Wraith Defenders Club

[GoSpikey]

*g* Shan.

Still trying to match tats and language?

[Shanthaia]

not really, I just have done that once, but I don't have that many wraith writing pictures in my PB account - I just took the first 3 pictures I found

[Icarium]

Many thanks to everyone who liked my Greg wallie

Now time for a Queen



Icarium

[naamiaiset]

Many thanks to everyone who liked my Greg wallie

Now time for a Queen



Icarium

nice work as always.

[Wraith Cake]

nope that is ancient - wraith looks like that:

Spoiler:

way more artistic

Ya, you're right!! Nicer writing--Yea the wraith!!! Aaaah *happy sigh*.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

shanthaia is right, that's ancient. I translated what that says on the "outsiders" thread. wraith and ancient writing have similarities though.

ancient:

Spoiler:

Oh, neat O!! That is tre cool.

WK

[dasNdanger]

Wow - so much thought on the telepathy and name subjects...I was gonna multi-quote - but just too many comments and ideas! I will try to sum up how I feel about it, and the reasons why. I might touch on some of your ideas as I go along...or not. LOL...I'm really not sure yet - prepare for a ramble!! But first:

@ Degilwen - glad you liked the picture of me and dirty Edward!! That's an old pic of me...when I was just a wee lass of 26. I am now...older.

@ LiliJ - Joe Mallozzi said he pitched an idea for S5 that would address the subject of Wraith children. It didn't make it in - so maybe if there's a S6 it'll make it in, we will have some answers then.

@ Icarium - love your wallies, as always!! Great work!

RE: Wraith language - The pics from JM's blog seem to be that of the Ancient language. I really wish they would give us more Wraith language/script. The Wraith script is beautiful compared to Ancient - very elegant, even graceful. It would be nice to know what their spoken language sounds like, but - perhaps - they have no spoken language, or communicate in hisses and snarls.

This brings me to the telepathy discussion. It's hard to figure out where the creators are going with this - from what we know - from what has been shown to us - Wraith telepathy works like this:

1. They can communicate with one another - give orders, accept instruction, etc.

2. It has limited range. However, if many Wraith join together, their combined thoughts can reach beyond the range of a single individual.

3. They can control others with their thoughts, in effect, taking over the mind - and thus the body - of the individual. Since Teyla - a human - was able to do this to a queen, we can assume Wraith can do this to one another - to anyone who has a telepathic mind. (Though Queens can interrogate humans telepathically, it's unclear whether they can actually control that person.)

4. Wraith can 'see' through the eyes of the one they connect with. This means that they would likely have to have a 'target', which also means some way to identify that target. However, this does not mean they have 'names' - instead, they may have designations (something like 7-of-9 in Star Trek). Or, they may just concentrate on the one they want (Wraith at the command station; Wraith in the dart bay; etc). More on this in a bit....

5. Wraith can kill, it seems, with a thought. This has been suggested by Bob's 'attack' on Teyla, and the Queen's attempted attack on Teyla's baby.

6. The Wraith seem annoyed - or bored - by the chatter of humans, which indicates that telepathy works faster and more efficiently. This would make sense since the Wraith seem to be creatures who highly value efficiency, not cluttering their lives with unneccessary activities, entertainment, and possessions.

7. Being efficient, it is possible that they do not use names, or names as we know them. Would I like them to have names? No. But I would like them to have a personal identity - something they 'call' themselves, like Steve's little 'I am your death' thing. Now let's run with this....

Todd - if he has no human-type name, what would he call himself - a designation that only he appreciates? "Manipulator of Humans"? "Stargazer"? "Genii-eater"? However - whatever - he thinks of himself - that might be his 'name'...his way of setting himself from the others.

This may be how Wraith identify each other: by description, instead of having names. When I was young, I NEVER remembered kid's names, never remembered my own - it wasn't important to me, I guess. When I'd come home from school, my mom would ask me who I played with, and I'd say, "The boy with the square head", or "the girl with the green teeth". So maybe the Wraith are the same...maybe Steve was "the Wraith without a tattoo", or "the Wraith with beautiful hair"...or maybe he was known by his activities..."the Wraith who culls tasty humans", or "the Wraith who preens all day long" - you know - names like Native American names, ones that describe how they look, or what they do.

But there may not be a single word (or 'name') to go with such identification. It's just an idea - a thought - that this is the Wraith you are referring to. Telepathy allows for that - it allows for communication through word 'pictures' instead of specific names. How could they ever share this with humans? Their names would be so much more complex than ours - more complex than 'Bob', or 'Steve', or 'Todd'.

That's why I think that - if they do have names - they are very complex names, names the Wraith do not think humans could ever begin to grasp.

OR....

They have no names.

I read Alan's comments in his interview about Wraith cloning. He isn't speaking of the masked warriors, but of the male, faced Wraith (and perhaps, the Queens). He was speaking in reference to using the same actor to play more than one Wraith character (as James, Chris, Brendan, Scott, BamBam, Jeff and other actors have done). He basically said that the idea that the Wraith are cloned from 5-25 templates explains why so many look alike. It would also make sense. We have discussed Wraith sexuality, and we still don't know if the Males are able to reproduce, or if they are sterile, like mules. It would make total sense if the Male Wraith are sterile - they are albino copies of one another, suggesting a genetic glitch. It would make perfect sense that they could not reproduce - or that maybe only a few can, ones that are NOT clones, the originals.

So, since it's likely they are clones, then it is likely they do not have individual names because an individual name would suggest that the individual is special, unique, loved. But Wraith are just...Wraith. All the same...carbon copies of one another, stamped out in a production line...expendable, disposable. This may mean they have a collective thought (this has been suggested) - that when one Wraith dies, his consciousness - his thoughts and memories - are 'downloaded' into this fellow clones stamped from the same template (like the cylons in BSG). That may explain why Steve and Bob suggested that the others would know what happened to them - they may 'release' their mind upon death (The Keeper in The Rising seemed to do this).

This would mean that ....DANG!! This would mean that there's another STEVE out there!!! WOOT!!....oh, sorry...I digress...

Anyway, this would mean that they may not see a need for true, individual names...names like you and I have. Such a name would insinuate that the individual is special, and it's looking like the Wraith do not view each other as special - but as a collective, as 'Wraith' - brothers they would gladly feed upon if they were hungry enough...something that might be hard to do if you think of that individual as one who is known by a unique name. They may, instead, go by titles (Queen, commander, etc), then descriptions (Queen with red hair; Commander with star tattoo), then acheivements (Queen with red hair who culls Athosians, Commander who consorts with humans). Much easier to treat one another harshly if you only think of each other in such general terms.

Just some rambling thoughts...


das

[MCH]

Ok this has been fueled by the above telepathy debate, along with 2 large glasses of wine chased down by a very large mug of Earl Grey tea.

At 11.45pm after reading all the posts on telepathy set me off looking at various dictionarys for the meaning of Telepathy. The first from 1920 the last 2002.

The New Gresham English Dictionary belonging to my Grandfather, published around 1920 says Telepathy - TELE from Greek-meaning at a distance and PATHOS- feeling. the occult communication of facts,feeling,or impressions between persons at some distance from each other

HG Wells wrote in his bookThe Science of Life published in 1931 belonging to my father says Telepathy The possible action of one mind upon another....a sort of mental wirelesstelegraphy

In 1967 the Penguin Encyclopedia belonging to my brother calls Telepathy Extra-sensory Preception (ESP) term invented bu J.B.Rhine. He/She used ESP to include such phenomena as telepathy (direct Communication from one mind to an other. I looked up Psychical rescearch the study of reported odd and unexpected events eg thought transference, telepathy ect-(passed by way of a page on 'magic' mushrooms with holigentic properties (this is published in the 1960, by the way magic mushroom also grew in great number in the field next door to my college- I was not there in the 1960's.

Telepathy according to my copy of the New Collins Concise English Dictionary published 1982-it is the comminucation between people of theoughts,feelings ect, involving mechanisms that cannot be understood in the terms of know scientific laws.

The 2002 Chambers Crossword Dictionary belonging to me has Telepathy - ESP, sixth sense,mind reading and clairvoyance.

Now I don't have a science based mind, but on checking through the family's various dictionaries from 1920 to 2002 - while I'm sure there have been alot of rescearch in that time done, I can see in a laymans book that we are no closer to defining telepathy- (unless you write for a famous SF show)
I have read all the posts, and dismissed none of them, but (being dsylexic I be honest I had to check some words in the dictionary) they all had good points to make, but this non scientific person feels that the jury is still out if the rescearchers can't come to a scientfic conclusion then neither can we.
We all use our life experiences and education when looking at ideas and theories, and until we receive conclusive proof of telepathy and not what is written in a SF show the debate goes on. It has been a lively debate, with alot of passion expressed. Just what I have come to expect from the WDC forum.

Thank you to you all. I enjiyed it.

Ok I'm off to bed, lets hope I remember when i wake up why I left a large duster near my libaray shelf, when the tea and the wine have worn off.

MCH

[Wraith Cake]

Wow - so much thought on the telepathy and name subjects...I was gonna multi-quote - but just too many comments and ideas! I will try to sum up how I feel about it, and the reasons why. I might touch on some of your ideas as I go along...or not. LOL...I'm really not sure yet - prepare for a ramble!! But first:

@ Degilwen - glad you liked the picture of me and dirty Edward!! That's an old pic of me...when I was just a wee lass of 26. I am now...older.

@ LiliJ - Joe Mallozzi said he pitched an idea for S5 that would address the subject of Wraith children. It didn't make it in - so maybe if there's a S6 it'll make it in, we will have some answers then.

@ Icarium - love your wallies, as always!! Great work!

RE: Wraith language - The pics from JM's blog seem to be that of the Ancient language. I really wish they would give us more Wraith language/script. The Wraith script is beautiful compared to Ancient - very elegant, even graceful. It would be nice to know what their spoken language sounds like, but - perhaps - they have no spoken language, or communicate in hisses and snarls.

This brings me to the telepathy discussion. It's hard to figure out where the creators are going with this - from what we know - from what has been shown to us - Wraith telepathy works like this:

1. They can communicate with one another - give orders, accept instruction, etc.

2. It has limited range. However, if many Wraith join together, their combined thoughts can reach beyond the range of a single individual.

3. They can control others with their thoughts, in effect, taking over the mind - and thus the body - of the individual. Since Teyla - a human - was able to do this to a queen, we can assume Wraith can do this to one another - to anyone who has a telepathic mind. (Though Queens can interrogate humans telepathically, it's unclear whether they can actually control that person.)

4. Wraith can 'see' through the eyes of the one they connect with. This means that they would likely have to have a 'target', which also means some way to identify that target. However, this does not mean they have 'names' - instead, they may have designations (something like 7-of-9 in Star Trek). Or, they may just concentrate on the one they want (Wraith at the command station; Wraith in the dart bay; etc). More on this in a bit....

5. Wraith can kill, it seems, with a thought. This has been suggested by Bob's 'attack' on Teyla, and the Queen's attempted attack on Teyla's baby.

6. The Wraith seem annoyed - or bored - by the chatter of humans, which indicates that telepathy works faster and more efficiently. This would make sense since the Wraith seem to be creatures who highly value efficiency, not cluttering their lives with unneccessary activities, entertainment, and possessions.

7. Being efficient, it is possible that they do not use names, or names as we know them. Would I like them to have names? No. But I would like them to have a personal identity - something they 'call' themselves, like Steve's little 'I am your death' thing. Now let's run with this....

Todd - if he has no human-type name, what would he call himself - a designation that only he appreciates? "Manipulator of Humans"? "Stargazer"? "Genii-eater"? However - whatever - he thinks of himself - that might be his 'name'...his way of setting himself from the others.

This may be how Wraith identify each other: by description, instead of having names. When I was young, I NEVER remembered kid's names, never remembered my own - it wasn't important to me, I guess. When I'd come home from school, my mom would ask me who I played with, and I'd say, "The boy with the square head", or "the girl with the green teeth". So maybe the Wraith are the same...maybe Steve was "the Wraith without a tattoo", or "the Wraith with beautiful hair"...or maybe he was known by his activities..."the Wraith who culls tasty humans", or "the Wraith who preens all day long" - you know - names like Native American names, ones that describe how they look, or what they do.

But there may not be a single word (or 'name') to go with such identification. It's just an idea - a thought - that this is the Wraith you are referring to. Telepathy allows for that - it allows for communication through word 'pictures' instead of specific names. How could they ever share this with humans? Their names would be so much more complex than ours - more complex than 'Bob', or 'Steve', or 'Todd'.

That's why I think that - if they do have names - they are very complex names, names the Wraith do not think humans could ever begin to grasp.

OR....

They have no names.

I read Alan's comments in his interview about Wraith cloning. He isn't speaking of the masked warriors, but of the male, faced Wraith (and perhaps, the Queens). He was speaking in reference to using the same actor to play more than one Wraith character (as James, Chris, Brendan, Scott, BamBam, Jeff and other actors have done). He basically said that the idea that the Wraith are cloned from 5-25 templates explains why so many look alike. It would also make sense. We have discussed Wraith sexuality, and we still don't know if the Males are able to reproduce, or if they are sterile, like mules. It would make total sense if the Male Wraith are sterile - they are albino copies of one another, suggesting a genetic glitch. It would make perfect sense that they could not reproduce - or that maybe only a few can, ones that are NOT clones, the originals.

So, since it's likely they are clones, then it is likely they do not have individual names because an individual name would suggest that the individual is special, unique, loved. But Wraith are just...Wraith. All the same...carbon copies of one another, stamped out in a production line...expendable, disposable. This may mean they have a collective thought (this has been suggested) - that when one Wraith dies, his consciousness - his thoughts and memories - are 'downloaded' into this fellow clones stamped from the same template (like the cylons in BSG). That may explain why Steve and Bob suggested that the others would know what happened to them - they may 'release' their mind upon death (The Keeper in The Rising seemed to do this).

This would mean that ....DANG!! This would mean that there's another STEVE out there!!! WOOT!!....oh, sorry...I digress...

Anyway, this would mean that they may not see a need for true, individual names...names like you and I have. Such a name would insinuate that the individual is special, and it's looking like the Wraith do not view each other as special - but as a collective, as 'Wraith' - brothers they would gladly feed upon if they were hungry enough...something that might be hard to do if you think of that individual as one who is known by a unique name. They may, instead, go by titles (Queen, commander, etc), then descriptions (Queen with red hair; Commander with star tattoo), then acheivements (Queen with red hair who culls Athosians, Commander who consorts with humans). Much easier to treat one another harshly if you only think of each other in such general terms.

Just some rambling thoughts...


das

Interesting, interesting. I like your observations. Would you send me a link to that article the writer for stargate was talking about? I really want to see the "hive" mind of the writers.
As an aside, I hope on the other hand, that they are not all "copies" of each other. My background is in linguistics and language theory (this was my university thesis) and although I know that not all sci fi writing has to do with "science" per say (Ray Bradbury), this is part of the definition of sci fi and part of what I love about the genre. My man's background is English and Science/Computer Engineering. So now I am inundated with hard science floating around in my mind. I can't really divorce what I see, especially when the writers put up a veneer of science, from what I know. Hrumph... also, just because I was thinking about the reproducing thing: if the male wraith could not reproduce they would have to be programmed not to specifically--at least that's what I know of cloning. Mules cannot, by in large reproduce, because they are hybrids not clones. All clones, or in this case "drones" can reproduce--in the insect world they are simply not given the "privilege" of it. Know what I mean jelly bean? Did you really know a girl in school with green teeth? ha ha ha ha.

WK

[MCH]

So, since it's likely they are clones, then it is likely they do not have individual names because an individual name would suggest that the individual is special, unique, loved. But Wraith are just...Wraith. All the same...carbon copies of one another, stamped out in a production line...expendable, disposable. This may mean they have a collective thought (this has been suggested) - that when one Wraith dies, his consciousness - his thoughts and memories - are 'downloaded' into this fellow clones stamped from the same template (like the cylons in BSG). That may explain why Steve and Bob suggested that the others would know what happened to them - they may 'release' their mind upon death (The Keeper in The Rising seemed to do this).

You remind me of the BORG. But they where definately not as pretty well dressed or as graceful as the wraith. Can still see Steve fighting Teyal all grace and flying hair, till Shep shot him- he did save Teyal life through.

Right must go to bed now I'm working in a few hours today.

MCH

[MCH]

MCH again

Re my last 2 posts 9604 and 9606, sorry for any grammer/spelling mistakes that I missed after checking both before posting- my Laptop let me post, put in quotes ect but drew a line on the edit button.

Sorrieeeeee. MCH

[Wraith Cake]

Ok this has been fueled by the above telepathy debate, along with 2 large glasses of wine chased down by a very large mug of Earl Grey tea.

I just had dinner; on my second class of wine and yep I can still see tea in my tea cup

At 11.45pm after reading all the posts on telepathy set me off looking at various dictionarys for the meaning of Telepathy. The first from 1920 the last 2002....

I love it. And I mean who knows, beyond wearing the same coloured top as a colleague at work, I don't know how much "telepathy" there can ever really be between humans--maybe that's a good thing. I wonder if telepathy exists in nature, I don't think so. hmmmm...I love the definitions you've found.

Now I don't have a science based mind, but on checking through the family's various dictionaries from 1920 to 2002 - while I'm sure there have been alot of rescearch in that time done, I can see in a laymans book that we are no closer to defining telepathy- (unless you write for a famous SF show)

Completely, night, night.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

You remind me of the BORG. But they where definately not as pretty well dressed or as graceful as the wraith. Can still see Steve fighting Teyal all grace and flying hair, till Shep shot him- he did save Teyal life through.

Right must go to bed now I'm working in a few hours today.

MCH

Also keep in mind, that a cloned human or any other sentient person is no less a person. Identical twins are clones of each other (more or less), they have exactly the same DNA and fingerprint. Clones simply do not have the same resilience to disease as non-cloned individuals and their genes degenerate a lot faster. They degenerate a lot faster because typically clones are cells derived from "adult" stem cells: the original cell is already half grown. Remember the Beckett episode where Dr. Jewel (what's her name in the show) was able to show that Beckett was a clone? His DNA (or whatever they're actually called) are derived from original "adult" cells. So clones=people=individuals.

WK (I know science brain creeping in again)

[Wraith Cake]

MCH again

Re my last 2 posts 9604 and 9606, sorry for any grammer/spelling mistakes that I missed after checking both before posting- my Laptop let me post, put in quotes ect but drew a line on the edit button.

Sorrieeeeee. MCH

Never worry. I'm just glad you post.

WK

[Karhedron]

Also keep in mind, that a cloned human or any other sentient person is no less a person. Identical twins are clones of each other (more or less), they have exactly the same DNA and fingerprint. Clones simply do not have the same resilience to disease as non-cloned individuals and their genes degenerate a lot faster. They degenerate a lot faster because typically clones are cells derived from "adult" stem cells: the original cell is already half grown. Remember the Beckett episode where Dr. Jewel (what's her name in the show) was able to show that Beckett was a clone? His DNA (or whatever they're actually called) are derived from original "adult" cells. So clones=people=individuals.

WK (I know science brain creeping in again)

You're contradicting your own theory with the Beckett-example. Michael did not only clone Beckett's body but he "copied" Carson's mind. So it is most likely that the Wraith do not only use DNA for their templates but also brain patterns. Maybe aside from the Queens. So they are no individuals but exact copies.

Edit: Identical twins have different fingerprints.
The degeneration of the Carson-clone was mentioned to be probably done on purpose by Michael. He gave him a medicine slowing the process down (or even stopping it) which forced the clone to stay with him or die.