Wraith Defenders Club

[Shanthaia]

Hunger? Or rather next meal? When he fed on Shep he thought that he had a chance for another one. And when he tried to escape he surely was going to die. Maybe he never really counted on escape but rather on rescue. When he was captured most Wraith were hibernating and perhaps he was waiting for the next awakening. I wonder if other Wraith found him in such devastated state would they really respect them? Or would he be just a wimp that allowed himself to be captured and broken? I'm curious if his story about his disappearance was a detailed one. Did he admit to his fellow Wraith how devastated he was? How did he gain their trust again?
Or maybe I just look at that from a human point of view

Icarium

That sounds reasonable!

Hm, the comming back part. He had a high standing once so was far surprior than the average wraith. Would he have a need to explain.
The Wraith in Rising didn't explain anything to the lowly food

[naamiaiset]

maybe... but todd didn't have the "need for acceptance" issue that michael had after escaping. todd did try wiping out the other wraith afterall. given that, I don't think he was waiting on rescue or felt a need to explain himself.

[Icarium]

That sounds reasonable!

Hm, the comming back part. He had a high standing once so was far surprior than the average wraith. Would he have a need to explain.
The Wraith in Rising didn't explain anything to the lowly food

Still he had to state a reason why he suddenly appears out of the blue and why he was missing. Not to mention his looks... And imagine some ambitious technicians happy to get rid of Todd. Power was just within their grasp when he comes back and what? Maybe he plotted with a rival hive, he failed and now escaped? I think they must have been suspicious.

Icarium

[Shanthaia]

Still he had to state a reason why he suddenly appears out of the blue and why he was missing. Not to mention his looks... And imagine some ambitious technicians happy to get rid of Todd. Power was just within their grasp when he comes back and what? Maybe he plotted with a rival hive, he failed and now escaped? I think they must have been suspicious.

Icarium

Yeah, he probably would have to explain to some people higher up the hirachy why he was in a state. But I just don't know enough about wraith culture and social behavior as to speculate on what he might have told them.

[GoSpikey]

I would have served kolya to todd myself.

I've thought about that a bit, myself.

You put two cells next to each other, in between them only a power barrier, nothing else structure wise, and that barrier is of course made out of some ten different beams.

You ask Todd to come to Atlantis, because they have a special threat for him. In meanwhile, you have Kolya in the infirmary, checking him for bugs and stuff, don't want Todd to die.

Todd could have a bench in his cell part, not Kolya, though. He's gonna sweat, instead.

You first put Todd in the cell, and ask him to be patient for a bit, that his food will soon be served. You bring in Kolya with a bag over his head, and make him go sit down on his knees, for starters. Then you untie his hands, and you go out of the room, and you make sure the cameras are on.

Kolya will pull the bag from his head, and try to get up. Turns out he'd better not have done so. Because he sees a Wraith like figure sitting at the other end of the other cell. Todd, who sees what the Lanteans have given him, will get up, and stand as close to Kolya as possible, with a smile on his face, insuring panic in the other prisoner's face.

Eventually he'll pace around a bit, get his prey nervous, and sit down again, waiting patiently. Then one of the beams shuts down. Kolya looks a bit panicked, Todd smiles. He knows what the game is now. Every 20 minutes or so a beam will shut down, and it won't take too long before he can step into the other prisoner's cell and enjoy his sweet revenge...

Told you I thought of this just a bit.

Okay, maybe a bit more.

[naamiaiset]

I've often thought about that a bit, myself.

You put two cells next to each other, in between them only a power barrier, nothing else structure wise, and that barrier is of course made out of some ten different beams.

You ask Todd to come to Atlantis, because they have a special threat for him. In meanwhile, you have Kolya in the infirmary, checking him for bugs and stuff, don't want Todd to die.

Todd could have a bench in his cell part, not Kolya, though. He's gonna sweat, instead.

You first put Todd in the cell, and ask him to be patient for a bit, that his food will soon be served. You bring in Kolya with a bag over his head, and make him go sit down on his knees, for starters. Then you unleash his hands, and you go out of the room, and you make sure the cameras are on.

Kolya will pull the bag from his head, and try to get up. Turns out he'd better not have done so. Because he sees a Wraith like figure sitting at the other end of the other cell. Todd, who sees what the Lanteans have given him, will get up, and stand as close to Kolya as possible, with a smile on his face, insuring panic in the other prisoner's face.

Eventually he'll pace around a bit, get his prey nervous, and sit down again, waiting patiently. Then one of the beams shuts down. Kolya looks a bit panicked, Todd smiles. He knows what the game is now. Every 20 minutes or so a beam will shut down, and it won't take too long before he can step into the other prisoner's cell and enjoy his sweet revenge...

Told you I thought of this just a bit.

Okay, maybe a bit more.

you know how much I would have liked to see that now?

Yeah, he probably would have to explain to some people higher up the hirachy why he was in a state. But I just don't know enough about wraith culture and social behavior as to speculate on what he might have told them.

todd's explanation (if he needed one) might've been as simple as "such and such happened, but it's over and doesn't matter" and being very vague about the details. from what we've seen, he doesn't really answer to anyone.

[Icarium]

But I just don't know enough about wraith culture and social behavior as to speculate on what he might have told them.

Relax! Isn't our motto:
Speculation is fun?




Icarium

[Shanthaia]

@GoSpikey:
Not bad, not bad...but would Todd enjoy it as he is patient or would it be a bit of torture to him as well?

[naamiaiset]

Relax! Isn't our motto:
Speculation is fun?




Icarium

[Icarium]

I've thought about that a bit, myself.

You put two cells next to each other, in between them only a power barrier, nothing else structure wise, and that barrier is of course made out of some ten different beams.

You ask Todd to come to Atlantis, because they have a special threat for him. In meanwhile, you have Kolya in the infirmary, checking him for bugs and stuff, don't want Todd to die.

Todd could have a bench in his cell part, not Kolya, though. He's gonna sweat, instead.

You first put Todd in the cell, and ask him to be patient for a bit, that his food will soon be served. You bring in Kolya with a bag over his head, and make him go sit down on his knees, for starters. Then you untie his hands, and you go out of the room, and you make sure the cameras are on.

Kolya will pull the bag from his head, and try to get up. Turns out he'd better not have done so. Because he sees a Wraith like figure sitting at the other end of the other cell. Todd, who sees what the Lanteans have given him, will get up, and stand as close to Kolya as possible, with a smile on his face, insuring panic in the other prisoner's face.

Eventually he'll pace around a bit, get his prey nervous, and sit down again, waiting patiently. Then one of the beams shuts down. Kolya looks a bit panicked, Todd smiles. He knows what the game is now. Every 20 minutes or so a beam will shut down, and it won't take too long before he can step into the other prisoner's cell and enjoy his sweet revenge...

Told you I thought of this just a bit.

Okay, maybe a bit more.

We should ask @das for an appropriate dialogue, probably starting:

Todd: Do you blame Sheppard or the Wraith?

... sorry, I have no talents for writing dialogue

Icarium

[dasNdanger]

Yeah. I've been just a tad melancholy lately, and so many of the Wraith pics, along with much Wraith history (as we know it), just seem to feed into the skewed thinking I'm going through right now...it's occurred to me in the last few days that my pomeranian is somewhere around 11yrs old. He's starting to show it, and I'm starting to feel it.

*hugs*

Yeah - some of this talk makes me melancholy, too...even when I dwell on the more 'twisted' aspects of Wraith culture. I guess it's expected when you're fans of the guys who always get killed in the end...

Hope your pup sticks around for a while yet. We love our pets, and never want them to leave us...but eventually they do. I find consolation in the fact that there are SO many other animals out there who need homes, that when a hole is made in mine (I have 4 cats right now), I can quickly fill it with a new, and deserving, bundle of fur. *sigh* Wish we could do that with the Wraith...

Think of Barbosa, Bob and Todd as the "old guard", their lifespans litterally measuring who knows how many millenia. Then you have the dapper youngsters, like Steve, Shawn, Archimedes, who we have no idea how old they are in our timeline, but they're killed without really having the kind of "down-and-dirty-fight-for-survival" life experiences of the old guard. It's no wonder they're arrogant as opposed to just plain brutal. I'm not complaining about their lack of brutality, mind you, but it's their arrogance that's getting them eliminated before Wraith like Todd can pass on their hard earned knowledge. Todd's experiences have born in him his long range view of the struggle. The Wraith young are being killed off before they can develop any mature view point concerning the survival of the Wraith as a species. It's almost like they really don't even have a strategic view for the survival of their own hives. They're leaving that to their elders. Where are the Wraith young to follow the likes of Todd, or even Barbosa?

I think Wraith culture is just in a turmoil right now. Had they awakened when they were supposed to - a few hundred years from now - they'd have plenty of time to train the younger Wraith, and pass along their experience (provided that the ones we BELIEVE are older really are, and the ones like Steve are truly younger). But, just like bees attacking the hives of other bees, the Wraith have lashed out at each other in a fierce battle for territory. Very interesting study of their culture, since - although they are HIGHLY intelligent, they can't avoid their nature, and their instincts. This attacking of their own kind is so insect-like...really is fascinating when you think about it. I mean...Todd KNOWS there are different ways to 'win' - and yet he's intent on killing off his own, even after revealing his knowledge that the Ancients were defeated because of the sheer NUMBERS of Wraith attacking them. How will they ever defeat the Lanteans, or get to earth, if they aren't supported by those same numbers? But poor Todd, he can't help what he is, and so if killing your own means more food for you...well, so be it.

The Wraith are also falling prey to the very thing that brought the Ancients down - their arrogance. Todd may be the ONLY Wraith who has gotten over his pride, all the others have thought fairly highly of themselves. But Todd knows how fragile life can be - he knows what it means to make mistakes - and he knows what it's like having his life returned to him. I think that he is truly the only Wraith who appreciates life at all, and still...he's intent on destroying his own kind so that there will be food around for him.

Would love to get this guy on a psychologist's couch...

If he regretted being captured alive - does that not contradict the effectfulness of the death threat? And it sounded very much like he regretted it as he said: I merely allowed myself to be captured alive. Poor Todd

It's one thing to be killed in battle - and another to be captured, and given a 'choice'. I think even someone who would have preferred to die suddenly in battle will still do whatever they can to survive once in captivity.

Wraith attitude to death is a bit confusing. Some of them say they want to live (Michael in NML, Todd, Traveller's survivor) but at the same time they carry self-destruct devices (Steve) or go on a suicide missions (Bob). I don't take into account drones. I think Todd could have been threatened with death at the beginning of his imprisonment to the point when the Genii saw that he doesn't really care. Maybe that was the point when they stopped torturing him because they knew they broke him finally and since that moment they despised him. He reached the bottom of his degradation and they didn't bother themselves anymore.

Somewhere I read that the Wraith are driven by their determination to survive (which includes satisfying their hunger), and that all their intellect and energies are spent on trying to be better, more efficent fighters, hunters and feeders. So, down inside they WANT to live. So why the self-destruct devices? Well, think about it. If they are captured - who's going to capture them? Humans. Are humans (as a rule) going to feed them? NO. So, for Wraith, captivity means only one thing: Death by starvation. Much better to end it quickly then slowly waste away. Also, with captivity they are threatened with torture, experimentation, and humiliation - all of which we've seen in the Wraith captured by the Genii and Lanteans. So...yeah - blowing themselves up is a much better way for their kind to go...

poor buggers.

what kept todd going for all the years? he'd given up hope of escape, so that wasn't it. I've never figured that out.

I got the impression that he was depressed and depression can play havoc with one's ability to think straight or make choices. A depressed person can be presented with suggestions which could help solve the problems they're depressed about but they tend to see negativity everywhere and just 'know' nothing will work.

stubborness maybe? or a very small hope he might still escape? I can't think of any other reason.

Eating Koyla ?!

I DO believe he thought about it more than once - we see how he leers at Kolya after that third feeding...he really wanted a 'taste' of him, certain sure!

As far as what kept Todd going, and why he hadn't tried to kill himself, or get himself killed - well...obviously, he wanted to live. Perhaps he was 'captured alive' because he didn't use his self-destruct mechanism. Even if he was starving, at least they were feeding him SOMETHING. Not a great life, but at least it WAS life. And maybe, deep down inside, he did still hope to be rescued...just a little flicker inside somewhere that told him not to give up. That may be why he said Shep was more like Wraith then he realized - NOT because humans were coming to rescue him (he didn't say 'humans' are more like Wraith - but that SHEPPARD was) - but because, like Sheppard, Todd held out hope of rescue, and - also like Sheppard - was determined to stay alive until that rescue came.

That's just a thought...

das

[GoSpikey]

you know how much I would have liked to see that now?

Me too, me too. The shooting of Kolya was so... Anticlimactic to what could have been done to him.

todd's explanation (if he needed one) might've been as simple as "such and such happened, but it's over and doesn't matter" and being very vague about the details. From what we've seen, he doesn't really answer to anyone.

I wonder what Todd was threated like, were he taken to a Queen. Did she recognize him? Did she threat him with respect? Did she not do such a thing because of what he looked like? Did she patiently listen to his story?

Or was he taken to a Commander? Things are tough amongst the ladies, but what about the Commanders? There must be some fierce competition about being the strongest male, too, right? Imagine Todd having been taken to the Commander from Sateda. Would he have killed him if he were to recognize the face of one of his worst competitors?

It had better been a Queen...

Maybe he charmed his way out? If he was up to it. I just wish that Sheppard would have said 'good luck' before stepping backwards. After all, after the Michael story, he knows a bit of what Todd might have had to face...

And I can't help but wonder too, that, if they knew Todd before they did that stuff with Mikey, and let's say they had some kind of contact with him, would they have tried contacting Todd to ask him to take Michael in? Todd understands torture, and if Michael promised to let his hair grow out again (like he'd need to do that) and if he behaved Wraith-like, would he have found a home again?

@GoSpikey:
Not bad, not bad...but would Todd enjoy it as he is patient or would it be a bit of torture to him as well?

That's why Sheppard needs to reassure him it's not meant as torture for him, and that he'll go free right after that!

We should ask @das for an appropriate dialogue, probably starting:

Todd: Do you blame Sheppard or the Wraith?

... sorry, I have no talents for writing dialogue

Icarium

Now it really needs to start like that!

[Wraithworshipper]

rodney's pistol incident (that sounds weird ) was way back in season one. since then, I'd say rodney's development is believable. without it we wouldn't have had the scenes between him and todd. there's still the mckay of season one that shows through when dealing with wraith though. such as, todd threatening to feed on him and his very nervous "right... I'll just work in this area" line. I thought that was great.

That's exactly what I meant. Rodney now is not Rodney of then, but he didn't morph into the character he is now overnight! I hate when character personallities are morphed too quickly. That's one reason I liked the SG-1 movie. There was none of that. I'm sorry if I confused you on that point. Imagine how we'd have reacted to McKay going Rambo on us during season one? Never would have bought it!

Wraithie

[naamiaiset]

And I can't help but wonder too, that, if they knew Todd before they did that stuff with Mikey, and let's say they had some kind of contact with him, would they have tried contacting Todd to ask him to take Michael in? Todd understands torture, and if Michael promised to let his hair grow out again (like he'd need to do that) and if he behaved Wraith-like, would he have found a home again?

todd "mentoring" michael? think about that. michael most likely would've still felt bitter and rejected, only now with an asset like todd at his side - if michael could convince him to join him in his plans. michael's been able to make his own army, imagine what he could do with todd's brain helping him.

That's exactly what I meant. Rodney now is not Rodney of then, but he didn't morph into the character he is now overnight! I hate when character personallities are morphed too quickly. That's one reason I liked the SG-1 movie. There was none of that. I'm sorry if I confused you on that point. Imagine how we'd have reacted to McKay going Rambo on us during season one? Never would have bought it!

Wraithie

think of rodney saying rambo's line "say hello to my little friend" (the big gun) only to have the gun barrel fall out.

[Wraithworshipper]

*hugs*

Yeah - some of this talk makes me melancholy, too...even when I dwell on the more 'twisted' aspects of Wraith culture. I guess it's expected when you're fans of the guys who always get killed in the end...

Hope your pup sticks around for a while yet. We love our pets, and never want them to leave us...but eventually they do. I find consolation in the fact that there are SO many other animals out there who need homes, that when a hole is made in mine (I have 4 cats right now), I can quickly fill it with a new, and deserving, bundle of fur. *sigh* Wish we could do that with the Wraith...

Thank you much. All my babies, except for my rat babies, have been strays, rescues or pound puppies. This one included. My cat belonged to an elderly neighbor who I found after she'd had a stroke. I literally promised her on her deathbed I'd keep her cat.

I think Wraith culture is just in a turmoil right now. Had they awakened when they were supposed to - a few hundred years from now - they'd have plenty of time to train the younger Wraith, and pass along their experience (provided that the ones we BELIEVE are older really are, and the ones like Steve are truly younger). But, just like bees attacking the hives of other bees, the Wraith have lashed out at each other in a fierce battle for territory. Very interesting study of their culture, since - although they are HIGHLY intelligent, they can't avoid their nature, and their instincts. This attacking of their own kind is so insect-like...really is fascinating when you think about it. I mean...Todd KNOWS there are different ways to 'win' - and yet he's intent on killing off his own, even after revealing his knowledge that the Ancients were defeated because of the sheer NUMBERS of Wraith attacking them. How will they ever defeat the Lanteans, or get to earth, if they aren't supported by those same numbers? But poor Todd, he can't help what he is, and so if killing your own means more food for you...well, so be it.

The Wraith are also falling prey to the very thing that brought the Ancients down - their arrogance. Todd may be the ONLY Wraith who has gotten over his pride, all the others have thought fairly highly of themselves. But Todd knows how fragile life can be - he knows what it means to make mistakes - and he knows what it's like having his life returned to him. I think that he is truly the only Wraith who appreciates life at all, and still...he's intent on destroying his own kind so that there will be food around for him.

Would love to get this guy on a psychologist's couch...



It's one thing to be killed in battle - and another to be captured, and given a 'choice'. I think even someone who would have preferred to die suddenly in battle will still do whatever they can to survive once in captivity.



Somewhere I read that the Wraith are driven by their determination to survive (which includes satisfying their hunger), and that all their intellect and energies are spent on trying to be better, more efficent fighters, hunters and feeders. So, down inside they WANT to live. So why the self-destruct devices? Well, think about it. If they are captured - who's going to capture them? Humans. Are humans (as a rule) going to feed them? NO. So, for Wraith, captivity means only one thing: Death by starvation. Much better to end it quickly then slowly waste away. Also, with captivity they are threatened with torture, experimentation, and humiliation - all of which we've seen in the Wraith captured by the Genii and Lanteans. So...yeah - blowing themselves up is a much better way for their kind to go...

poor buggers.

I DO believe he thought about it more than once - we see how he leers at Kolya after that third feeding...he really wanted a 'taste' of him, certain sure!

As far as what kept Todd going, and why he hadn't tried to kill himself, or get himself killed - well...obviously, he wanted to live. Perhaps he was 'captured alive' because he didn't use his self-destruct mechanism. Even if he was starving, at least they were feeding him SOMETHING. Not a great life, but at least it WAS life. And maybe, deep down inside, he did still hope to be rescued...just a little flicker inside somewhere that told him not to give up. That may be why he said Shep was more like Wraith then he realized - NOT because humans were coming to rescue him (he didn't say 'humans' are more like Wraith - but that SHEPPARD was) - but because, like Sheppard, Todd held out hope of rescue, and - also like Sheppard - was determined to stay alive until that rescue came.

That's just a thought...

das

I can really understand a lot of what you've said here. For instance, there's Michael's need for acceptance. From what I'd gathered, Michael was of the younger generation. One of what I refer to as the "dandies". Todd has lived so long, and experienced so much, he doesn't really care what anyone thinks of him. He's made it perfectly clear, he's in this for the survival of the Wraith of his own hive! The rest of the Wraith be damned.

As for Todd's having allowed himself to be taken hostage...I do believe the problem was that he didn't fight to the death as many of the "old guard" would have, therefore he would be looked down upon by his peers. I don't think that it was ever actually his intention to become a captive; he simply didn't prevent himself from being taken alive. Being in a situation of having to choose captivity or death, once having chosen to live, I think I'd be very hard put not to continue to choose to live, no matter how bad it got.

I once knew a man who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam. He said, "No one wants to be taken prisoner. Everyone thinks about how they'll go down fighting rather than being taken, but once that gun's in your face, all you can do is pray for life, escape/rescue. Then...once you're in the cell, you pray for life, escape/rescue, food. After a few weeks, you pray for life, home, family, food. When the months start adding up, you just don't notice anymore. Each day is just another day of misery, but it's still life...if you're lucky, some sunlight's thrown in."