Wraith Defenders Club

[Wraith Cake]

Das, just a quick question about this: Do you believe it's the genetics that make (some) people humane?

Genetics do not and cannot account for morality--such a complex behaviour and thought process. Also, this type of logic: humaneness being hard wired into us is the same as saying there are those who are genetically or inherently good, versus those who are inherently evil. This and other such topics relate to eugenics--a discipline of "social" science, not hard science.

Anyway, what about the happy happy conversation about wraith making wine?

WK

[Wraith Cake]

You want an honest answer? I believe our humanity is a God-given gift. I also believe in creation, and not all-out evolution. Now - how can I sit here and openly discuss the evolution of the Wraith from their buggy ancestors and all of that? Because - to me - it's science fiction. Fiction. I can believe and accept anything in the realm of fiction - it's just the fancies of one's mind.

That's why I do not bring in my real-life viewpoints into this discussion - because my real-life beliefs would be in direct conflict with my ability to enjoy this show. The only real-life belief I bring into this is that everything has a right to life, and that hypocrisy on the part of man is reprehensible. I keep God and creation out of it, however, since those are not elements of the show.

See - I can separate reality (or, my reality) from fantasy. I can accept what the show offers me as enjoyable (sometimes aggravating) science fiction, while still holding to my real-life personal beliefs.

So - to answer your question - in real-life I believe our humanity is given to us by God - that all people have the inborn capacity to do good, but often choose to do bad. I also believe that each species is a unique creation, with laws (instinct) unto themselves.

If I try to bring this into the Wraith discussion the big problem is this: Due to EVOLUTION, Wraith have an inherent need to feed on humans. Now - how do I reconcile that with my belief in creation and God? I don't - I separate it and leave it to another realm of discussion.

das

(just to chide you a bit Das ) I know!... you can think about it....Oh and um...think. Just to play the Devil's advocate (pun intended): Doesn't Jesus command under the new covenant "love the Lord God with all your heart, MIND, soul and strength." Mark 12.30 Unlike under the old covenant "Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and strength." Deuteronomy 6:5? Perhaps He requires us to reconcile doubts, not suppress them.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm gonna put a clamp down on that Pandora's box.




WK

[Wraith Cake]

Wraith DEFINITELY crochet! Have you noticed the similarity between freeform crochet and hive ships?!?!

Ha ha ha ha there's that word again!! Crochet!! I love this word--don't get me started!



WK

[Laura Dove]

Someone on DeviantArt made two drawings for those who died unfairly in recent episodes and never got a chance to be mourned in the show... Seems we are not alone to mourn the dead who didn't deserve their fate.

Spoiler:

Memorial for Michael

I naver really like the Michael chacter but as i've whatch the series especaly the most recent episode it is hard not to feel sad on my part, prahaps it is my love for the wraith but I can't help but get the feeling that it is Sheppard and his tema that are the real evil in the show.

Memorial for Todd's crew

This piece of art is dedicated to all the wraith that passed away in Infection, the coat is supose to be wraith blowing in the wind with flower pettles, the shoe prints are Todd's, standing befor the memorial he erected for his crew in silence befor walking away.

[dasNdanger]

For a creationist you make a damn fine arguement for evolution! And, as an evolutionist I find myself agreeing with you!
But, like I said before, us humans are egocentric and find it hard not to attribute human characteristics to non-human creatures (we do it all the time with pets etc).
However I agree that just because we see something as "wrong" does not mean any non-human species should also do so - hence me putting the bold in your quote. Todd would not see feeding on humans as "wrong" - but given his current circumstances he might be thinking it could be untenable, unsustainable or just plain inconvenient.
The feral cat can still go out and catch free range mice, but it's a darn sight easier to let someone else feed you Friskies!

Having said all that, I agree with you also in that I love Wraith (and Todd in particular) any which way - tame, feral or anywhere inbetween

The main difference is that humans - good or bad - have a choice (outside of those with serious mental illness). I do not believe that anyone is wholly good, or wholly bad - but that a good person can change and become bad if they so desire, and a bad person - even the worst of them - can choose to do the right thing. Bottom line is that we are not controlled by instinct, but by reason.

However, even though Wraith can make a choice, their instinct will naturally override it because - at this point - their instinct (animal nature) is stronger than their reasoning ability (human nature) . Going back to the cat comparison...my cat understands 'no!'. Perhaps my cat can even 'reason' to a certain extent that when I say 'no!', I mean it. But still my cat will give me this defiant look and do whatever it is I don't want it to do anyway...because its instinct is stronger than its reason.

DAAAASSSS---the question is do they knit?

Of course they knit - doncha remember this??:

Spoiler:

(just to chide you a bit Das ) I know!... you can think about it....Oh and um...think. Just to play the Devil's advocate (pun intended): Doesn't Jesus command under the new covenant "love the Lord God with all your heart, MIND, soul and strength." Mark 12.30 Unlike under the old covenant "Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and strength." Deuteronomy 6:5? Perhaps He requires us to reconcile doubts, not suppress them.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm gonna put a clamp down on that Pandora's box.




WK

Yeah, well...technically, that love with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength REALLY means that I should be spending more time talking about God, then about Wraith.

I just hope He understands OCD....




das

[Todd's Pet]

Someone on DeviantArt made two drawings for those who died unfairly in recent episodes and never got a chance to be mourned in the show... Seems we are not alone to mourn the dead who didn't deserve their fate.

Spoiler:

Memorial for Michael


Memorial for Todd's crew

What about Steve???
Steve was just the coooooooolest

BRING BACK STEVE!

[Todd's Pet]

The main difference is that humans - good or bad - have a choice (outside of those with serious mental illness). I do not believe that anyone is wholly good, or wholly bad - but that a good person can change and become bad if they so desire, and a bad person - even the worst of them - can choose to do the right thing. Bottom line is that we are not controlled by instinct, but by reason.

Huge "couldn't agree more"

However, even though Wraith can make a choice, their instinct will naturally override it because - at this point - their instinct (animal nature) is stronger than their reasoning ability (human nature) . Going back to the cat comparison...my cat understands 'no!'. Perhaps my cat can even 'reason' to a certain extent that when I say 'no!', I mean it. But still my cat will give me this defiant look and do whatever it is I don't want it to do anyway...because its instinct is stronger than its reason.

What makes you say that? From what I've seen so far (and I admit I haven't seen every single ep) Wraith have quite developed powers of reasoning.


Of course they knit - doncha remember this??:

Spoiler:

das

Oh yeah, lovin' that!

[Todd's Pet]

Ha ha ha ha there's that word again!! Crochet!! I love this word--don't get me started!



WK

Why not? Go on, be a devil and start! Engines revvin'...

[Todd's Pet]

.
Yeah, well...technically, that love with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength REALLY means that I should be spending more time talking about God, then about Wraith.

I just hope He understands OCD....




das

Of course he does!
Personally I lean more towards Buddha, but it doesn;t matter which version of god you subcribe to, they all have a thread that goes along the lines that everything that comes into your life is there for a good reason - and that's gotta include fictional aliens from the Pegasus galaxy!

And let's face it, although we're all rolling around in the gutter over at the Todd thunk thread, in this one we're dicussing life the universe and everything and I reckon God should be pretty OK with that!

[dasNdanger]

What makes you say that? From what I've seen so far (and I admit I haven't seen every single ep) Wraith have quite developed powers of reasoning.

Because of the episode with Ellia - Instinct. She loved her human father, she didn't want to feed on humans - she had a strong power of reason AND love, and yet...her instinct overrode her reason and she was unable to resist the need to feed.

Michael, too - when he turned back to Wraith and threatened to feed on Teyla - later told her that he had no choice - he would have fed on her because it was his instinct to do so.

Both are examples of Wraith who can reason that there could be another way, but their instinct overrode their reason and drove them to feed anyway.


das

[ciannwn]

.my cat understands 'no!'. Perhaps my cat can even 'reason' to a certain extent that when I say 'no!', I mean it. But still my cat will give me this defiant look and do whatever it is I don't want it to do anyway...

That sounds just like my son when he was a toddler.

Wraith DEFINITELY crochet! Have you noticed the similarity between freeform crochet and hive ships?!?!

So that's why Michael came up with a method of growing hive ships. He didn't have a Queen to crochet one for him.

[dasNdanger]

That sounds just like my son when he was a toddler.

Well, if Wraith can technically live forever, then a 10,000 year old Wraith would still be a toddler, in human years. Hey - that might explain the temper tantrums.


das

[Todd's Pet]

Because of the episode with Ellia - Instinct. She loved her human father, she didn't want to feed on humans - she had a strong power of reason AND love, and yet...her instinct overrode her reason and she was unable to resist the need to feed.

Michael, too - when he turned back to Wraith and threatened to feed on Teyla - later told her that he had no choice - he would have fed on her because it was his instinct to do so.

Both are examples of Wraith who can reason that there could be another way, but their instinct overrode their reason and drove them to feed anyway.


das

Fair point.
I haven't seen the ep with Michael, though I did see the one with Eila - did they not give her something that turned her into some kind of feral superWraith, though?

Actually your points have got me thinking
Yeah obviously the Wraith are fictional - but it is a fun mental exercise to use the fiction as a spring board to discuss theories, abstract concepts and human value systems...

However, what if the Wraith were real? How many of us Wraith Defenders would stand around admiring them? or would you run as fast as you could in the opposite direction?
Would we all become Wraith Worshippers for real? Or would the instinct for survival take over and make you stay away from them (even hate them)?

WHY did the writers come up with the concept of Wraith Worshippers in the first place? Is it cos that look is universally hot? No - I know people who think they just look like monsters and can't understand my attraction!

Are the Worshippers worshippers because they love the Wraith or because they think it will keep them alive? And if the Wraith can turn on them any minute (like a beautiful but unpredictable dog) why do they stay with the Wraith?

Or is it all down to humanising again?

I wonder if I might try to reason with Todd, possibly stay around him long enough to try to understand his motives and reason out how long I might be safe. But Steve... he might be astonishingly gorgeous, but I wouldn't want to be locked in the same room with him!

Sorry if I'm rambling, it's been a long hard week!
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the push-pull attraction of Wraith cos I'm blowed if I can understand it myself!

[Todd's Pet]

That sounds just like my son when he was a toddler.



So that's why Michael came up with a method of growing hive ships. He didn't have a Queen to crochet one for him.

[dasNdanger]

Fair point.
I haven't seen the ep with Michael, though I did see the one with Eila - did they not give her something that turned her into some kind of feral superWraith, though?

Actually your points have got me thinking
Yeah obviously the Wraith are fictional - but it is a fun mental exercise to use the fiction as a spring board to discuss theories, abstract concepts and human value systems...

However, what if the Wraith were real? How many of us Wraith Defenders would stand around admiring them? or would you run as fast as you could in the opposite direction?

I would have the same respectful fear of them that I have for sharks, or tigers. I wouldn't put myself at unnecessary risk, but I wouldn't seek their extermination, either.

Would we all become Wraith Worshippers for real? Or would the instinct for survival take over and make you stay away from them (even hate them)?

Well, since I have a natural inclination to worship - and if I existed in the Stargate Dimension (where God doesn't exist), then I would naturally become a worshipper - both for self-preservation, and because of all the other arguments I've presented here, including their good management of their human herds, which helps to keep the ecosystems of the planets in balance.

Also, because they're 'universally hot'.

I think I could easily come to love a Wraith like Todd, maybe Shawn (he liked fine wine, afterall!), and definitely Rhys.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the push-pull attraction of Wraith cos I'm blowed if I can understand it myself!

Join the club - I don't think we can explain this attraction ourselves...though I have done a good job trying. I think it has to do with nurturing...the Wraith are hungry, and we - especially those of us who are women - naturally want to feed them. It's OUR nature to do so - nurse our babies, spoon-feed our children, cook for our families. So, when we think of these lovely creatures being so hungry that it pains them...I just think it stimulates our natural instinct to provide them with sustanence.

Spoiler:

Now - who wants to nurse Todd??

das