How was Carson Beckett cloned? (spoilers for "Sunday" & "The Kindred")

[morrismike]

they used magnets

[Skie]

Michael is just that awesome

Well he was awesome ridiculous. Look what he achieved in 2 years. First got is super-bugs, than his hybrids, cloning with memories, a refined Hoffan drug. Oh, and not to mention he got to Atlantis and his stunner-bubble. This guy is a super-giga-genious. I just wonder how he got all those resources and facilities if you think he had no friends among humans or wraith. Well the worshippers but what can they do but worshipp. And naturally, if others attempt to use his research like Keller and the refined retrovirus who takes away the feeding mechanism they fail of course, why, just because it was not Michael who did it. End of Story.

they used magnets

What do you mean by that?

[Hellraiser-89]

Well he was awesome ridiculous. Look what he achieved in 2 years. First got is super-bugs, than his hybrids, cloning with memories, a refined Hoffan drug. Oh, and not to mention he got to Atlantis and his stunner-bubble. This guy is a super-giga-genious. I just wonder how he got all those resources and facilities if you think he had no friends among humans or wraith. Well the worshippers but what can they do but worshipp. And naturally, if others attempt to use his research like Keller and the refined retrovirus who takes away the feeding mechanism they fail of course, why, just because it was not Michael who did it. End of Story.

It's not a stun bubble!
Actually I think Michael served as the handy villain so to speak. Whenever they needed a threat that wasn't the Wraith or Replicators, in came Michael, even more armed than before. I still liked the character, but I think most of the things you mentioned were just plot devices.

[Skie]

It's not a stun bubble!
Actually I think Michael served as the handy villain so to speak. Whenever they needed a threat that wasn't the Wraith or Replicators, in came Michael, even more armed than before. I still liked the character, but I think most of the things you mentioned were just plot devices.

Yes I agree, he was an interesting character but with everything overused, it gets annoying. Always getting him is just another example of worsened writing in SGA, because they couldn't think of another threat. I would have him only achieved one of the many things he did, come with this threat, let the lanteans deal with it and then get killed. But instead their dragging this on and on so much, you are really happy in the end that he died. I would have preferred that you would somehow regret his death, to show us what huge damage experimenting on people, humans, wraiths (and not forgetting replicators, ups), can do.

[ciannwn]

The Beckett clone having the original's memories makes as much sense as the retrovirus. The mark 2 version turns a Wraith into a human by a process akin to a human turning into a werewolf in a fantasy/horror story - stripping away the Iratus bug DNA results in changes to bone structure, eyes and even teeth. The mark 1 version turned Ellia into a bug monster very quickly - Sheppard, who was infected with it, also started turning into a bug monster but not so quickly.

This is also the fictional universe where beings on the way to ascension can develop super powers like telekinesis, telepathy and instant healing. (The Tao Of Rodney etc) Ascension itself enables beings to transform their physical bodies into energy and ascend to higher planes of existence where they have godlike powers.

Seeing as the retrovirus and ascension don't make real world scientific sense, I don't think we can be too picky when it comes to the Beckett clone's memories.

[Skie]

The Beckett clone having the original's memories makes as much sense as the retrovirus. The mark 2 version turns a Wraith into a human by a process akin to a human turning into a werewolf in a fantasy/horror story - stripping away the Iratus bug DNA results in changes to bone structure, eyes and even teeth.

Yeah, I thought of that too. I mean you take probably away half of the genes, yikes, don't want to know how this "thing" looks like afterwards. A lot of parts missing ...

This is also the fictional universe where beings on the way to ascension can develop super powers like telekinesis, telepathy and instant healing. (The Tao Of Rodney etc) Ascension itself enables beings to transform their physical bodies into energy and ascend to higher planes of existence where they have godlike powers.
Seeing as the retrovirus and ascension don't make real world scientific sense, I don't think we can be too picky when it comes to the Beckett clone's memories.

Yeah well, at least you can "explain" Tao of Rodney and Ascension with genetic evolution. But how Michael copied Becketts memory with NO EQUIPMENT whatsoever, that's gotta be a different story. At least with the other things they tried to give an explanation. But especially in this series, they should have consulted some geneticists.

[Snowman37]

Seeing as the retrovirus and ascension don't make real world scientific sense, I don't think we can be too picky when it comes to the Beckett clone's memories.

Ascension and the Wraith retrovirus don't exist in the real world, so I can let those slide. We already know how cloning works, and we know that memories are contained within the brain, not DNA. That's why the clone story falls apart.

[ciannwn]

Ascension and the Wraith retrovirus don't exist in the real world, so I can let those slide. We already know how cloning works, and we know that memories are contained within the brain, not DNA. That's why the clone story falls apart.

Stargate science is pseudo science so the writers happily used any pseudo science which suited the plot. Here's one example -

Organ Transplants: Can a New Heart Change Your Life—and Your Taste in Music?

Spoiler:

Although he has scant scientific research to back it up, University of Arizona psychologist Gary Schwartz advocates a theory to explain the curious phenomenon. Dubbed cellular memory, the theory holds that, since every cell in the body contains a complete set of genetic material, transplant patients inherit DNA from their donors that determines, in part, how a person thinks, behaves and even eats. "Hearts can have memory, as brains do," says Schwartz. Most doctors, however, say that's the stuff of the Sci-Fi Channel and note that Schwartz based his theory on a study of just 10 transplant patients. "There is no evidence of clinical findings to suggest that [cellular memory exists]," says Dr. Tracy Stevens, medical director of the cardiac transplant program at St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, Mo.

This hasn't stopped writers from using genetic memory in movies, books and TV shows, however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_in_fiction

The TV shows include Star Trek, The X-Files and SG-1 where the Goa'uld have genetic memory.

The Stargate universe is very different to our own in another way too.

We know how Earth humans got here in the real world. In the Stargate universe they're second generation and the creations of the Ancients who evolved on a planet in another galaxy. Stargate Earth humans, however, are still genetically related to all other living things on Earth because the Stargate shows haven't said anything different. This means that the Ancients were also genetically related to all other living things on Earth.

The Ancients used the Dakara super weapon to recreate life in the Milky Way after a plague. This could explain why all living things on Earth are now genetically related, including humans.

http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Dakara_super-weapon

The recreation took place a vague 'few million years' ago. This timeline of life on our real Earth shows that it was long after dinosaurs and early mammals etc.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...html?full=true

This could mean a number of mind boggling things with the following two being examples off the top of my head -

1: The Ancients started evolution off again and 3.8 billion years worth just whizzed along in a few million years. All species in the evolutionary timeline came and went at breakneck speed including dinosaurs.

2: The fossil record is of life which evolved before the plague wiped it out. If Stargate humans had DNA samples from these creatures they'd discover that they weren't genetically related to any of it including early mammals etc.

As Stargate humans are a different species to real world humans and genetic memory exists in the Stargate universe we might as well forget real world science when talking about the show.

[Snowman37]

Stargate science is pseudo science so the writers happily used any pseudo science which suited the plot.

I prefer hard science. Pseudo science is just lazy writing.

This hasn't stopped writers from using genetic memory in movies, books and TV shows, however. The TV shows... ...SG-1 where the Goa'uld have genetic memory.

The Goa'uld are a fictional alien species, so that doesn't strike me as a good example of DNA carrying memories. You'll have my attention if you can cite real world examples in the realm of hard science.

The Stargate universe is very different to our own in another way too.

Perhaps, but when hard science is ignored in favor of fantasy science, I call out bad writing and loose interest in the show.

We know how Earth humans got here in the real world.

Do we? Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormon, Hinduism, Native American religions, aethists, agnostics, evolutionists; I'd hardly say we can agree on how humanity came to be upon the Earth.

In the Stargate universe they're second generation and the creations of the Ancients who evolved on a planet in another galaxy. Stargate Earth humans, however, are still genetically related to all other living things on Earth because the Stargate shows haven't said anything different. This means that the Ancients were also genetically related to all other living things on Earth.

I always found humanity originating on a planet other than Earth to be totally stupid. If we didn't come from Earth, then we wouldn't be genetically related to everything else on the planet. I like SG-1, but the humans aren't from Earth concept is just downright stupid. I get that the writers were trying to give our species an origin, but... no... it's just stupid.

The Ancients used the Dakara super weapon to recreate life in the Milky Way after a plague. This could explain why all living things on Earth are now genetically related, including humans.

Though the episodes about the Dakara device were brilliantly written episodes, the idea that this big thing could seed an entire galaxy with life is just dumb. It's the machine version of God? What? How does it seed life upon the galaxy? No explanations, we're just supposed to roll with it. I'd rather think about it, ask questions, and then roll my eyes upon how none of this makes any sense. Good stories, bad science. I hate bad science!

genetic memory exists in the Stargate universe we might as well forget real world science when talking about the show.

Genetic memory exists in relation to the Goa'uld, but we've never seen it depicted with any other species. If humans have genetic memory, why is it passed on to a clone, but not to an offspring, eh? If we're forgetting real world science, then why bother making any attempts at all at making the show realistic? I thought Stargate was suppose to be science-fiction, not fantasy.

[ciannwn]

I prefer hard science. Pseudo science is just lazy writing.

I don't think you'll find much hard science in any of the Stargate shows.

The Goa'uld are a fictional alien species, so that doesn't strike me as a good example of DNA carrying memories. You'll have my attention if you can cite real world examples in the realm of hard science.

There are no real world examples. The Stargate humans aren't real world humans, though - they exist in a fictional universe which has fictional alien species in it and they were created by humans who came from another galaxy.

Perhaps, but when hard science is ignored in favor of fantasy science, I call out bad writing and loose interest in the show.

I'm surprised that you had any interest in SGA at all after 'The Tao Of Rodney'. McKay is supposed to be an ordinary Earth human - even though he's a genius his IQ still falls within the range for our species. The Ascension machine causes the following to happen -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/314.shtml

BECKETT: ...The scans show a dramatic increase in synaptic interaction throughout all the sections of Rodney’s brain -- much higher than normal human levels.

The result is that McKay develops telepathy, telekinesis and the ability to perform miraculous healing on a dying Zelenka.

Is there any hard scientific evidence that humans can develop super powers if synaptic interaction in the brain is increased?

Do we? Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormon, Hinduism, Native American religions, aethists, agnostics, evolutionists; I'd hardly say we can agree on how humanity came to be upon the Earth.

I was referring to the theory of evolution here which is science. Fossil records are dealt with in palaeontology which is another branch of science.

I always found humanity originating on a planet other than Earth to be totally stupid. If we didn't come from Earth, then we wouldn't be genetically related to everything else on the planet. I like SG-1, but the humans aren't from Earth concept is just downright stupid. I get that the writers were trying to give our species an origin, but... no... it's just stupid.

I agree with you about it being stupid. The idea was based on the kind of pseudo-science popularised by Erich von Däniken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_D%C3%A4niken

Though the episodes about the Dakara device were brilliantly written episodes, the idea that this big thing could seed an entire galaxy with life is just dumb. It's the machine version of God? What? How does it seed life upon the galaxy? No explanations, we're just supposed to roll with it. I'd rather think about it, ask questions, and then roll my eyes upon how none of this makes any sense. Good stories, bad science. I hate bad science!

You never get real explanations for things in Stargate - it's just vague technobabble which sounds good as long as you switch your brain off.

Genetic memory exists in relation to the Goa'uld, but we've never seen it depicted with any other species. If humans have genetic memory, why is it passed on to a clone, but not to an offspring, eh?

There's a kind of urban myth about cellular memory. Here's a very good article about it on The Skeptic's Dictionary website.

http://www.skepdic.com/cellular.html

One pseudo-scientific explanation for clones inheriting memory could be based on this real world idea by this real world person.

Dr. Candace Pert, a professor in the department of physiology and biophysics at Georgetown University, believes "the mind is not just in the brain, but also exists throughout the body." Dr. Pert is an expert in peptide pharmacology. "The mind and body communicate with each other through chemicals known as peptides," she claims. "These peptides are found in the brain as well as in the stomach, muscles and all of our major organs. I believe that memory can be accessed anywhere in the peptide/receptor network

The Stargate writers wouldn't use the following idea, however, because it requires a belief in life after death.

James Van Praagh, on the other hand, is quoted by Claire Sylvia as saying: "Donated organs often come from young people who were killed in car or motorcycle accidents, and who died quickly. Because their spirits often feel they haven't completed their time on earth, they sometimes attach themselves to another person. There may be things that your donor hadn't completed in the physical world, which his spirit still wanted to experience."* James claims to get his information from the spirit world. Unfortunately, we have no way of validating his claims.

As it's implied but not actually stated that death is the end for unascended beings, the writers wouldn't reveal that the original Beckett's spirit has attached itself to the clone.

If we're forgetting real world science, then why bother making any attempts at all at making the show realistic? I thought Stargate was suppose to be science-fiction, not fantasy.

Science fiction is a broad umbrella term for a wide range of approaches. 'Hard science fiction' is just one category amongst many. I'd class Stargate as 'science fantasy' -

http://www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/f...ce-fantasy.php

A definition, offered by Rod Serling, is that science fiction makes the implausible possible, while science fantasy makes the impossible plausible. The meaning is that science fiction describes unlikely things that could possibly take place in the real world under certain conditions, while science fantasy gives a veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances

[escyos]

considering that the Wraith clone themselves, I doubt that they start with blank slates and have to teach them everything. Michael would have known this and obviously had a way to replicate his memory from a sample of DNA, he might have taken hair, blood, bone matter, brain matter, skin cells, sperm.

Maybe he momentarily fed on Beckett and managed to retain something from him.

[Skie]

considering that the Wraith clone themselves, I doubt that they start with blank slates and have to teach them everything.

I'm going with the knowledge of SOW. The wraith cloned only the warriors and they are apparently born as already adults, they probably mature in those cocoons. So you don't need to clone their memories.

Michael would have known this and obviously had a way to replicate his memory from a sample of DNA, he might have taken hair, blood, bone matter, brain matter, skin cells, sperm.
Maybe he momentarily fed on Beckett and managed to retain something from him.

NO, there is no memory in our DNA. And how would he give it back to Beckett, by reversing the feeding? And wouldn't have Beckett mentioned that and looked older? They only can give you back your years not transferring some memories into you.

Beckett was a cool character but they totally screwed up with this cloning story. Should have left him dead and not used some week cloning excuse. Similar week as I found the explanation of outnumbering the ancient thanks to cloning. They are part insect, so rapid growth of the population by natural means of fast reproduction isn't far fetched.

[escyos]

I'm going with the knowledge of SOW. The wraith cloned only the warriors and they are apparently born as already adults, they probably mature in those cocoons. So you don't need to clone their memories.

NO, there is no memory in our DNA. And how would he give it back to Beckett, by reversing the feeding? And wouldn't have Beckett mentioned that and looked older? They only can give you back your years not transferring some memories into you.

Heres an explanation: In the Stargate universe memory is stored in DNA, simple as that.

[Skie]

Heres an explanation: In the Stargate universe memory is stored in DNA, simple as that.

In which species? We are talking about humans and it is a fact that there is no memory storage in our DNA. If Michael hadn't cloned Beckett but another species which in turn had this DNA storage (like those fish-whales in Atlantis) I could take it. But you just can't simply twist a fact to serve your plot in lack of a good explanation. That's just plain bad writing.

Or you're not taking that seriously either?

[escyos]

In which species? We are talking about humans and it is a fact that there is no memory storage in our DNA. If Michael hadn't cloned Beckett but another species which in turn had this DNA storage (like those fish-whales in Atlantis) I could take it. But you just can't simply twist a fact to serve your plot in lack of a good explanation. That's just plain bad writing.

Or you're not taking that seriously either?

like I said its how its done in the Stargate universe, not in our own. You either buy it or you just leave it alone.