Sheppard as he left...he's more of a human being than they'll ever be! OMG...where are those tissues?!!!!

*Hug*

Some of us, or rather all of us, feel exactly that way as well...

He was mean, very mean.

But

Spoiler:

crying about it won't make it go away. Now we can only look at how they treat him in EatG. Hey, at least stuff is somewhat fixed again (even though Todd was easy on that) for Todd to warn Atlantis about trouble coming up.

Don't think too much about what they make him wear. If he came back from the Wraith, it's logical that they are to make him chance clothes to make sure he's got nothing up his sleeves. They can never be certain about when Todd has gotten a better deal than the one he has with Atlantis.

Now go find some of those tissues, blow your nose one last time, take a deep, fresh breath, and feel better again.

[Todds worshipper]

I'm just going to spoiler the whole post, sorry but it's the safest option:

Spoiler:

Yeah, I hope (infection spoiler)

Spoiler:

Todd gets his feeding slit back

but it was more of how Sheppard acted. The way he acts to Todd is two-faced. One minute he is mean and the next he is understanding. I guess it reminds me some people I know. He doesn't respect Todd, just his own ego. *Sigh* Maybe I will still watch after a few weeks. I may have just overreacted at the heat of the moment.

I've just gone straight the the MALP pictures from EatG and his right palm is conveniently not shown in any of the pics...grrrr.

I agree with das and Lythisrose

Spoiler:

Shep is pissed off about Todd's willingness to sacrifice the Daedelus -- he says as much in one of their encounters. And Shep is also a bit afraid of Todd, but I think there is more to it than that. I think Shep doth protest too much. I wonder if maybe, deep down, he does like and respect Todd, but he just can't allow himself those feelings. After all, Todd is supposed to be the enemy.

And Todd really is a damn good pilot; I just loved watching his intensity as he fought to get the ship under control! I'm not sure that was the turning point for Shep, but the whole pilot-to-pilot dynamic may have given him a new way of dealing with his feelings aobut Todd: it's o.k. to respect an enemy pilot for his skills, especially when he just used them to save you.

I think I figured out what bugged me so much about Shep in this episode.

Spoiler:

It wasn't just his wanton disregard for Todd's well-being, though that bothered me a lot.

He gets this "sucking lemons" look on his face when he is face with issues he doesn't want to deal with. My ex-husband used to get that same look when he had to do something he didn't want to be bothered with!
But I found Keller's comment about Shep very interesting:

Spoiler:

"He saves people, too. He just uses a different set of tools."

She has a very interesting perspective on things. I liked her a lot in this episode, probably because the writers did a better job with her dialogue. And I like seeing her interact with Todd!

I agree with all that. My problem is that I love Todd too much. I'll be the first to admit that. But that episode....I can't stand their treatment of him...he deserved a little bit of understanding. I have no doubt that, if it had've been reversed, they would set a hive ship on a collision course with a planet if it would save the entire human race! In fact Sheppard would do it to save the Guinea Pig his next door neighbour has for a pet on Earth!!!!

For Todd to say to Sheppard's face that they owe him this small chance at a cure to save his life, Sheppard's comment back to him was worse than a slap in the face with a dead, rotting, mouldy, wet fish. It broke my heart.

The only thing I loved were Todd's growl's.

It's a funny thing to laugh at something while you're crying your eyes out.

I've had a hell of a day/night. I've been trying to find a way to watch this episode since 6am yesterday (wasted a whole day and some 350mb on a "fake"), finally found one that works but not until just now. It's nearly 4am here, I should try to get some sleep...if I can. I'll watch the few nice bits again tomorrow. Good night guys

[Todds worshipper]

*Hug*

Some of us, or rather all of us, feel exactly that way as well...

He was mean, very mean.

But

Spoiler:

crying about it won't make it go away. Now we can only look at how they treat him in EatG. Hey, at least stuff is somewhat fixed again (even though Todd was easy on that) for Todd to warn Atlantis about trouble coming up.

Don't think too much about what they make him wear. If he came back from the Wraith, it's logical that they are to make him chance clothes to make sure he's got nothing up his sleeves. They can never be certain about when Todd has gotten a better deal than the one he has with Atlantis.

Now go find some of those tissues, blow your nose one last time, take a deep, fresh breath, and feel better again.

Thanks for the hug Spikey. I tried to green you instead but "free greening" had maxed me out I'm afraid. I'll sleep better now

[GoSpikey]

Oh yeah, I wanted to raise a few points about this episode.

Spoiler:

1. Keller was supposed to have an intelligent conversation with a Wraith (Todd). Did you think it was worth it, worth the anticipation? At this point I don't even remember which one it was anymore, lol.

2. This was, I believe, the episode in which we were to see another growth in Teyla's DNA? I didn't remember us seeing much about that? Unless the talking about 'x number of feet removed from the ocean's surface' was it? Geesh. They certainly think they can get away with a lot these days. Well, the show's been cancelled already, so nothing much more to screw up.

3. Remember when we had a lot of questions about The Seed, and the entity that created the Hive Ship? Joe Mallozzi shushed us with a 'it'll come up later' kinda thing. It was most likely that it would come up in a Todd episode, and after reading the spoilers for the eps, it would have to be this one. So, what did we find out about our earlier questions? And don't tell me everything significant got cut out. They seriously need to stop doing that then.

4. Todd's age. My suspicions about him being like 50,000 and more years old were somewhat... confirmed isn't really the word, but maybe flirted with in TLT when he said that he "was there, 10,000 years ago". Now, and I also want to see the transcript on that, he said he heard stories about the Iratus bug Queen, stories of hundreds of thousands of years ago? Wow. Does that mean he's almost that old, or are all Wraith still telling each other those kind of things? Information is power, and power could be something they don't willingly share anymore. So, does that mean he's also closer to perhaps 100,000 years old, or double, or did he just pick up the story in a campfire with marshmallows type conversation? Lol. Anyway, maybe he heard them in his function what he was back then? Do you think he was a Keeper? Although him not realising the ship could get sick when those tentacles were shoved in his fellow Wraith wasn't smart, Keeper-worthy, at all, imo.

5. The Iratus bug process. It would heal his failing immunity, or something? Since the cancer like disease is a consequence of him taking that retrovirus, does that mean only the consequences get healed, or does it 'undo' the retrovirus? Cos that's a bit odd, perhaps.

Opinions, ramblings, etc.?

[GoSpikey]

Sleep em, TW! *Kissy*

[Anon]

I will Join your Wraith Defenders Club

[MyFavoriteWraith]

@Todd's Worshipper - **hugs** I totally understand. I think I would have been crying to if I wasn't taking cold medicine that totally numbs me out. But I did feel a strong surge of sadness break through when

Spoiler:

Todd lunged at Sheppard with his feeding hand raised but then realized he was powerless. Sheppard's smug look didn't help either. $&)(&%!

The meds are probably also going to affect my ability to comment as well, but luckily most of you have already stated most of what I thought.
One thing that bothered me that most haven't really touched upon was the scene with Todd

Spoiler:

& Keller. Again, my foggy brain might not be grasping the subtler nuances, but I was expecting much more from that scene. Probably because of the spoilers "Keller has an intelligent conversation with a Wraith" kinda hyped up my expectations. (You'd think I'd learn by now.) Anyway, the feeling I got from that scene was that Todd seems to think he's got humans figured out, but Keller is explaining to him some of the finer complexities of human thought. And maybe shedding some more light on Sheppard and that maybe he and Todd aren't as similar as Todd thinks. I dunno. I did like Keller in that scene though. Even with it being Todd, I'm not sure if I could be that cool toward a Wraith that, the last time I encountered him, he'd sent me on a one-way ticket to my death!

As much as Sheppard pissed me off in this episode, it really made me feel sorry for Joe Flanigan. I found myself thinking during the episode: Sheppard is really the hero and main character of this whole series and here it is Season 5and the writers haven't really developed him beyond a very 2-dimensional character. He's an exceptional soldier/pilot and as a person, likes football, movies, Johnny Cash and beer. They've always alluded to other lighter and darker shades of his personality but they've never explored anything behind it. And I think this is why I've gone 180 degrees from liking and being charmed by this character in the beginning to totally despising him now.

Ugh, I'm having such a hard time typing and keeping my eyes open. I'll have to watch the ep again to refresh it in my foggy brain. But right now I'm off for another nap. Colds suck! lol

mfw

Edit: LOL - sorry Spikey, it took me so long to post, you already covered my meager comment! Oh well!

[Giwark]

I will Join your Wraith Defenders Club

Me too!! Please, I want to be a part of your Club!)) ^_^

[dasNdanger]

I will Join your Wraith Defenders Club

Welcome! This is an all-in-one thread - we talk all things wraith, including - but not limited to - serious, in-depth discussions on Wraith (as a whole or as individuals), their biology, history and social structure, any moral issues they raise (their own, or those of the Lanteans), and - of course - some occasional thunking. We don't whump the Wraith too much, seeing as how the Lanteans do a good enough job at that.

So, just jump in whenever you feel like it!

das

[Wraith Cake]

ok so i mustt watch it again but once eveyone has had a chance to watch infection:

Spoiler:

what do you think of todd talking about wraith history, and how at one time, hundreds of thousands of years ago wraith did not have the healing powers they have today. and that they needed to have the ictrus (?) feed off of them in order to servive a deadly illness. I wonder if this means they fed diffrently.

I don't know, I found that whole thing interesting.

Spoiler:

I'll have to re-watch it but it seemed that Todd didn't understand the iratus bug connection. Or was unclear about the terminology. Anyway, it was interesting. And someone said something about Todd getting his feeding hand back. I also thought it was interesting that Todd was excited that the "procedure" worked so well that he started to administer it to the rest of his crew--so that means he started with himself?? Wow! Also, he was excited about the procedure. Wow again!

WK

[Laura Dove]

Okay, you all are posting too fast for me again. All these discussions are really interesting and everybody makes very good points, but it's hard for me to follow you.

WK, about the discussion about wraith and morality, I'd just like to add two points. First, I can understand why a species like them would build such a society. When they have a choice between becoming like that or being wiped out, it's not really a choice, is it? That doesn't mean I like their society, but merely that I can understand and forgive them. I still hope they will evolve into something more acceptable for me, or at least, into a society that don't directly oppose mankind. If they continue to value the whole but not the individual, well... I disagree, but as long as they don't impose their views to humans, I accept it.

Second and more importantly, I refuse to blame the wraith for the writers inconsistencies. I accept what is shown/said on screen, and only that, as the absolute truth in the Stargate universe, even when it sounds scientifically absurd. So, if Beckett explains the wraith evolved from the iratus bug feeding on humans, and considering he has no reason to lie, I believe him. I do even if it would make no sense in the real world, because it's not the real world, it's a fictional world where the only true laws of physics/biology/etc. are the ones the writers want to use. On the other hand, any off-screen comment is, IMO, non-canon, even if Joe Mallozzi or any other writer is the one who says it. So until it's clearly stated as such on show, I'll continue to refuse to believe wraith wear human skin.

About "Infection", I'm as angry as everybody about Sheppard's behaviour towards Todd. Big hugs to Todd's worshipper because I feel exactly the same. Okay, I willingly admit I'm as smitten to Todd, so as subjective, as you.

Infection

Spoiler:

I was tryn to figure out why shep doesnt feel he owes todd anything.
I was adding it up and it seems that atlantis has done more negatives to Todd and he has suffered more at their hands then vice versa. I tried to break it down by eps but it got a little clustered. The biggest thing, Todd was willing to make a fundamental change to himself and his crew even after the incident in TLT. How much more can one individual give?

I posted a summary of positive and negative actions from both side in an other thread, some time ago. It was rather even, except for one point: Todd giving Sheppard's life back in "Common Ground". It was the only clear action without a second thought from both sides.

But I'd like to add something I don't remember being mentioned about "The Lost Tribe" and "Infection":

Spoiler:

If anything, thing about this: Yes, he was ready to sacrifice the entire Daedalus crew to destroy the Attero device. But after that, he could have come against Atlantis. He knew its location, obviously (I suspected as such since "BAMSR", but now we have proof), so he could have gathered all wraith with him against Atlantis. Wraith don't have enough food? Easy, just go to Earth.

But he didn't. Instead, he went along with the treatment, which lead to the death of his entire crew but him. If it isn't proof enough that he is more of a good guy than Sheppard...

I will Join your Wraith Defenders Club

Welcome. Wraith do need to be defended, these days.