Wraith Defenders Club

[Wraith Cake]

Thats a very good point - glad you picked that up. they have pursued a warrior society and know nothing else.
They would have to re-invent themselves. Which would probably be hard, but I also think Todd is looking to the future - he can see his race is stagnant and must change, but they don't want change, as they say wraith are never ending.

It's interesting, it seems that Todd has undergone a profound reawakening/enlightenment in his relationship with Shepard. Shepard is not as willing to admit the connection--or perhaps feels too "macho" to feel vulnerable feelings. But whatever, Todd seems to be searching for a merge between his people and the values/loyalty ect. of the Lantian humans. It is interesting, in the SGA story, Todd has changed the most as a person--his character has developed, whereas Shepard's has not. His character was starting to get revealed at the end of season five, but not really change. Todd had a fundamental shift in the way he viewed the world. This sort of thing does happen to people, but it is uncommon, and the person has to be receptive to that change (in other words embrace the change because they have the courage to do so). The foundation of how Todd views the world was changed, but it didn't rock him. It hasn't made him weaker, it has made him stronger. He wants to work for a better future. This is why he was willing to embrace the "Keller treatment", because he ultimately is not afraid of change. Michael on the other hand could not handle the change. It broke him; it did not make him stronger, it made him weaker. His profound experience albeit was not as positive a one as Todd's, nonetheless he seems to have arrived at the same conclusion regarding humanity--"I use to see you as only a means to survive--I have a 'unique' perspective."


WK

[Wraith Cake]

Very interesting discussion again on wraithie artwork.

As I see it, they are bound to have developed art and music because that happened to us humans again. That urge is rooted in the "horror vacuui", the fear of empty spaces. It is known in art history to cause the psychologic urge to create something that lasts longer than the one who created it. You could call it a "way to immortality".

Although the Wraith are nearly immortal in themselves they share a basic fear of death with us humans like every living being, so it would be very reasonable to think they create artworks to fill the "emtpy space".

There are many warlike cultures on earth who are known to create beautiful artwork and the Wraith's sense of style and taste imply they have a liking for beautiful things.
Body art like tattos and braids make that clear as well. So IMO the Wraith are a very artistic species indeed.

I love this particular theory--Aristotelian at that too. Though I wouldn't say the wraith are as driven by this, they seem closer to the Spartans where art and culture are peripheral elements to their military culture as training to fight is all encompassing. Even in their architecture (at least in Rising Part II) and clothing, they prefer sleek straight lines (strong decisive lines) and large empty corridors. Later, they still embrace a type of spartan living, but it becomes organic and more womb like--perhaps the architecture reflects the wraith's desire to return to the safety of the womb with so much uncertainty the Lantian humans have brought. The wraith seem quite comfortable with large empty spaces--the Lantians however do not. Ah hah, I've just had a thought--they need to NAME EVERYTHING perhaps the need for everything to be accounted for, the Lantians do this I mean.


WK

[MCH]

It's interesting, it seems that Todd has undergone a profound reawakening/enlightenment in his relationship with Shepard. Shepard is not as willing to admit the connection--or perhaps feels too "macho" to feel vulnerable feelings. But whatever, Todd seems to be searching for a merge between his people and the values/loyalty etc. of the Lantian humans. It is interesting, in the SGA story, Todd has changed the most as a person--his character has developed, whereas Shepard's has not. His character was starting to get revealed at the end of season five, but not really change.

Part of Todd change was a slow one due to his experiences at the hands of the Genii. He knew what it was to have no hope, to see no end in sight to what was happening to him. To be starving never to know when he was to feed again.
Then someone comes along a human, Shepherd, who refused to lie down and take the Genie treatment. Who had faith that his team would be looking for him. A powerful shot in the arm for Todd who had reached rock bottom, the only way he could go was to help Shepherd. Both are warriors who would fight even if the outcome was death to them both.

Shepherd I still think that something somewhere scared him so badly - the death of his mother, if a child lose a parent at a young age believe me it rocks your world fundamentally. The damage to a person character growth can be stunted.
Shepherd redeeming character trait was his loyalty to his team and Atlantis, he would fight to the death for them. They are his family now -Look at him during the Storm.

Todd is the enemy but he replayed his debt to Shepherd by giving him the gift of life. The one who seemed to have a problem was Shepherd who was on the receiving end of a painful experience life being taken then given back.

Todd had a fundamental shift in the way he viewed the world. This sort of thing does happen to people, but it is uncommon, and the person has to be receptive to that change (in other words embrace the change because they have the courage to do so). The foundation of how Todd views the world was changed, but it didn't rock him. It hasn't made him weaker, it has made him stronger. He wants to work for a better future. This is why he was willing to embrace the "Keller treatment", because he ultimately is not afraid of change.

Todd fundamental shift what did he learn from John Shepherd mind about humans did he see that there was another way the way of change. That he could build on and see his way to make the Wraith world change.
Shepherd is not a telepathy wonder what he would have learnt if it was a two way process. So he did not get an more intimate access to Todd's mind and his thought.

Michael on the other hand could not handle the change. It broke him; it did not make him stronger, it made him weaker. His profound experience albeit was not as positive a one as Todd's, nonetheless he seems to have arrived at the same conclusion regarding humanity--"I use to see you as only a means to survive--I have a 'unique' perspective."
WK

The difference for Michael is that he was given the retrovirus against his will. Todd took the retrovirus, he maybe not fully understanded the full physical effects but he decided to go ahead and give it to his whole hive. Michael did not give his consent, but he did end up with a 'unique' perspective' on humans and realise that there is more to humans than food.


MCH

[Solla]

I personally don’t think they have developed artistic culture. When we think of beauty and especially when we create beauty we raise ourselves ahead of our conditions and everyday life. Apart from natural gifts it takes a great courage to be different from others, readiness to change your attitude towards our former concepts and, above all, freedom of thought. So far I don’t see how these things get along with their mentality.
The arts are the mirror of the society and its general level with all its conflicts, problems, aspirations and hopes. The higher were the concepts the greater were the arts. Besides, the great art make us better, it gives us happiness and refines our mind, it stimulates us to think about the true values of life beyond the material benefits and limited everyday stuff. Sorry, my answer is «no».

But nevertheless I tend to think they should have legends, tales, proverbs, etc., like every nation.

[Draco-Stellaris]

I personally don’t think they have developed artistic culture. When we think of beauty and especially when we create beauty we raise ourselves ahead of our conditions and everyday life. Apart from natural gifts it takes a great courage to be different from others, readiness to change your attitude towards our former concepts and, above all, freedom of thought. So far I don’t see how these things get along with their mentality.
The arts are the mirror of the society and its general level with all its conflicts, problems, aspirations and hopes. The higher were the concepts the greater were the arts. Besides, the great art make us better, it gives us happiness and refines our mind, it stimulates us to think about the true values of life beyond the material benefits and limited everyday stuff. Sorry, my answer is «no».

But nevertheless I tend to think they should have legends, tales, proverbs, etc., like every nation.

It depends on how you define "art".
Is it already art if primitive jungle tribes paint their bodies with war symbols? That answer is definitely "yes".

Everything we (or Wraith) do to modify something (i.e. objects of utility) to look appealing is an artistic process and expression of individualism and we have clearly seen the Wraith do have individualistic tendencies, in simple things like clothing for example. Their coats look only similar at a casual glance. There are differences in the design.

Art is not only sculpting Michelangelo's David or painting the Mona Lisa. Art begins with trivialities.

[Solla]

It's interesting, it seems that Todd has undergone a profound reawakening/enlightenment in his relationship with Shepard. Shepard is not as willing to admit the connection--or perhaps feels too "macho" to feel vulnerable feelings. But whatever, Todd seems to be searching for a merge between his people and the values/loyalty ect. of the Lantian humans. It is interesting, in the SGA story, Todd has changed the most as a person--his character has developed, whereas Shepard's has not. His character was starting to get revealed at the end of season five, but not really change. Todd had a fundamental shift in the way he viewed the world. This sort of thing does happen to people, but it is uncommon, and the person has to be receptive to that change (in other words embrace the change because they have the courage to do so). The foundation of how Todd views the world was changed, but it didn't rock him. It hasn't made him weaker, it has made him stronger. He wants to work for a better future. This is why he was willing to embrace the "Keller treatment", because he ultimately is not afraid of change. Michael on the other hand could not handle the change. It broke him; it did not make him stronger, it made him weaker. His profound experience albeit was not as positive a one as Todd's, nonetheless he seems to have arrived at the same conclusion regarding humanity--"I use to see you as only a means to survive--I have a 'unique' perspective."


WK

Yeah, he is very open-minded and totally fearless. He could be a great reformer. Besides, his eyes and heart are open to beauty. No wonder he writes poetry in AU

[Solla]

It depends on how you define "art".
Is it already art if primitive jungle tribes paint their bodies with war symbols? That answer is definitely "yes".

Everything we (or Wraith) do to modify something (i.e. objects of utility) to look appealing is an artistic process and expression of individualism and we have clearly seen the Wraith do have individualistic tendencies, in simple things like clothing for example. Their coats look only similar at a casual glance. There are differences in the design.

Art is not only sculpting Michelangelo's David or painting the Mona Lisa. Art begins with trivialities.

I meant developed artistic culture and I didn't assert they are talentless . The point is that they have already outgrown their primitive state, so it is natural to expect a more advanced state of art evolution, too.

[Karhedron]

Just stepping in for the Heyerdahl-thunkers. If you didn't watch the last episode of Supernatural don't miss the one that airs today.
Christopher Heyerdahl as big-bad-boss demon!

He always seems to play the guys that get caught though. So...for some Chris in chains...tune in tonight

[_Mari_]

It depends on how you define "art".
Is it already art if primitive jungle tribes paint their bodies with war symbols? That answer is definitely "yes".

Everything we (or Wraith) do to modify something (i.e. objects of utility) to look appealing is an artistic process and expression of individualism and we have clearly seen the Wraith do have individualistic tendencies, in simple things like clothing for example. Their coats look only similar at a casual glance. There are differences in the design.

Art is not only sculpting Michelangelo's David or painting the Mona Lisa. Art begins with trivialities.

Sure, I see you're point, but there's art, and there's ART.
The wraith's use of "art" right now, their use of tattoos, earrings, finger-covers, rings and outfits are of a more personal adornment. They are used to please the individual and only him/her, not others. ART, as sculptures, paintings, music, arcitecture and so on, made to "entertain" just for the joy of it, they don't care for at the moment in my humble opinion. As a warrior sociaty, ART don't serve a real purpose for the wraith. They are of a more... practical nature.
I do think they have legends, myths and such. Maybe even some sort of songs, but not the kinds with words or instruments, just sound, like we heard in Missbegotten I think it was, when they were summoning the hive. A throaty sound, like the one the (tibetanes monks? islandic? Tundra nomads? Not sure which) use.

[_Mari_]

BTW, how long does it take for a probie before my messages are NOT being moderated anymore when I post something? It's kinda annoying to get kicked out of the room after every time I've written something...

(mod insert....the exact number is a secret and changes randomly, but be patient, you'll graduate in no time)

[Wraith Cake]

I personally don’t think they have developed artistic culture. When we think of beauty and especially when we create beauty we raise ourselves ahead of our conditions and everyday life. Apart from natural gifts it takes a great courage to be different from others, readiness to change your attitude towards our former concepts and, above all, freedom of thought. So far I don’t see how these things get along with their mentality.
The arts are the mirror of the society and its general level with all its conflicts, problems, aspirations and hopes. The higher were the concepts the greater were the arts. Besides, the great art make us better, it gives us happiness and refines our mind, it stimulates us to think about the true values of life beyond the material benefits and limited everyday stuff. Sorry, my answer is «no».

But nevertheless I tend to think they should have legends, tales, proverbs, etc., like every nation.

I agree. Sadly, but they are too rigid to be inspired.


WK

[ciannwn]

Sure, I see you're point, but there's art, and there's ART.

Humans value art because we have it. Should we judge alien races by our own values, though? After all, is art really so important in the grand scheme of things that every single intelligent alien species would develop it?

[MCH]

BTW, how long does it take for a probie before my messages are NOT being moderated anymore when I post something? It's kinda annoying to get kicked out of the room after every time I've written something...

(mod insert....the exact number is a secret and changes randomly, but be patient, you'll graduate in no time)

You get there don't worry, we all go through it. GW like to make sure we come up to the rules they have which is sensible.

Take care. MCH

[Wraith Cake]

It depends on how you define "art".
Is it already art if primitive jungle tribes paint their bodies with war symbols? That answer is definitely "yes".

Everything we (or Wraith) do to modify something (i.e. objects of utility) to look appealing is an artistic process and expression of individualism and we have clearly seen the Wraith do have individualistic tendencies, in simple things like clothing for example. Their coats look only similar at a casual glance. There are differences in the design.

Art is not only sculpting Michelangelo's David or painting the Mona Lisa. Art begins with trivialities.

Absolutely, all sentient creatures have a tendency toward the aesthetic. However, I have to admit I have always loathed this relatively misplaced question of "What is Art"? The are a lot or reasons why I think it is an appropriate question, but just as many for why I think it has been misused.

Of course it's appropriate to question "What is Art?" when art history books had an extremely Euro centric bias. Up until I would say as late as the late sixties or early seventies, artistic merit was purely defined from a western centric perspective. This necessary line of questioning however, took on broad nihilistic Worhal like tendencies. And don't get me wrong I like Worhal, however the idea of "what is art" became completely capitalistic. It was far less about deconstructing cultural bias and much more about how he could hoodwink the public into paying for crap.

Sure intellectually we can think okay what is art bla bla bla, and look at a piece of s--t on a stick poised in a mannequin's hand as interesting and thought provoking--I would certainly consider it thought provoking, or building a small pyramid with pubic hair (as I have seen frequently), or skinning a cat alive (as one local OCAD student did "for the sake of art"--I still pray to this day he was sentenced to six months in prison, heavily fined and prevented from ever engaging with an animal again), however I would not call it artistic--perhaps logoistic (or semiotic), but not artistic.

And typically from my experience, (and this is just my experience) and I know this may sound a little callous but I do not mean it to be so--but typically people who constantly throw out this question "What is Art?", have little technical artistic skill themselves. In other words, this question becomes a justification for those who either do not have the talent or work ethic to develop themselves artistically.

So, at the end of the day I would argue (based on what we have seen) the wraith are an aesthetic culture, but not an artistic one. Because their priority has focused on what is concrete rather than what is abstract (which is the backbone of artistic inspiration), developing creative skills would most likely be considered trivial and a waste of time.


WK

[_Mari_]

So, at the end of the day I would argue (based on what we have seen) the wraith are an aesthetic culture, but not an artistic one. Because their priority has focused on what is concrete rather than what is abstract (which is the backbone of artistic inspiration), developing creative skills would most likely be considered trivial and a waste of time.


WK

Here, here! My point exactly!