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    S&R comments:

    Spoiler:
    I loved the episode - loved the birthing scene! Rodney was so perfect! I normally hate birth scenes, they are embarrassing to me (I feel embarrassed for the actors involved - that they have to pretend it all). This was not embarrassing - it was hilarious!! I would have acted just like Rodney "am I allowed to touch you down there?" LOLOL! "can you do it underhand? I was never good at baseball..." LOLOL!

    The quick birth didn't bother me - Teyla is in excellent physical condition, and all the time on the news we hear of first/second/third births that come so fast the woman has no time to get to the hospital. It does happen. They also had a short time to work with, the episode was more about saving the team than the childbirth scene.

    I like Sheppard. I think he did just fine. He was injured on his right side, if I remember correctly. That's just a gut wound, maybe his gallbladder, or intestines, damaged, but most likely it was just tissue damage and not organ damage (if it had been the left side, then his spleen would be at risk, which is certainly a more serious injury). Remember, too, that Todd said Sheppard was stronger than any human he'd ever fed upon, which tells us the type of stamina he has. He also has a strong ATA gene, which may mean even more regarding his physical condition. I don't think Sheppard was in 'critical condition' - or he would never have walked out of that infirmary. He was seriously injured, but not to the point where he couldn't function. If the bleeding had been stopped (which - for the most part - it had been, save for a little seepage. He wasn't dripping on the floor or anything), then he could certainly go on and do what he did (we can assume that Keller had given him fluids, etc. to boost his blood volume, and patched him up superficially). Should Keller have prevented him from going, like Bones McCoy would have done? Perhaps - and perhaps that would have made for a better story if it was Ronon and Shep and...who? Nah, they had to have Sheppard because no one else could have saved Teyla - not after it was established in the beginning that Sheppard has issues with leaving people behind. THAT was the theme of the episode, and of his character, and so it had to be done the way it was. I had no problems with it.

    As far as wishing there were real Wraith in it - sure, but there was too much already in the episode, adding real Wraith would have just made it all too confusing. Also remember that the PTB still consider Michael & Co. Wraith - Wraith hybrids, but Wraith nonetheless. They use Wraith tech, Wraith tactics. It is annoying because to US they are NOT Wraith. They are an...abomination.

    das
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      Interesting comments on S&R from everyone. Overall, I thought the episode was good. More specifically:

      Spoiler:
      I kind of wanted Todd to show up and rescue the team that was trapped underground, but the writers let the Atlanteans save their own. I'm o.k. with it.

      I liked following the signal through space to Michael's ship though to be honest, until you folks mentioned it, I had no clue what it was we were following. I liked the scenes with Ronon and Sheppard. I loved Rodney being the midwife for the birth of Teyla's child.

      I like the interaction between Michael and Teyla, even though it was quite short. Someone asked why Michael didn't notice Teyla was giving birth? I think he may have known she was in labor and birth was imminent, but he was a bit preoccupied with the battle. Michael didn't know that there were intruders on board at that point and Teyla was in a cell with a guard, so he wasn't worried about her getting away with the baby.

      I'm not going to get all medical about Shep and his injuries and whether or not he was physically able to go on the rescue mission. It was necessary to the plot, so it happened. It's sci-fi so I cut them a little slack with the medical stuff.

      I was disappointed in Keller. I like the actress that plays the part and I think the character has potential, but I'm disappointed at how TIMID they have made her. There was no way for her to stop Sheppard from going to rescue Teyla, so I have no complaint about that, but overall her character is just so mousy that I want to shake her! I did like it when she came out to get Shep for surgery; her little quip about poking around inside Sheppard was wonderful. I hope they let her character grow this year. As a fellow female physician, I'd really like to see her become stronger in that role. But I'm a little worried that they are not developing her as a doctor so it will be easier for Carson to step back in. Then Keller just becomes another woman for the boys to fight over.

      Also, I think Kanaan is a dud. How did Teyla ever find him so attractive that they conceived a child together?


      Thanks to everyone for all the fanfic links! I hope I'll have enough free time someday to read a few.
      Last edited by Sparrow_hawk; 12 July 2008, 07:04 PM. Reason: clarification.
      Sparrow hawk

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        Originally Posted By Das
        Spoiler:

        As far as wishing there were real Wraith in it - sure, but there was too much already in the episode, adding real Wraith would have just made it all too confusing. Also remember that the PTB still consider Michael & Co. Wraith - Wraith hybrids, but Wraith nonetheless. They use Wraith tech, Wraith tactics. It is annoying because to US they are NOT Wraith. They are an...abomination.


        OK Das abit harsh I think. I find Michael and the Hybrids interesting

        Spoiler:


        The abomination??? as I said harsh, Michael took from Beckett his retrovirus and modified it and probably has ironed out alot of the problems and used it on humans once he failed with the abominations he created in Vengeance.
        One other thought is the knowledge that the clone Beckett gained from work done on Michael and the hybrids how will Atlantis use it. Your not going to like this but
        Spoiler:
        What if this retrovirus is offered to Todd and he uses it on himself and other Wraith, are they abominations?- Not to mention I have grave doubts about a storyline like this


        I just don't know Das what to think but I do feel that the 1st abomination was Stargate Atlantis decision to do make the the retrovirus in the first place and that none of this would have happened if they had not made the retrovirus in the first place.


        The retrovirus story could be seen by some people as a reminder that while man is a very clever species, there are just some things that are better left well alone or to natural evolution thats despite thats how the Wraith came into being.

        MCH
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          Originally posted by Sparrow_hawk View Post
          Interesting comments on S&R from everyone. Overall, I thought the episode was good. More specifically:
          Spoiler:
          I kind of wanted Todd to show up and rescue the team that was trapped underground, but the writers let the Atlanteans save their own. I'm o.k. with it.

          I liked following the signal through space to Michael's ship though to be honest, until you folks mentioned it, I had no clue what it was we were following. I liked the scenes with Ronon and Sheppard. I loved Rodney being the midwife for the birth of Teyla's child.

          I like the interaction between Michael and Teyla, even though it was quite short. Why didn't he notice she was giving birth? He may have known she was in labor and birth was imminent, but he was a bit preoccupied with the battle. How could he have let them escape? Michael didn't know that there were intruders on board at that point and Teyla was in a cell with a guard.
          Mikey had NO idea that Shep was on board. Remember how shocked he was when the explosion happened? He was cocky, thought himself invincible, so didn't take the needed precautions.

          As far as Michael knowing about the baby - as I understand it, he can put thoughts in her head, but can't extract them without her opening her mind to him. She didn't open her mind, so therefore he was unaware of her labor. Also, there is every indication from this episode, and his comment about how uncomfortable carrying a child INside must be, that Wraith queens do not give birth, but all reproduction is done through egg sacs, like the masked warriors. Therefore, he may not be totally aware of how the human birthing process takes place, not aware of the signs of early labor. And, from what we can tell, he didn't take a look-see to find out if she was dialating, a good indication that birth will take place within a few hours, not days as he was expecting.

          Teyla was masking both her symptoms, and her thoughts.

          I would have loved to see Todd in this, but with all they included, his character would have been just a waste. Better to use him to the full like is promised in The Queen. I'd prefer fewer Todd episodes IF those episodes were full of Todd, and not just small appearances like in Kindred, TLM and Miller's Crossing.

          I was disappointed in Keller. I like the actress that plays the part and I think the character has potential, but I'm disappointed at how TIMID they have made her. There was no way for her to stop Sheppard from going to rescue Teyla, so I have no complaint about that, but overall her character is just so mousy that I want to shake her! I did like it when she came out to get Shep for surgery; her little quip about poking around inside Sheppard was wonderful. I hope they let her character grow this year. As a fellow female physician, I'd really like to see her become stronger in that role. But I'm a little worried that they are not developing her as a doctor so it will be easier for Carson to step back in. Then Keller just becomes another woman for the boys to fight over.
          Have you ever watched Scrubs? The main female surgeon/doctor is just like Keller. It's very entertaining. I have this one doctor (male) who is very timid, almost appologetic. There are all sorts in the medical field, and I can take Keller a lot better this way, then if she was a haughty know-it-all like a lot of OTHER doctors I know. I'd actually like Keller for a doctor, I'd feel comfortable confiding in her.

          And I loved her comment about Sheppard's insides! LOL! Made me laugh, especially her uneasiness when she realized no one was laughing. hee!

          Also, I think Kanaan is a dud. How did Teyla ever find him so attractive that they conceived a child together?
          Kanaan is a zombie right now. A zombie, with an oversized browline withOUT the benefit of pretty long, white hair. As a normal guy, he might be quite engaging. But he's controlled right now - not totally in control of himself, his mind (and thus his personality) altered to Michael's liking. Will be interesting to see what happens to him...


          das
          Last edited by dasNdanger; 12 July 2008, 05:55 PM.
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            Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
            Spoiler:
            As far as Michael knowing about the baby - as I understand it, he can put thoughts in her head, but can't extract them without her opening her mind to him. She didn't open her mind, so therefore he was unaware of her labor. Also, there is every indication from this episode, and his comment about how uncomfortable carrying a child INside must be, that Wraith queens do not give birth, but all reproduction is done through egg sacs, like the masked warriors. Therefore, he may not be totally aware of how the human birthing process takes place, not aware of the signs of early labor. And, from what we can tell, he didn't take a look-see to find out if she was dialating, a good indication that birth will take place within a few hours, not days as he was expecting.

            Teyla was masking both her symptoms, and her thoughts.


            Spoiler:
            I know that when you do a human ultrasound, you can see if the water has broken. I understand that he was using some kind of Wraith tech that he modified, but, in theory, he should still have been able to see if it had broken. That is assuming that because she said that her water had broken before that it already had, which it might not have.

            And, about their bond, in The Kindred pt 2, Teyla could feel what she called fear and he called concern coming from him. While his genetic modifications to himself may allow him to block her from feeling what he's feeling, she probably can't block him, even with the help of the baby. Besides, he wouldn't have had to read her mind, he'd just have to feel pain coming from her. I don't know if I'm right, that is just my opinion at the moment.

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              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
              Spoiler:


              Mikey had NO idea that Shep was on board. Remember how shocked he was when the explosion happened? He was cocky, thought himself invincible, so didn't take the needed precautions.
              Spoiler:
              Yep, I agree. I didn't make myself very clear in my post. I went back and rewrote it a bit.

              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
              I would have loved to see Todd in this, but with all they included, his character would have been just a waste. Better to use him to the full like is promised in The Queen. I'd prefer fewer Todd episodes IF those episodes were full of Todd, and not just small appearances like in Kindred, TLM and Miller's Crossing.
              Yes, I think that there was already too much going on and that he would have been wasted on this episode. We'll just have to wait for the Todd episodes later in the season. How many weeks until The Queen?



              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
              Have you ever watched Scrubs? The main female surgeon/doctor is just like Keller. It's very entertaining. I have this one doctor (male) who is very timid, almost appologetic. There are all sorts in the medical field, and I can take Keller a lot better this way, then if she was a haughty know-it-all like a lot of OTHER doctors I know. I'd actually like Keller for a doctor, I'd feel comfortable confiding in her.

              And I loved her comment about Sheppard's insides! LOL! Made me laugh, especially her uneasiness when she realized no one was laughing. hee!
              I really enjoyed that little bit, too. I'd like to see more of that type of stuff with Keller. OT:
              Spoiler:
              I love Scrubs! It is the only doctor show I watch and it is a lot more realistic than a lot of other doctor shows, with a bit of humor added of course (yeah, I confess. I'm a doctor). Yes, there are all kinds of doctors with all kinds of personalities. And I am aware that I am generalizing. The main female doctor in Scrubs is not a surgeon, she is an internist (internal medicine). Very different from surgery as a specialty and it attracts a very different type of person. Female surgeons have to be tough and fairly aggressive in order to make it through their training. So I just don't find the character of Keller convincing -- and the way they have Jewel Staite play her bugs me like nails on a chalkboard. O.K. I'm done ranting and I won't bring it up again.


              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
              Kanaan is a zombie right now. A zombie, with an oversized browline withOUT the benefit of pretty long, white hair. As a normal guy, he might be quite engaging. But he's controlled right now - not totally in control of himself, his mind (and thus his personality) altered to Michael's liking. Will be interesting to see what happens to him...
              That is a good point. I'll wait and give him a chance to be charming once they reverse what Michael did to him. If you need a fix of beautiful long white hair before the new SGA Wraith episodes come up, you might want to see Hellboy 2.


              Sorry this is all behind spoilers, but I know that S&R has not aired everywhere yet and I don't want to ruin it for people.
              Sparrow hawk

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                Spoiler:
                One thing that bothered me was how Ronon set Teyla down and she went to go talk to Kanaan. Now, I don't know much 'bout birthin' no babies, but I do know that that shortly after popping something the size of a watermelon out of something the size of a lemon, you're in no condition to go waddling over to anywhere for any distance. Those lady-bits are going to be seriously messed up for a while.


                But Rodney was brilliant. "My cat and I both had a kidney stone at the same time..."

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                  OK guys I won't be here for another days. Just about every one already saw "Search & Rescue". Yup! another 2 days then all the hot discussions will be gone.

                  Oh, what to do?... what to do?.... hmmm I could just twirl my thumbs and whistle " It's long, long way to Tipperary". Oh, there is work too.

                  LS

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                    Ok I've need some help here, been reading SFX July 2008 HMV have some Stargate Atlantis Season 4 Trivia on Todd on an advert.
                    I've spoilered it just in case, as I know not everybody has seen the 2 parter in mid season.
                    Spoiler:

                    From SFX > Christoper Heyerdahl, who played Todd the Wraith, had a scheduling Conflict for "Be All My Sins Remember'd" and "Spoils of War". We hear his voice, but the character is played by a different actor
                    .
                    What???

                    Has anyone mentioned this been mentioned before and I missed it? Can someone help me out here?
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                      Originally posted by MCH View Post
                      Ok I've need some help here, been reading SFX July 2008 HMV have some Stargate Atlantis Season 4 Trivia on Todd on an advert.
                      I've spoilered it just in case, as I know not everybody has seen the 2 parter in mid season.
                      Spoiler:

                      .
                      What???

                      Has anyone mentioned this been mentioned before and I missed it? Can someone help me out here?
                      Well, they actually made a little mistake.

                      Yes - Chris was not available for BAMSR, so Brendan Penny (with Heyerdahl's voice) portrayed Todd in that episode (that's why Todd looks a bit younger).

                      But Heyerdahl was available for SoW - AND the end of BAMSR. If you watch the ending of BAMSR, you will see Chris returned as Todd during the Replicator battle, while Penny assumes the role as his technician (the one who speaks to him during the battle). It is Chris under the Wraithy makeup in SoW, while Penny (a.k.a. Penny Todd) remains in the role as the technician who betrayed him (he's the one in the birthing scene, not 'granny wig' Wraith).

                      So, a summary:

                      BAMSR - all except Replicator Battle

                      Todd - Brendan Penny (voice: Chris Heyerdahl)

                      BAMSR - Replicator Battle

                      Todd - Chris Heyerdahl
                      Wraith Technician/Todd's Betrayer - Brendan Penny

                      SoW

                      Todd - Chris Heyerdahl
                      Wraith Technician/Todd's Betrayer - Brendan Penny
                      Wraith Commander - Scott Heindl


                      das
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                        Well, they actually made a little mistake.

                        Yes - Chris was not available for BAMSR, so Brendan Penny (with Heyerdahl's voice) portrayed Todd in that episode (that's why Todd looks a bit younger).

                        But Heyerdahl was available for SoW - AND the end of BAMSR. If you watch the ending of BAMSR, you will see Chris returned as Todd during the Replicator battle, while Penny assumes the role as his technician (the one who speaks to him during the battle). It is Chris under the Wraithy makeup in SoW, while Penny (a.k.a. Penny Todd) remains in the role as the technician who betrayed him (he's the one in the birthing scene, not 'granny wig' Wraith).

                        So, a summary:

                        BAMSR - all except Replicator Battle

                        Todd - Brendan Penny (voice: Chris Heyerdahl)

                        BAMSR - Replicator Battle

                        Todd - Chris Heyerdahl
                        Wraith Technician/Todd's Betrayer - Brendan Penny

                        SoW

                        Todd - Chris Heyerdahl
                        Wraith Technician/Todd's Betrayer - Brendan Penny
                        Wraith Commander - Scott Heindl


                        das
                        Thank you for that. I theought I may need my eyes testing. MCH
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                          All right, I have been a bit busy lastly and I now I feel a bit lost in all these long messages I hadn't time to reply to. Hard to catch up here when you're a week late or so.

                          I, too, find that wraith have a lot in common with cats, including the elegance and over-developed pride. It's part of what makes them so fascinating for me. Oh great, now this topic gave me an idea I won't be able to take off my mind: Do you believe wraith like to be scratched under the ears like cats do? Todd, would you please come here a moment? It's for an experience...

                          Wraithworshipper, I have at last time to reply to your message. I agree that although wraith are supposed to be closer to the iratus bug than to humans, they look very little insect-like. Not that I will complain, however: I prefer them the way they are. I agree about the hand-feeding too: it's not very realistic. Yet it appeals a lot to our imagination, I think.

                          Are you sure male wraith have telepathic abilities that they can use against humans, beyond the ability to create illusions? I've always had the impression that it is only possible with people who have wraith DNA, like Teyla.

                          Yes, the wraith enjoy feeding beyond the mere satiation of the hunger. I wonder why they never feed on unconscious humans: Is it because it tastes better, because they don't care (after all, Todd admits to Sheppard in Kolya's prison that he did not know being fed on by a wraith was so painful), because it wouldn't work?

                          As for the wraith attractiveness, I know sleek long hair, smooth skin and feline moves play a great role for me. And of course, I love vampires, so... I don't know what I would do in front of a starving wraith. I don't have children and I want none, but I think my actions would depend a great deal of the circumstances and the particular wraith. Giving my life would be an option but only if I somehow find that the wraith is worth it. I think it has more to do with my empathy, and somehow a desire to have the power of life and death, than any maternal instinct.

                          Originally posted by Wraithworshipper View Post
                          I, too, pity Michael more that hate him, and that is something for which Miachel, himelf, would hate us. He's never wanted pity. He's only wanted to be accepted somewhere by someone as a 'peer'. I hope that Michael's death will have some element of redemption in it. Redemption for him in the eyes of the others, but more than anything, redemption in Michael's eyes for the others and a measure of forgiveness for the wrongs they did to him.
                          Very well said! If only they would at least ADMIT that they wronged him terribly, if only they would APOLOGISE, that wouldn't probably change Michael's plans (it's way too late), but I don't know, it would make me feel better about him. Sometimes I wish I could enter the fictional universe to tell characters things I have the feeling should be told.

                          Originally posted by Traveler64 View Post
                          I think you've hit the nail on the head. He makes a very uncomfortable 'bad guy' and he does fail as a villain. I wish they would've taken a different path with him. I find it a bit... I don't know... illogical? Perhaps not the right word. I think the plot and story arc for Michael is too 2-dimensional given the background story. While Todd's plot line was handled very well up to now, Michael's is something of an artifice. I don't know if I make sense here...
                          Michael's story is a very sad story at the end. I hope Season 5 will bring some redemption, although I doubt that very, very much.
                          I doubt it too, alas. I don't find Michael's evolution so artificial, but awfully sad, yes. He has been betrayed by the humans he had saved, and when he turns to the wraith, they reject him and want to kill him. He is alone in the whole galaxy. In fact, even his hybrids can't ease his loneliness, because they are his slaves, not his equals. He can't trust them except by controlling them. They are no more his kind than the humans or the wraith: They are just his loyal soldiers, his creations, his pets. Not his friend or his people. And of course, it's not only because he is the only wraith-to-hybrid when all other are human-to-hybrids (which can be heard in their voices, by the way).

                          Originally posted by GoSpikey View Post
                          Teyla doesn't hate him... She felt sorry for him. She knew that she could tell his wishes to the other ones, but they would never listen to them. Just like they wouldn't listen to her opinion about experimenting on someone in the first place. Her concerns were put aside, just like the ones Ronon voiced. That's the thing about Teyla, she's an outsider to the Atlantis expedition, even though *she* and Ronon are the ones from this Galaxy, they don't respect their opinions. Teyla couldn't do much for Michael, as they don't care what she has to say.
                          If you don't know that, then I think you know nothing of the character of Teyla... Remember that she knows what it's be like to be an experiment, to have different DNA, and stuff. She sympathizes with him, why do you think he bothers explaining things to her? If they truly hated each other, then he could just as easily have taken up a knife and kill her, or the other way around. Yet they aren't doing that...
                          Really, I'm not so sure. I haven't seen her express much remorse (either to other members of the expedition or to Michael himself), and look at how she reacts in "The Kindred"! On the other hand, Michael does believe that Teyla should be able to understand. She hates him, but he does not hate her. The relation is very asymmetrical.

                          Originally posted by Inanna View Post
                          You guys like fanfic, right? I haven't written anything for SGA myself yet (though there's the beginning of a sort of twisted Michael/Teyla bunny running through my head), but I've certainly got recs. :3
                          Thanks for the recs! I already knew the last one (and I love it) but I enjoyed discovering the others. I have recs too, if you wish:

                          What is a brother for?: Another reflexion on "Miller's Crossing". Not as good as "Brother to the Executioner" or "No Easy Way" but I like it a lot.

                          Brothers in Arms: An uneasy common operation between Todd and Atlantis against Michael, that could take place in an alternate season 5. I love the interaction between Todd and the team.

                          Knowing Me, Knowing You: Ronon and Todd interaction, in an alternate universe where Todd joins Sheppard's team.

                          Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                          So, a summary:
                          BAMSR - all except Replicator Battle
                          Todd - Brendan Penny (voice: Chris Heyerdahl)
                          Yep. MCH, If you re-watch the episodes often enough, you will notice that Todd's lips are all wrong in "Be All My Sins Remember'd". Brendan Penny must be shorter than Christopher Heyerdahl, too, because he is obviously wearing shoes with very high soles. I prefer CH's Todd, but it might just be a matter of habit.
                          My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
                          Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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                            Originally posted by Laura Dove View Post
                            Are you sure male wraith have telepathic abilities that they can use against humans, beyond the ability to create illusions? I've always had the impression that it is only possible with people who have wraith DNA, like Teyla.
                            I would say that based on Michael probing Carson's mind in Misbegotten that male Wraith can use their telepathic abilities on humans. I mean, he hadn't even completely turned back into a Wraith at that time, not that he ever did after that.

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                              Just a quick hello to everyone. I'm waiting for the new season to start in the UK so I'll be back here in August. I'm looking forward to having new Wraith episodes to discuss.
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                                Originally posted by Alauralen View Post
                                I would say that based on Michael probing Carson's mind in Misbegotten that male Wraith can use their telepathic abilities on humans. I mean, he hadn't even completely turned back into a Wraith at that time, not that he ever did after that.
                                Hmm, right. Either it's an inconsistency with earlier episodes, or it's BECAUSE he is now part human: Normal wraith can't access human minds but as a hybrid, he is close enough to be able to.
                                My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
                                Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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