Rachel Luttrell/Teyla Emmagan WOW Thread

[Hope24]

Now don't quote me on this but I think I read somewhere that he said his fave character was Rodney. But if it was he sure didn't let it show *cough* Unlike certain others *cough*

If well if this true, I give him all the credit. I can't crush on him since that is already taken.

If it's true that his favorite was Rodney then I have even more respect for your writing god because he didn't let that love for Rodney overtake his storytelling - unlike his co-workers.

Indeed!

The more I read about Jo Graham's work ethic, the more she impresses me. I saw one her her January LJ entries where she discusses the importance of worldbuilding by creating detailed backstories for characters she writes - even if much of those backstories are not likely to be included in her final product. I'm going to find that entry and post a link to it later because it just got me even more excited about the upcoming novels.

I am very much impressed with Jo too. I know it is her and three other writers. And so far what I have read from Jo I love how these writers went about doing these books. So I am very much looking forward to these novels too. I can’t remember that post off hand, but I think it would be great if you post it.

Yes, Season 5 was just full of wasted potential because it contained so many episodes that added nothing of value to SGA. Because of this, I still haven't been able to watch Season 5 in full. If I did, then I would probably have the same reaction you did because there was so little of what I loved about SGA included in Season 5. Like you mentioned, there was very little Teyla, Ronon and Team moments and too much McKeller.

As for when they knew Season 5 would be the last, I think JM didn't get confirmation until just before they were shooting Gero's masterpiece, Brainstorm. However, he confirmed in his blog that he suspected that Season 5 would be the last long before it was actually confirmed, so there's no excuse for how Season 5 turned out. IMO, even if SGA had been confirmed for several more seasons, there wouldn't have been any excuse for how Season 5 turned out because it was just a badly written, poorly executed season.

In fact, I think that his believing that Season 5 could be the last was why that season was filled with what I consider the writers' special projects in prep for their next gigs. For instance, I know that JM was working on a non-SGA horror project, so I'm not surprised that we got Whispers - a horror episode. BW seemed to want to practice for SGU by writing The Shrine - his version of character-heavy drama. RC used Vegas to play with non-SG type storytelling and camera angles. I'm not sure what was going on with Carl Binder, but it wasn't good for SGA. And, of course Gero was allowed to indulge his geek gets the girl of his dreams fantasies. In short, Season 5 was great for the writers, but bad for fans like me who wanted see a well-thought out season that flowed well and did the SGA characters justice.

I think the only time I saw Brainstorm was when it first aired on television and I didn’t see the whole episode either. And that is still one episode I don’t care to see again any time soon if ever at this point. And the fact I feel this way about this episode and others is sad.

I am not sure what order the episodes were shot, but I am almost certain it wasn’t in the order it was aired. So I totally agree with you there is really no excuse for how season five turned out to be. And then the fact JM confirmed he had suspected that Season 5 would be the show last. I long have felt like this…yeah they turned in a product, but I certainly don’t think that their hearts or attention were focus on that product. Now, what you are saying just confirmed that to me all the more.

But I don’t think I will truly understand these guys. Conventional wisdom, if this maybe the last season, try tying up some unresolved stories arcs. I think we got that for Michael’s story arc. I don’t know what kind of resolution that was for Elizabeth. I know the loss of Tori did put a limitation on what they could do. But still…

Where is the character development? I know I am no closer to believing that Teyla is happily settled down with Kanaan. If someone can tell me of a scene after Broken Ties that shows Teyla in domestic bliss. Please tell me. The show is canon. And not what JM has said on his blog. The plot holes in the episode, Vegas. The rush job in EATG. Earth lost the Ancient’s chair. The Wraith dropped out of orbit, and they knew and were able to take out Earth’s best defense. I think I would have like to see some of what was happening on the Wraith’s ship it this was the case.

Conventional wisdom, you can be risky, you try to go out with a bang. I can understand filler episodes, but they don’t belong when you are leading up to what may possible the last episode of the show/series.

This I don’t understand or get.

Yes a cough sweety would be nice
well she's been out of the limelight for years which is why I said was, if I remember correctly she hasn't really done anything in showbiz since the 80's

I loves me writing god *cough* hehe, um did I say that out loud I'm sure I either read or heard that somewhere, I have a whole new respect for him if it's true

*giggles*

Yeah, it has been a long time, but she still is, a singer, a actress, and one of the best.

And yes you did!

Thanks guys. I need to do more of her stuff. She's just perfection.

Yep, that she is.

[AlbinoMonkeyC]

Screw canon!!!!

[Linda06]

If well if this true, I give him all the credit. I can't crush on him since that is already taken.

*nods head*

I think the only time I saw Brainstorm was when it first aired on television and I didn’t see the whole episode either. And that is still one episode I don’t care to see again any time soon if ever at this point. And the fact I feel this way about this episode and others is sad.

The only ep I've still not seen is Remnants. I wish I never saw Brainstorm and The Shrine and Inquisition and Identity and The Lost Tribe and Vegas and probably numerous other eps

Where is the character development? I know I am no closer to believing that Teyla is happily settled down with Kanaan. If someone can tell me of a scene after Broken Ties that shows Teyla in domestic bliss. Please tell me. The show is canon. And not what JM has said on his blog. The plot holes in the episode, Vegas. The rush job in EATG. Earth lost the Ancient’s chair. The Wraith dropped out of orbit, and they knew and were able to take out Earth’s best defense. I think I would have like to see some of what was happening on the Wraith’s ship it this was the case.

hmm lemme see.... A scene after broken ties.....well......*scratches head* um........Nope I got nothing

*giggles*

Yeah, it has been a long time, but she still is, a singer, a actress, and one of the best.

And yes you did!

Yes she is

Oops

Screw canon!!!!

Canon is overrated

[Atlantis4Life]

Yes, Season 5 was just full of wasted potential because it contained so many episodes that added nothing of value to SGA. Because of this, I still haven't been able to watch Season 5 in full. If I did, then I would probably have the same reaction you did because there was so little of what I loved about SGA included in Season 5. Like you mentioned, there was very little Teyla, Ronon and Team moments and too much McKeller.

As for when they knew Season 5 would be the last, I think JM didn't get confirmation until just before they were shooting Gero's masterpiece, Brainstorm. However, he confirmed in his blog that he suspected that Season 5 would be the last long before it was actually confirmed, so there's no excuse for how Season 5 turned out. IMO, even if SGA had been confirmed for several more seasons, there wouldn't have been any excuse for how Season 5 turned out because it was just a badly written, poorly executed season.

In fact, I think that his believing that Season 5 could be the last was why that season was filled with what I consider the writers' special projects in prep for their next gigs. For instance, I know that JM was working on a non-SGA horror project, so I'm not surprised that we got Whispers - a horror episode. BW seemed to want to practice for SGU by writing The Shrine - his version of character-heavy drama. RC used Vegas to play with non-SG type storytelling and camera angles. I'm not sure what was going on with Carl Binder, but it wasn't good for SGA. And, of course Gero was allowed to indulge his geek gets the girl of his dreams fantasies. In short, Season 5 was great for the writers, but bad for fans like me who wanted see a well-thought out season that flowed well and did the SGA characters justice.

Hello Maxbo

Yes. I completely agree with you here. I think you have explained why season 5 was such a mess. It’s sad that it was a mess on purpose. Brainstorm was so terrible, and that episode could have been good if it hadn’t been for McKeller. And, The Shrine was awfully bad too. I know Brad got some kind of award for it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a good concept that didn’t have good execution. I didn’t like how all of a sudden Rodney was “in love” with Keller. I didn’t like the “Big Brother” video moments that were modeled after episodes where it actually worked like Letters from Pegasus and McKay and Mrs. Miller. It just seemed like a poor rip-off that was supposed to pull at my heartstrings. I didn’t like the pier moment with Shep and McKay, which was supposed to arouse the same poignant feelings as the Beckett/McKay pier moment in Sunday. And speaking of Beckett, McKay knew he was going to die and he never asked to see his best friend? Give me a break! Then again, perhaps Sheppard was supposed to be his new best friend for unexplained reasons, and the strong bond of friendship that McKay and Beckett had (realistically, mind you) just didn‘t matter anymore. Yes, Shep and McKay are friends, but I think that almost the entire episode should have been handled/written differently and more respectfully of all of the characters in the “Stargate: Atlantis World.” Parts of the episode were good, but hardly enough at all. And, don’t get me started on how badly he wrote (or didn’t write) for Teyla and Ronon... Whew! I need to get off of this one and move on.


As far as the overall impact/impression that I have of season 5 goes, here’s what I told someone else on another thread elsewhere:

“... So anyway, the main difference between how Lost and SGA were set up is that SGA’s premise allowed for that show to run for 10 seasons - easy, just like SG-1. I had hoped that they would’ve spent season 5 the same way that Lost spent its 5th season in cleaning up mistakes and getting things back on track, but that, however, didn’t happen. Instead, it felt like season 5 was a mess. Sure, there were some good and ok episodes, but it could have been so much more, and so much tighter. It was kind of loose in terms of a theme for the season. Were they exploring? Not very much. Were they fighting an enemy? Um, kinda sorta, here and there. Were ALL of the main characters growing and/or evolving individually, and especially together as a team? Not really. Were there some good team episodes? Very few, if any. And about the team, is Beckett ever going to get his old spot back (they could make it happen), will they ever bump into Ford, are they just going to leave Elizabeth floating in space forever? Beats me. Did they encounter and learn about new alien life and civilizations? Well, they got the “encounter” part of this down in First Contact (Great Ep) and a couple of other episodes, some of the alien life wasn’t exactly new to our SGA team, and the team didn’t really learn much. The list goes on. Believe me. That’s ultimately the depressing thing about Atlantis: It never got to achieve the greatness that it promised its fans from the start. It was a great show with a great cast and great characters that could have been so much more, but it wasn’t. And, it won’t be...”

Now I know why S5 caused me to come to these conclusions. The writers/producers were just “playing” with it in order to prepare for things to come. Sad indeed.

Too bad Teyla never got the development she deserved as a character. Even Ronon got more episodes dedicated to him and his back story than she did. It really is sad...

I think I love this woman. Her grasp of the importance of world-building is what I wish the SGA writers had because then, perhaps, they wouldn't have found Teyla, a woman from a world they had to create, so hard to write for.

Yes, I agree here too. And, these writers don't have much imagination left, so creating an exciting world and people for her to come from was a great "outline" for the character, but when it came down to actually doing it, I don't think that they could. Just my opinion here. I'm looking forward to the novel too. I'm really hoping for a good ending to the Atlantis story.

= Awesome!!!

[AlbinoMonkeyC]

Canon is overrated

[Atlantis4Life]

@Hope24

I don't know if I've said this before, but your signature is great. Teyla is so pretty. She looks gorgeous there.


@Jeyla4ever

Great signature too. You guys make me slightly envious that It'll be a loooong while before I get to have one.


@Linda06

Don't get rid of the cough. It's what I love about you.



I've been catching up on my reading here, and I'm enjoying the conversations, cool info, and great pics/sigs as usual. Well wishes to all.

[Linda06]

Hello Maxbo

Yes. I completely agree with you here. I think you have explained why season 5 was such a mess. It’s sad that it was a mess on purpose. Brainstorm was so terrible, and that episode could have been good if it hadn’t been for McKeller. And, The Shrine was awfully bad too. I know Brad got some kind of award for it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a good concept that didn’t have good execution. I didn’t like how all of a sudden Rodney was “in love” with Keller. I didn’t like the “Big Brother” video moments that were modeled after episodes where it actually worked like Letters from Pegasus and McKay and Mrs. Miller. It just seemed like a poor rip-off that was supposed to pull at my heartstrings. I didn’t like the pier moment with Shep and McKay, which was supposed to arouse the same poignant feelings as the Beckett/McKay pier moment in Sunday. And speaking of Beckett, McKay knew he was going to die and he never asked to see his best friend? Give me a break! Then again, perhaps Sheppard was supposed to be his new best friend for unexplained reasons, and the strong bond of friendship that McKay and Beckett had (realistically, mind you) just didn‘t matter anymore. Yes, Shep and McKay are friends, but I think that almost the entire episode should have been handled/written differently and more respectfully of all of the characters in the “Stargate: Atlantis World.” Parts of the episode were good, but hardly enough at all. And, don’t get me started on how badly he wrote (or didn’t write) for Teyla and Ronon... Whew! I need to get off of this one and move on.


As far as the overall impact/impression that I have of season 5 goes, here’s what I told someone else on another thread elsewhere:

“... So anyway, the main difference between how Lost and SGA were set up is that SGA’s premise allowed for that show to run for 10 seasons - easy, just like SG-1. I had hoped that they would’ve spent season 5 the same way that Lost spent its 5th season in cleaning up mistakes and getting things back on track, but that, however, didn’t happen. Instead, it felt like season 5 was a mess. Sure, there were some good and ok episodes, but it could have been so much more, and so much tighter. It was kind of loose in terms of a theme for the season. Were they exploring? Not very much. Were they fighting an enemy? Um, kinda sorta, here and there. Were ALL of the main characters growing and/or evolving individually, and especially together as a team? Not really. Were there some good team episodes? Very few, if any. And about the team, is Beckett ever going to get his old spot back (they could make it happen), will they ever bump into Ford, are they just going to leave Elizabeth floating in space forever? Beats me. Did they encounter and learn about new alien life and civilizations? Well, they got the “encounter” part of this down in First Contact (Great Ep) and a couple of other episodes, some of the alien life wasn’t exactly new to our SGA team, and the team didn’t really learn much. The list goes on. Believe me. That’s ultimately the depressing thing about Atlantis: It never got to achieve the greatness that it promised its fans from the start. It was a great show with a great cast and great characters that could have been so much more, but it wasn’t. And, it won’t be...”

Now I know why S5 caused me to come to these conclusions. The writers/producers were just “playing” with it in order to prepare for things to come. Sad indeed.

Too bad Teyla never got the development she deserved as a character. Even Ronon got more episodes dedicated to him and his back story than she did. It really is sad...





Yes, I agree here too. And, these writers don't have much imagination left, so creating an exciting world and people for her to come from was a great "outline" for the character, but when it came down to actually doing it, I don't think that they could. Just my opinion here. I'm looking forward to the novel too. I'm really hoping for a good ending to the Atlantis story.

= Awesome!!!

Okay, that was so well written I'm not even gonna try and top that. You just put your finger on a lot of what was wrong

@Linda06

Don't get rid of the cough. It's what I love about you.

Why thank you *bows*

[Atlantis4Life]

Okay, that was so well written I'm not even gonna try and top that. You just put your finger on a lot of what was wrong

Well, now I have to say "Why thank you as well." *bows deeply* Ugh. My back hurts now, but you're worth it.

Why thank you *bows*

No problem.

[maxbo]

I am not sure what order the episodes were shot, but I am almost certain it wasn’t in the order it was aired. So I totally agree with you there is really no excuse for how season five turned out to be. And then the fact JM confirmed he had suspected that Season 5 would be the show last. I long have felt like this…yeah they turned in a product, but I certainly don’t think that their hearts or attention were focus on that product. Now, what you are saying just confirmed that to me all the more.

But I don’t think I will truly understand these guys. Conventional wisdom, if this maybe the last season, try tying up some unresolved stories arcs. I think we got that for Michael’s story arc. I don’t know what kind of resolution that was for Elizabeth. I know the loss of Tori did put a limitation on what they could do. But still…

Where is the character development? I know I am no closer to believing that Teyla is happily settled down with Kanaan. If someone can tell me of a scene after Broken Ties that shows Teyla in domestic bliss. Please tell me. The show is canon. And not what JM has said on his blog. The plot holes in the episode, Vegas. The rush job in EATG. Earth lost the Ancient’s chair. The Wraith dropped out of orbit, and they knew and were able to take out Earth’s best defense. I think I would have like to see some of what was happening on the Wraith’s ship it this was the case.

Conventional wisdom, you can be risky, you try to go out with a bang. I can understand filler episodes, but they don’t belong when you are leading up to what may possible the last episode of the show/series.

This I don’t understand or get.

I don't understand these guys either because I agree that they should have done everything in their power to try to make Season 5 the best season possible. If it was to be their last, then they could have gone out well and had more of an audience that would likely have forgiven the past and followed them to their next projects. As it stands now, if I see Mallozzi, Mullie, Wright, Cooper and Gero's names on future (non-SGA) projects, then that will be my cue to run in the opposite direction.

Perhaps being fortunate enough to work for so many years for the same franchise made them so complacent, so cocky that they don't remember what it's like to not have the backing of studio executives and a ready-made audience willing to give them a chance no matter what.

Screw canon!!!!

Indeed - especially when canon is handled in such a boneheaded, haphazard fashion. I've seen fanfic written by writers new to SGA that make more sense that what I seen on screen.

The only ep I've still not seen is Remnants. I wish I never saw Brainstorm and The Shrine and Inquisition and Identity and The Lost Tribe and Vegas and probably numerous other eps

I've only seen clips of Brainstorm because I knew from the beginning that I wouldn't be able to stomach watching that episode in full. However, there are several others that I have no desire to ever see again. In fact, the only Season 5 episode that I've been able to watch over and over without any qualms is Daedalus Variations - the only true team episode of the season.

There are a handful of others that I enjoyed (Search & Rescue, Broken Ties, The Queen, First Contact and The Prodigal), but unfortunately each of those also had some elements that bugged me.

Hello Maxbo

Yes. I completely agree with you here. I think you have explained why season 5 was such a mess. It’s sad that it was a mess on purpose. Brainstorm was so terrible, and that episode could have been good if it hadn’t been for McKeller. And, The Shrine was awfully bad too. I know Brad got some kind of award for it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a good concept that didn’t have good execution. I didn’t like how all of a sudden Rodney was “in love” with Keller. I didn’t like the “Big Brother” video moments that were modeled after episodes where it actually worked like Letters from Pegasus and McKay and Mrs. Miller. It just seemed like a poor rip-off that was supposed to pull at my heartstrings. I didn’t like the pier moment with Shep and McKay, which was supposed to arouse the same poignant feelings as the Beckett/McKay pier moment in Sunday. And speaking of Beckett, McKay knew he was going to die and he never asked to see his best friend? Give me a break! Then again, perhaps Sheppard was supposed to be his new best friend for unexplained reasons, and the strong bond of friendship that McKay and Beckett had (realistically, mind you) just didn‘t matter anymore. Yes, Shep and McKay are friends, but I think that almost the entire episode should have been handled/written differently and more respectfully of all of the characters in the “Stargate: Atlantis World.” Parts of the episode were good, but hardly enough at all. And, don’t get me started on how badly he wrote (or didn’t write) for Teyla and Ronon... Whew! I need to get off of this one and move on.


As far as the overall impact/impression that I have of season 5 goes, here’s what I told someone else on another thread elsewhere:

“... So anyway, the main difference between how Lost and SGA were set up is that SGA’s premise allowed for that show to run for 10 seasons - easy, just like SG-1. I had hoped that they would’ve spent season 5 the same way that Lost spent its 5th season in cleaning up mistakes and getting things back on track, but that, however, didn’t happen. Instead, it felt like season 5 was a mess. Sure, there were some good and ok episodes, but it could have been so much more, and so much tighter. It was kind of loose in terms of a theme for the season. Were they exploring? Not very much. Were they fighting an enemy? Um, kinda sorta, here and there. Were ALL of the main characters growing and/or evolving individually, and especially together as a team? Not really. Were there some good team episodes? Very few, if any. And about the team, is Beckett ever going to get his old spot back (they could make it happen), will they ever bump into Ford, are they just going to leave Elizabeth floating in space forever? Beats me. Did they encounter and learn about new alien life and civilizations? Well, they got the “encounter” part of this down in First Contact (Great Ep) and a couple of other episodes, some of the alien life wasn’t exactly new to our SGA team, and the team didn’t really learn much. The list goes on. Believe me. That’s ultimately the depressing thing about Atlantis: It never got to achieve the greatness that it promised its fans from the start. It was a great show with a great cast and great characters that could have been so much more, but it wasn’t. And, it won’t be...”

Now I know why S5 caused me to come to these conclusions. The writers/producers were just “playing” with it in order to prepare for things to come. Sad indeed.

Too bad Teyla never got the development she deserved as a character. Even Ronon got more episodes dedicated to him and his back story than she did. It really is sad...





Yes, I agree here too. And, these writers don't have much imagination left, so creating an exciting world and people for her to come from was a great "outline" for the character, but when it came down to actually doing it, I don't think that they could. Just my opinion here. I'm looking forward to the novel too. I'm really hoping for a good ending to the Atlantis story.

= Awesome!!!

Hi Atlantis4Life. Great post and you've summarized some of the many, many things that were wrong with the lack of prep SGA's writers did for SGA and its characters. Whenever they hit a roadblock with characters (due to the lack of character bibles) they either got rid of them (Ford, Carson and Elizabeth) and/or wallpapered them (Teyla, Ronon, and also Ford and Carson before they got rid of them).

Although they used Elizabeth more than they did Teyla, Ronon, Ford and Carson, they rarely took the time to develop her the way they should have. Here was a character that was created as a world-class negotiator and yet these writers often refused to work this into SGA's storylines. Just as they refused to write Teyla's addition to the Atlantis expedition in a way that made sense. As the leader of her people, Teyla should have been treated more as a visiting statesperson than as only a member of Sheppard's team. Yes, she could have still been on his team, but the lines of authority should have been a lot more gray than they were. For one brief moment, in Season 2's Instinct, it appeared that they writers were actually going to touch on this a bit during this scene:

From INSTINCT transcript:

[Back to Dex and Teyla, as she regains consciousness.]

DEX: Teyla!

TEYLA: [sitting up] What happened? Where's Colonel Sheppard?

DEX: He went after the creature!

TEYLA: You let him go alone?!?

DEX: He wanted me to stay with you.

TEYLA: [with an exasperated breath] I am fine. Go!

DEX: Aren't we supposed to follow his orders?

TEYLA: Sometimes, we are allowed to make exceptions.

DEX: And who decides when it's one of those times?

TEYLA: We do.

DEX: [springs to his feet] That's good enough.

Looking back, that episode did a good job in highlighting some of the differences between Teyla and Ronon and this scene in particular illustrates how the non-military trained Teyla viewed Sheppard's orders in contrast to how the military trained Ronon viewed Sheppard's orders. Where Ronon was used to the strict military stucture, Teyla had a more fluid view, which was understandable because in addition to not being military herself, she was also a leader in her own right, so she wasn't used to taking orders.

IMO, SGA's writers should have taken advantage of the opportunities of natural conflict that could have resulted from Elizabeth being the leader of Atlantis, Sheppard being the head of the military and Teyla being the Pegasus galaxy expert and leader of her people. Those conflicts could have led to interesting character development for each character as well as for the other characters like Rodney, Ronon, Carson, Ford (yes, Ford), etc.

As for The Shrine, I share your negative opinion of this episode and can't believe that BW received a nomination for it. As bad as Brainstorm was, at least by the time it rolled around I knew that Season 5 sucked, but The Shrine was different because, as episode #6, it aired during when I still had hope for the season. Unfortunately, Brad Wright showed such a careless lack of understanding of SGA's characters that I knew that the season wouldn't get any better - because when the show's creator didn't care enough to get the characters right, then there was no hope of salvaging SGA. At that point, I had resigned myself to watching the remaining episodes for the pleasure of seeing the actors.

I think the upcoming novels are the only way we're going to get a good ending for SGA because even if there is a movie, I don't trust SGA's writers not to mess it up the way they did the series.

[Linda06]

Well, now I have to say "Why thank you as well." *bows deeply* Ugh. My back hurts now, but you're worth it.



No problem.

Ooh, ouch Want me to massage it

I don't understand these guys either because I agree that they should have done everything in their power to try to make Season 5 the best season possible. If it was to be their last, then they could have gone out well and had more of an audience that would likely have forgiven the past and followed them to their next projects. As it stands now, if I see Mallozzi, Mullie, Wright, Cooper and Gero's names on future (non-SGA) projects, then that will be my cue to run in the opposite direction.

Perhaps being fortunate enough to work for so many years for the same franchise made them so complacent, so cocky that they don't remember what it's like to not have the backing of studio executives and a ready-made audience willing to give them a chance no matter what.

If I ever see Mallozzi, Mullie or Gero's name in any other project I'll run the other way as fast as I can screaming like a mad woman

I've only seen clips of Brainstorm because I knew from the beginning that I wouldn't be able to stomach watching that episode in full. However, there are several others that I have no desire to ever see again. In fact, the only Season 5 episode that I've been able to watch over and over without any qualms is Daedalus Variations - the only true team episode of the season.

There are a handful of others that I enjoyed (Search & Rescue, Broken Ties, The Queen, First Contact and The Prodigal), but unfortunately each of those also had some elements that bugged me.

Lucky you But fortunately for me goldfish memory comes in quite handy at times I haven't watched any ep from any SGA season since it finished And I have no desire at all to watch any either I've seen myself turn the channel on Sky when an ep comes on cause I just can't stomach watching it As soon as I hear Rodney's voice I wanna grab something and throw it at the screen But it's an expensive TV so instead I turn the channel

Hi Atlantis4Life. Great post and you've summarized some of the many, many things that were wrong with the lack of prep SGA's writers did for SGA and its characters. Whenever they hit a roadblock with characters (due to the lack of character bibles) they either got rid of them (Ford, Carson and Elizabeth) and/or wallpapered them (Teyla, Ronon, and also Ford and Carson before they got rid of them).

Although they used Elizabeth more than they did Teyla, Ronon, Ford and Carson, they rarely took the time to develop her the way they should have. Here was a character that was created as a world-class negotiator and yet these writers often refused to work this into SGA's storylines. Just as they refused to write Teyla's addition to the Atlantis expedition in a way that made sense. As the leader of her people, Teyla should have been treated more as a visiting statesperson than as only a member of Sheppard's team. Yes, she could have still been on his team, but the lines of authority should have been a lot more gray than they were. For one brief moment, in Season 2's Instinct, it appeared that they writers were actually going to touch on this a bit during this scene:

Looking back, that episode did a good job in highlighting some of the differences between Teyla and Ronon and this scene in particular illustrates how the non-military trained Teyla viewed Sheppard's orders in contrast to how the military trained Ronon viewed Sheppard's orders. Where Ronon was used to the strict military stucture, Teyla had a more fluid view, which was understandable because in addition to not being military herself, she was also a leader in her own right, so she wasn't used to taking orders.

IMO, SGA's writers should have taken advantage of the opportunities of natural conflict that could have resulted from Elizabeth being the leader of Atlantis, Sheppard being the head of the military and Teyla being the Pegasus galaxy expert and leader of her people. Those conflicts could have led to interesting character development for each character as well as for the other characters like Rodney, Ronon, Carson, Ford (yes, Ford), etc.

See, I never understood that. Here we have, people from different walks of life, military and civilian working together, add to that the leader of an Alien culture. I mean of course there is gonna be differing opinions, they are gonna see different situations differently. But we didn't see conflict between them very much. Sure we saw it a little in Hotzone with John/Elizabeth and in Letters from Pegasus with Teyla/John, but I can't really remember any other differences of how to handle a situation. I would have also liked to have seen a friendship and understanding develop between Elizabeth and Teyla, two leaders, sort of diplomats if you like, It would have been good to see this develop. But then we all know all they were interested in was the McShep show and everyone else be damned

As for The Shrine, I share your negative opinion of this episode and can't believe that BW received a nomination for it. As bad as Brainstorm was, at least by the time it rolled around I knew that Season 5 sucked, but The Shrine was different because, as episode #6, it aired during when I still had hope for the season. Unfortunately, Brad Wright showed such a careless lack of understanding of SGA's characters that I knew that the season wouldn't get any better - because when the show's creator didn't care enough to get the characters right, then there was no hope of salvaging SGA. At that point, I had resigned myself to watching the remaining episodes for the pleasure of seeing the actors.

Ah, another ep I wish I never watched. This was a pretty ridiculous ep. The Shrine was supposed to be a tearjerker???? I FAIL of massive proportions. I spent most of it rolling my eyes it was so ridiculous. Rodney running around shouting out for John??? *CRINGE* Then the declaration of love out of know where??? At this point I was scratching my head so hard I think I gave myself a headache And then drilling into Rodney's skull with a DIY tool??? In a dirty cave??? I mean....WHAT??? I think I scratched my head right through to my skull And Brainstorm was just so ridiculously bad that I wouldn't even know where to begin

The onlt actors I am even interested in seeing again are Rachel Luttrell and Jason Mamoa

[maxbo]

Here's Jo Graham's January 6, 2010 LJ entry about the importance of backstories for characters:

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/32359.html

Spoiler:

Death Game – What Did I Enjoy the Most:

Showing off my shiny new icon for Death Game, and also answering a reader question, "What did you enjoy most about writing Death Game? What's your favorite part?"

I really enjoyed a lot of things about it -- the adventure, the teaminess, the lighter tone after a couple of pretty serious books, but I think my favorite thing was being able to spend some significant time on character backstories.

Backstory is always one of my favorite things. How did they become who they are? What choices did they make to get here? What is their particular milieu, their particular culture and moment in time that led them to be precisely who they are standing in this place? Often on screen we get tiny, tantalizing glimpses -- of life on Athos, of John's family in "Outcast", of Sateda in the episode of the same name. But there's never time to see more. I'm always left wondering what was around that corner.

In many ways, Death Game is about stories -- the stories we tell about ourselves, and how we use stories to make our place in the universe make sense to us. And so we see a lot of backstory: how Radek came to work for the Stargate program, how Rodney joined the Atlantis Expedition, how Teyla walked through her first Stargate. There are three parallel backstories as well, about how Ronon, Lorne, and John decided to join the military. The last one, a look at John at nineteen, was particularly interesting to write, and drew on a lot of personal experiences. I'm also very fond of Lorne's story, which ties into an SG-1 episode.

There were some little scenes that were wonderful fun -- Rodney and Sam Carter, Radek and Daniel Jackson, John and his mother. I think my favorite may be Teyla's story! But then I love writing Teyla. She's my favorite viewpoint character.

She had my undivided attention when she wrote that "Backstory is always one of my favorite things" and then proceeded to detail why. This is the type of development that I wanted to see on screen - the kind of development that can only occur when writers have well-developed backstories (character bibles) for their characters.

And, here's her response to one of the reader comments:

Spoiler:

jo graham wrote:
Jan. 6th, 2010 04:13 pm (local)

When I'm writing something like Black Ships, often the only thing that most readers will know about a culture like that of Millawanda is what they read in Black Ships. Sure, there are a few academics who study the intersection of Hittite and Arzawan cultures in the Late Bronze Age, but most people have never, ever heard of it! And so I have to take it very seriously. I am the only thing they have ever heard of millions of people who are dead. Sometimes it gets almost paralytic. If I don't know, if I have to make something up, what if it's wrong? What if I am misrepresenting them? But I just have to shake myself out of it and say that the best I can do is try my best.

Reader comment: I would argue that the same is true of writing a Pegasus culture like the Athosians or Satedans -- though of course your responsibility to a fictional culture like that of Athos is not the same as your responsibility to a real culture such as Radek's (or for that matter John's), there's still a way in which you owe it to the culture and to the characters to hew to what's real and what's true.

Jo Graham's response: Yes, that. And not to take shortcuts, but to do the worldbuilding and think about consistency and making sense. For example, I've done a ton of writing and thinking about Athosian culture that will never go in the books. But I need to know it. I need to know it to make the culture internally consistent. Right now, today, there's an interesting conversation going on between me and Melissa about Wraith sex. Now, there's not going to be any NC-17 Wraith sex in Homecoming, but we need to know how it works. How does sex work in a society with such a significant gender imbalance, and what does that lead to culturally?

With the Athosians, I started with the reality of the Cullings. If this periodic disaster is a fact of life, how must culture have adapted to that? How has the family adapted? One thing we see in canon that has to be critical is adoption. Many children must be orphaned before adulthood, and so Athosian society must have a mechanism for those children to be provided for. They can't afford to just neglect them. We see that Teyla was raised by Charin. What are the cultural values this leads to? What does Athosian culture teach is right in terms of how to raise children? And down the road, what does that mean Teyla's ingrained attitudes are about what motherhood means, what a good mother is, or how Torren should be raised?

A lot of things fall into place when you start initially with the questions. This is a writing thing I learned from Melissa years ago, before I knew her, from her book, Conceiving the Heavens: Creating the Science Fiction Novel. And it's amazing to actually work with her in person!

In this entry she shares why it's so important for writers to take the time to "worldbuild" when creating characters and cultures and she gives credit to Melissa Scott's book, Conceiving the Heavens: Creating the Science Fiction Novel, for instilling the importance of starting with questions when developing backstories.

I love how she notes that although most of the details of the backstories she develops will never be included in her books, these backstories are necessary in orderto create deeper, more consistent characterization and richer worlds. For instance, she notes that she and Melissa Scott have been discussing Wraith sex even though their books won't include any explicit Wraith sex scenes because by discussing this subject they've started questioning the broader implications of how sex may "work in a society with such a significant gender imbalance, and what does that lead to culturally?" The answers to those questions are the type of details that writers need in order to keep storylines fresh while also maintaining consistency in their storytelling.

And, I also love how in this paragragh she uses the Wraith cullings as a springboard to determining how Teyla might raise her son:

"With the Athosians, I started with the reality of the Cullings. If this periodic disaster is a fact of life, how must culture have adapted to that? How has the family adapted? One thing we see in canon that has to be critical is adoption. Many children must be orphaned before adulthood, and so Athosian society must have a mechanism for those children to be provided for. They can't afford to just neglect them. We see that Teyla was raised by Charin. What are the cultural values this leads to? What does Athosian culture teach is right in terms of how to raise children? And down the road, what does that mean Teyla's ingrained attitudes are about what motherhood means, what a good mother is, or how Torren should be raised?"

This is the type of creative process that I wish SGA's writers had used because if they had, then they wouldn't have considered Teyla and Ronon the hardest characters to write because they would have had a wealth of backstory information to pull from.

[Linda06]

Now see, why couldn't the SGA PTB be as dedicated as this wonderful lady. Why couldn't they have set a foundation so to speak where SGA and the characters could have developed and grown. Then maybe just maybe SGA wouldn't have felt so.........Disjointed and inconsistent.

So are they available yet, or is she still in the process of writing them?

[Atlantis4Life]

I don't understand these guys either because I agree that they should have done everything in their power to try to make Season 5 the best season possible. If it was to be their last, then they could have gone out well and had more of an audience that would likely have forgiven the past and followed them to their next projects. As it stands now, if I see Mallozzi, Mullie, Wright, Cooper and Gero's names on future (non-SGA) projects, then that will be my cue to run in the opposite direction.

Perhaps being fortunate enough to work for so many years for the same franchise made them so complacent, so cocky that they don't remember what it's like to not have the backing of studio executives and a ready-made audience willing to give them a chance no matter what.



Indeed - especially when canon is handled in such a boneheaded, haphazard fashion. I've seen fanfic written by writers new to SGA that make more sense that what I seen on screen.



I've only seen clips of Brainstorm because I knew from the beginning that I wouldn't be able to stomach watching that episode in full. However, there are several others that I have no desire to ever see again. In fact, the only Season 5 episode that I've been able to watch over and over without any qualms is Daedalus Variations - the only true team episode of the season.

There are a handful of others that I enjoyed (Search & Rescue, Broken Ties, The Queen, First Contact and The Prodigal), but unfortunately each of those also had some elements that bugged me.



Hi Atlantis4Life. Great post and you've summarized some of the many, many things that were wrong with the lack of prep SGA's writers did for SGA and its characters. Whenever they hit a roadblock with characters (due to the lack of character bibles) they either got rid of them (Ford, Carson and Elizabeth) and/or wallpapered them (Teyla, Ronon, and also Ford and Carson before they got rid of them).

Although they used Elizabeth more than they did Teyla, Ronon, Ford and Carson, they rarely took the time to develop her the way they should have. Here was a character that was created as a world-class negotiator and yet these writers often refused to work this into SGA's storylines. Just as they refused to write Teyla's addition to the Atlantis expedition in a way that made sense. As the leader of her people, Teyla should have been treated more as a visiting statesperson than as only a member of Sheppard's team. Yes, she could have still been on his team, but the lines of authority should have been a lot more gray than they were. For one brief moment, in Season 2's Instinct, it appeared that they writers were actually going to touch on this a bit during this scene:

From INSTINCT transcript:

[Back to Dex and Teyla, as she regains consciousness.]

DEX: Teyla!

TEYLA: [sitting up] What happened? Where's Colonel Sheppard?

DEX: He went after the creature!

TEYLA: You let him go alone?!?

DEX: He wanted me to stay with you.

TEYLA: [with an exasperated breath] I am fine. Go!

DEX: Aren't we supposed to follow his orders?

TEYLA: Sometimes, we are allowed to make exceptions.

DEX: And who decides when it's one of those times?

TEYLA: We do.

DEX: [springs to his feet] That's good enough.

Looking back, that episode did a good job in highlighting some of the differences between Teyla and Ronon and this scene in particular illustrates how the non-military trained Teyla viewed Sheppard's orders in contrast to how the military trained Ronon viewed Sheppard's orders. Where Ronon was used to the strict military stucture, Teyla had a more fluid view, which was understandable because in addition to not being military herself, she was also a leader in her own right, so she wasn't used to taking orders.

IMO, SGA's writers should have taken advantage of the opportunities of natural conflict that could have resulted from Elizabeth being the leader of Atlantis, Sheppard being the head of the military and Teyla being the Pegasus galaxy expert and leader of her people. Those conflicts could have led to interesting character development for each character as well as for the other characters like Rodney, Ronon, Carson, Ford (yes, Ford), etc.

As for The Shrine, I share your negative opinion of this episode and can't believe that BW received a nomination for it. As bad as Brainstorm was, at least by the time it rolled around I knew that Season 5 sucked, but The Shrine was different because, as episode #6, it aired during when I still had hope for the season. Unfortunately, Brad Wright showed such a careless lack of understanding of SGA's characters that I knew that the season wouldn't get any better - because when the show's creator didn't care enough to get the characters right, then there was no hope of salvaging SGA. At that point, I had resigned myself to watching the remaining episodes for the pleasure of seeing the actors.

I think the upcoming novels are the only way we're going to get a good ending for SGA because even if there is a movie, I don't trust SGA's writers not to mess it up the way they did the series.

Maxbo, once again in your wisdom, you are so right. They missed almost every opportunity to make Teyla a real part of what was going on, and to make her more than just a tool that they used whenever they needed to get inside of a Wraith’s head.

----------------------------------------------
Here’s an example from First Contact:

CORRIDOR. John and Richard are walking along. Richard has a large bag over his shoulder.

WOOLSEY: As soon as the Daedalus unloads its supplies, we'll be heading off to meet up with Todd and one of his Hives.

SHEPPARD: You really think he's gonna show up, huh, and let you guys try out Doctor Keller's gene therapy on a few of his guys?

WOOLSEY: Well, we held up our end of the deal. We let him use Teyla to take control of an alliance of Wraith Hives.
----------------------------------------------

Now, don’t get me wrong. I like this episode, but I didn’t like that line. Teyla isn’t a thing, she’s a person. They may have allowed for Teyla to help as a part of the Atlantis expedition, or supported Teyla in her choosing to help Todd, but they didn’t let him use her. She isn’t a car or a pen that you let someone use as long as they promise they will give it back.

But, this is how they wrote (or didn’t write) for her. And it’s no small wonder that she’s the character that’s coming in dead last on the new GW poll that’s out “Which Atlantis cast member would you MOST like to see guest star on the new show?”

Ford hasn’t been on the show since the middle of season 2 and he has almost twice the votes as Teyla. Keller and Wolsey even got more votes. This is because every other character was written in such a way that they make more sense. It is so sad. Keller is at least a doctor that can help via the stones, and Wolsey being from the IOA would make a realistic appearance back on Earth during discussions of what to do to help the people stranded on the Destiny. Ford is lost in space, so it’s possible that he could be encountered after an FTL jump. Elizabeth is a replicator capable of transmitting signals, and she’s floating next to a gate, frozen. Something could happen to unfreeze her or someone could pick her up and befriend her while traveling farther out into the universe... Again, this is so sad. It’s this sort of thing that makes me frustrated with how badly they handled her character. The writers’ disrespect of the Teyla character adds to my lack of respect for them. This may sound harsh, but that’s how I feel.

Poor Rachel really did bring a lot to the table. If it weren’t for her, Teyla would have been as boring as a pile of bricks. The writing just wasn’t there.

I agree with you that we needed more moments like that great rarity you showed from Instinct. As you’ve pointed out, they didn’t do right by so many characters, but I think Teyla gets the award in the “most short shrifted” catagory. So much more could have been done, so much more...

I'll end this on a more positive note and say "Have a great day."

Ooh, ouch Want me to massage it

Nope, I took some advil and I’m okay. Thanks for the offer. You’re such a sweetheart!

If I ever see Mallozzi, Mullie or Gero's name in any other project I'll run the other way as fast as I can screaming like a mad woman

I’m starting to feel the same way. Gero’s done some good work, but he has also been very disappointing too. He wrote that line in First Contact. Need I say more?

As far as Mallozzi, Mullie, and even Wright go, I gave up on them a long time ago.
If they surprise me, great. But, I don't expect anything from them.

Have a great day.

[Atlantis4Life]

@Maxbo

I just read your latest entry, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you for providing those quotes from Jo Graham. Now I know that the book will be good. She sounds like the kind of writer that Atlantis needed all along. Too bad that we won't actually get to "see" what she's written on screen, but at least we get to see it in our mind's eye. She is so right on so many levels. Thanks.

[maxbo]

Now see, why couldn't the SGA PTB be as dedicated as this wonderful lady. Why couldn't they have set a foundation so to speak where SGA and the characters could have developed and grown. Then maybe just maybe SGA wouldn't have felt so.........Disjointed and inconsistent.

So are they available yet, or is she still in the process of writing them?

No, their books (Stargate Atlantis: Legacy, Homecoming, Book 1 and Stargate Atlantis: Legacy, Death Game, Book 2) aren't available yet. I have Death Game on advance order mode on Amazon.com, but I can't find Homecoming on that site for some reason. I found Homecoming on a different site ( http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/g/jo-graham/), but the availability dates are screwy because book 2, Death Game is listed as coming out in July 2010, but book 1, Homecoming is listed as coming out later in October 2010.

As for the SGA writers - yes, it absolutely sucks that they weren't as dedicated to SGA, the series, as Jo and Melissa are to the SGA novels. And, what's even more amazing is that they didn't seem to care if SGA's viewers found out about their lack of dedication because the internet is full of comments they've made confirming how little thought they put into crafting SGA. Amazing.

The only good thing about SGA, the series, endiing is that I no longer have to be concerned about how much more Mallozzi & Co. could screw over the characters before the end.