Wraith Defenders Club

[Wraith Cake]

I would just like to add a comment:

Intelligence gives us a choice - we can choose to give in to our instincts or we can choose to go against our instinct, animals don't have this choice, they follow their instincts.

I heard of an example once where a monkey was crossing a flooding river with its baby on its chest clinging to it, the mother monkey had no idea that the babies head was under water, so it drowned. My point here is a human mother crossing the river would have made sure her babies head was above the water so it would not drown.

We can reason, we can choose to follow or not, we have self will, self aware, and therefore we have responsibility to the rest of nature, to look after it and ensure its survival. This is what sets us apart from all the other animals and insects, because we can choose to show compassion, we can choose to show kindness OR Not! We have a choice, and bringing it all back to the wraith, this is what Todd sees in the Lantians, they choose to be individuals, and Todd has chosen to be above his instinct, as is evident in Millers Crossing, he could have given into his instincts and fed on the guards and Rodney in the lab, but he didn't, he chose not to, hoping their compassion would feed him!

Anyway thats how I look at it. The choice is yours!

I think this is very beautifully put!!


WK

[Wraith Cake]

I agree whole heartedly - intelligence gives the ability to control primal instincts and both human and wraih have that ability - which means that a wraith COULD choose not to feed on a human, especially if he had developed an emotional attachment to that human.
For example in the news today about the lion, Christian, who had formed an attachment to two guys and was then set free in the wild. At a later meeting, that lion did not attck them, he embraced them affectionately! Not only that but he prevented the other lions in his pride from attacking them!

IMHO if a lion can do it, so can a wraith! Can't you, Todd? *snuggle*

I honestly think cats are very noble creatures. I love lions.


WK

[Solla]

Hello to all! Don´t want to intrude and interrupt your discussion, but I finally found some time to take a look in here.
Thanks for invitation Draco-Stellaris. *waves hi*
I enjoy your discussions. They are extremely interesting. I like the wraith, all of them, they are so amazing ... and worth worshipping.

Hello Feel free to join us.

[Wraith Cake]

I agree with you about some strong atheists being fanatics who want to convert everyone to atheism. I regard them as trying to create an ideology of atheism, though, because a religion involves spirituality and/or worship of some supernatural being and atheism doesn't include either.

An ideology can include some aspects of religious type behaviour, of course, such as the cult of personality in Stalinist Russia.

http://www.historyguide.org/europe/cult.html

I don't know if regard for Charles Darwin could be classed as a cult. I can't see Richard Dawkins getting full cult status either because he isn't atheist enough for some of them. (He placed himself as about a 6 on his own scale of theistic probability, not 7 which is 'knowing' god doesn't exist.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectru...ic_probability



You're talking about strong atheism here. I agree that nobody's proved there's no kind of deity in any shape or form so 'knowing' non-existence does require an act of faith.



This is where weak atheists such as myself come in. I don't believe in deities because there's no absolute evidence that they exist. How does my lack of belief in them count as being religious, though? If somebody says they don't believe in unicorns, dragons and centaurs, do you regard their outlook as having a religious quality?



There's one big problem with Pascal's wager -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

[I]Since there have been many religions throughout history, and therefore many potential gods, some assert that all of them need to be factored into the wager. This would lead to a high probability of believing in the wrong god, which destroys the mathematical advantage Pascal claimed with his Wager. Denis Diderot, a contemporary of Voltaire, concisely expressed this opinion when asked about the wager, saying "an Imam could reason the same way".[13] J. L. Mackie notes that "the church within which alone salvation is to be found is not necessarily the Church of Rome, but perhaps that of the Anabaptists or the Mormons or the Muslim Sunnis or the worshipers of Kali or of Odin." [14]

So which deity/deities should I adopt for the purpose of Pascal's wager? If I was forced to choose I'd go for the Horned God and Triple Goddess of Wicca because I like them a lot better than the monotheistic deity of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.



If the global economy collapses everyone will be in the same boat no matter where they put their money.



So which one do I choose to pray to? Should I go through them all alphabetically just to make sure? What if the true deity was worshipped by some obscure tribe back in the dawn of human history so nobody knows about him/her now?

Anyway, back to Stargate. What kind of supreme deity would fit into the Stargate universe? It couldn't be one who created the entire universe and everything in it because Wraith evolved from Iratus bugs millions of years after creation would have taken place. (The Ancients were around for millions of years before they got to the Pegasus galaxy.)

Ya, religious discussions are interesting. The only thing I can say about Pascal's wager is that though the answers may be different for different people, I think in the spirit of what he intended the search is certainly necessary regardless of the answers one will accept.

I also find another interesting thing about human cultures and, I wonder if the wraith mirror it: there is always some deity at the centre of human societies. Even in societies where religion is banned, religious worship does not stop, it is merely driven underground.

And in terms of, I like the term you used "strong atheists", not having a god at their centre, I would question this. I question it in the sense that this tenet is often put forward in (strong atheism), yet I've never seen any kind of people without their share of idols.


It's interesting though eh? People have a propensity to worship.



WK

[Wraith Cake]

I'm a bit puzzled over what's been very well put here. In post 19635 you quote Solla as saying the following -



I didn't remember her saying anything about the bitterness of old age so I checked the original post. by clicking on the little view post arrow. (Next to Solla's name in the quoted bit.) This took me to post 19622 which says -



So where did the bitterness of old age come from? Did Solla add this in afterwards and change her mind after you'd quoted the amended version? If so, why doesn't her post say 'Last edited by Solla (with date and time) at the bottom? On the other hand, the bit in a different colour could have been your own addition.and I got confused because you didn't make it very clear that you were putting your own reply within the quoted bit. After all, saying "Very well put" implies that everything in the paragraph was very well put including any addition you might have made yourself.

Do I count as being bitter because I require concrete proof that humans are the most important species on the planet before going along with the idea? The way I see things, believing that we are without such concrete proof requires just as much an act of faith as asserting that God exists (or doesn't exist where the strong atheists are concerned).

I wasn't even thinking about you at all when I replied to her. I like Solla's writing style a lot--I think she is a gifted writer and eloquently expresses her point of view so clearly. It is refreshing to read nice writing, especially after a long day of correcting it.



WK

[Wraith Cake]

Thank you - both Sevenofnine and Todd!

I do need to add that intelligence gives us choice over primal instincts provided our basic needs are met - in other words even if Todd was madly in love with me (which, of course he is!)

ha ha ha ha ha

I still would not want to be around him if he was starving hungry! Perhaps if that lion, Christian had been starving the story might not have had such a feel good factor!

But then the same can be said for humans - in the extreme sense cannibalism for the sake of pure survival has been known (see, Greg is not a monster after all! ) and who is to say what any of us might be driven to - we are all capable of sacrificing our loved ones if pushed far enough to the extreme.

This is true. I think of the North American pioneers, who were forced into cannibalism but because the idea was so abhorrent to them, but the time they got around to eating each other, it was too late. Their bodies had already started to digest their major organs on the point of no return.

Also, I think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

However, all things being equal and all base needs met, I still have no problem with wraith not feeding on humans they may have become emtionally attached to either as worshippers or "pets"... a bit like someone happily munching on a cow but finding the thought of eating Fido unthinkable!
And yes, Das, before you wade in with "I wouldn't eat Fido but I wouldn't want to mate with him, either" - you might not think that way if Fido was humanoid, dressed in a very cool manner and looked totally HAWT!! (why, thank you Todd! )

Ha ha ha ha!


WK

[ciannwn]

It's true if we are talking about planetary ecosystem and living beings as physical organisms. The connection between humans, animals and their planet can be more complex and "multilevel". But it makes no sense if we proceed from the materialistic conception which states that life itself is really nothing more than the set of molecules.

If we proceed from the materialistic conception, which direction do we proceed in? Should we head off for the Christian God or the Hindu Brahman, for example?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../intro_1.shtml

Contrary to popular understanding, Hindus recognise one God, Brahman, the eternal origin who is the cause and foundation of all existence.

The gods of the Hindu faith represent different expressions of Brahman.

Why not convert to Asatru and follow the Nordic deities?

http://www.asatru.org/

Or what about Kemetic Wicca if the ancient Egyptian gods are more appealing?

http://www.squidoo.com/kemet

Then there's the Jainist philosophy. They don't believe in a Creator god.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...iefs/god.shtml

Jainists believe in the equality of souls.

http://www.jainuniversity.org/jainism.aspx

Jain religion presents a truly enlightened perspective of equality of souls, irrespective of differing physical forms, ranging from human beings to animals and microscopic living organisms. Humans, alone among living beings, are endowed with all the six senses of seeing, hearing, tasting smelling, touching, and thinking; thus humans are expected to act responsibly towards all life by being compassionate, egoless, fearless, forgiving, and rational.

Then there's reincarnation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa_...tion_of_Ahimsa

Furthermore, according to the Jain karmic theory, each and every soul, including self, has reincarnated as an animal, plant or microorganism innumerable number of times besides re-incarnated as humans.

Even though the human form is the only one which is evolved enough for potential liberation an amoeba in a pond is going to work its way up.

What will count as answers? The atheists determine whether or not the evidence may be considered and what sort of answers are permitted. The sad irony is that with such an approach it is very hard to find any acceptable answers.They can be cleverest people but nevertheless they are bounded by their own ideas about the world they live in. It’s a kind of frequency range your «system» is capable to pick up . IMO.

Where are these answers being picked up from, though? A Christian gets answers from the Christian God or Jesus. A Hindu will get answers from one of the gods who is an expression of Brahman. A Goddess worshipper will get answers from the Goddess. Other people get answers from using Runes or Tarot cards.

[Solla]

Very true. I like Stephen Hawking's attitude toward space exploration: Perhaps we shouldn't make our presence known.

WK

I tend to think they have already known about us, but we are of little interest to most of them. Maybe for those who love games - "Create your own civilization" or "Survivor" or write a thesis about clinical signs of self-absorbing and self-destruction.

[Wraith Cake]

In continuing on the topic of "billion dollar questions":

And what do these words - "spiritual", "spirit" - mean? Something unreal and imperceptible? Are our thoughts, inspirations, dreams and fantasies real? Yes, they are real, they exist for our finest perception although we can touch them like a cat, purring near our legs or key-board, lying on our table or another material subject... And where is a border between spirit and matter? For example, some Buddhist doctrines say that spirit and matter are one and matter is just the differentiation of spirit. Indeed we cannot separate ourselves from matter, neither in action nor in thinking. We deal either with the subtle or with the denser aspects of that same matter.

It's true. How do we determine what fact is--something we experience through the five senses. So, where do ideas such as Justice, and Mercy and Compassion come in; I cannot point and say "Hey...there's justice", and "Oh look! Mercy just flew past my window!", yet these are just as real as gravity. And like gravity which we cannot see, is observed by it's impact on the "tangible" around us. I can't point to mercy, but I can see it's impact in the world around me. We would be foolish to exclude the possibility that there is more to the universe than merely the observable. But like you, when someone says "spiritual", I often think (rightly or wrongly...what does that mean?)

People can’t see X-rays, elementary particles, distant stars... those who lived in Europe 600 years ago had no idea about America. Does it mean that all above-mentioned things does not exist? Rationalistic people often say that they prefer logic, rational thought, and science, but namely the above-mentioned criteria can make us think that there are many things that are unknown or even inaccessible for human mind and senses, at any rate now, on this stage of our evolution. We are too weak, too limited in our abilities of perception in order to say «there is nothing on the other side» or expect that «someone» or «something» should produce evidence that will satisfy us... But of course, every one has his/her own conceptions to follow... World is a kind of supermarket (I'd like to order some Saturn Cheese ) where everyone can find whatever he/she likes, change the brand or even invent your own .

Well put!




WK

[_Mari_]

Is intelligence the measurement for importance, though? Here are some questions -

1: What would happen if the human race became extinct tomorrow? Would all life on Earth die out as well or would other species carry on perfectly well without us?

2: What would happen if all the bacteria on Earth became extinct tomorrow? Would we humans carry on perfectly well without the bacteria in our guts which help us to digest food, for example?

No the Earth would carry on without us. Earth and Nature would gradually tear down human structures. Plants animals and the weather would destroy human habitation roads ect. A new natural order would arise and new dominate species would come to dominate the Earth.


MCH

Humans can come up with all kinds of reasons as to why we're supposed to be more important than anything else on the planet. There is a lot of evidence now, though, to show that we aren't more important than all the other living things which make up the ecosystem. If they go so the ecosystem collapses as a result we'll be following them.

Humans cannot survive without Earth, but Earth can survive without humans. And good ridence too, I say. Humans is a very imaginative and resourcefull race, but what do we do with all of it? We destroy everything around us and leave nothing but ashes behind...

[Wraith Cake]

I tend to think they have already known about us, but we are of little interest to most of them. Maybe for those who love games - "Create your own civilization" or "Survivor" or write a thesis about clinical signs of self-absorbing and self-destruction.

Mmm, interesting. I've heard this too, this makes sense. If we are "known" we are beneath notice. (shivers down my spine)



WK

[ciannwn]

The only thing I can say about Pascal's wager is that though the answers may be different for different people, I think in the spirit of what he intended the search is certainly necessary regardless of the answers one will accept.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia article about Blaise Pascal -

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11511a.htm

# If I wager for and God is -- infinite gain;
# If I wager for and God is not -- no loss.
# If I wager against and God is -- infinite loss;
# If I wager against and God is not -- neither loss nor gain

This is all very well but he's talking about the Roman Catholic concept of God. What if I wager for this God but it turns out that the Jainist philosophy is right? Going for the Roman Catholic God would then result in the loss of a further step towards liberation.

I also find another interesting thing about human cultures and, I wonder if the wraith mirror it: there is always some deity at the centre of human societies.

It's an interesting thought that their human heritage might have resulted in them having had some kind of belief in a deity in the past even if they don't have one now.

Even in societies where religion is banned, religious worship does not stop, it is merely driven underground.

Or a religious impulse is transferred to a cult of personality such as that of Stalin. There was even a hymn to him.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/stalin-worship.html

And in terms of, I like the term you used "strong atheists", not having a god at their centre, I would question this. I question it in the sense that this tenet is often put forward in (strong atheism), yet I've never seen any kind of people without their share of idols.

My personal opinion is that some strong atheists have turned atheism itself into a kind of idol.

It's interesting though eh? People have a propensity to worship.

It is interesting. Why do humans as a species have this propensity? How did we evolve it? Why do chimpanzees go in for waterfall displays?

http://www.janegoodall.org/chimp_cen...rain_dance.asp

One of the most interesting and scrutinized events I have recorded on video was a waterfall display performed by the alpha at the time, Freud. Freud began his display with typical rhythmic and deliberate swaying and swinging on vines. For minutes he swung over and across the eight to 12-foot falls. At one point, Freud stood at the top of the falls dipping has hand into the stream and rolling rocks one at a time down the face of the waterfall. Finally, he displayed (slowly, on vines) down the falls and settled on a rock about 30 feet downstream. He relaxed, then turned to the falls and stared at it for many minutes. It was one of those times that I would give body parts to know what was going through a chimp's mind

[ciannwn]

I wasn't even thinking about you at all when I replied to her. I like Solla's writing style a lot--I think she is a gifted writer and eloquently expresses her point of view so clearly. It is refreshing to read nice writing, especially after a long day of correcting it.WK

I was just puzzled over where the line about bitterness of old age came from because it wasn't in her original post. I'm now guessing you added it yourself in a different colour as a kind of reply within the post.

As I qualify for 'old age' I was curious about your opinion on whether requiring proof counts as bitterness.

[Solla]

If we proceed from the materialistic conception, which direction do we proceed in? Should we head off for the Christian God or the Hindu Brahman, for example?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../intro_1.shtml

Contrary to popular understanding, Hindus recognise one God, Brahman, the eternal origin who is the cause and foundation of all existence.

The gods of the Hindu faith represent different expressions of Brahman.

Why not convert to Asatru and follow the Nordic detieis?

http://www.asatru.org/

Or what about the Kemetic Wicca if the ancient Egyptian gods are more appealing?

http://www.squidoo.com/kemet

Then there's the Jainist philosophy. They don't believe in a Creator god.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...iefs/god.shtml

Jainists believe in the equality of souls.

http://www.jainuniversity.org/jainism.aspx

Jain religion presents a truly enlightened perspective of equality of souls, irrespective of differing physical forms, ranging from human beings to animals and microscopic living organisms. Humans, alone among living beings, are endowed with all the six senses of seeing, hearing, tasting smelling, touching, and thinking; thus humans are expected to act responsibly towards all life by being compassionate, egoless, fearless, forgiving, and rational.

Then there's reincarnation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa_...tion_of_Ahimsa

Furthermore, according to the Jain karmic theory, each and every soul, including self, has reincarnated as an animal, plant or microorganism innumerable number of times besides re-incarnated as humans.

Even though the human form is the only one which is evolved enough for potential liberation an amoeba in a pond is going to work its way up.



Where are these answers being picked up from, though? A Christian gets answers from the Christian God or Jesus. A Hindu will get answers from one of the gods who is an expression of Brahman. A Goddess worshipper will get answers from the Goddess. Other people get answers from using Runes or Tarot cards.

Again, what will count as answers? It's up to you to decide which conceptions you find acceptable for your heart and mind. I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think my personal beliefs are interesting to other people who play here. Perhaps they are already thinking how great it would be to feed me to a wraith with all these talks .

Besides, if I knew all the answers I wouldn’t be stuck on Earth.

[Gatecat]

Hello Feel free to join us.

Thanks for the welcome.