How was Carson Beckett cloned? (spoilers for "Sunday" & "The Kindred")

[ciannwn]

In which species? We are talking about humans and it is a fact that there is no memory storage in our DNA. If Michael hadn't cloned Beckett but another species which in turn had this DNA storage (like those fish-whales in Atlantis) I could take it. But you just can't simply twist a fact to serve your plot in lack of a good explanation. That's just plain bad writing.

See Cellular Memory in this earlier post of mine.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post12418157

[Skie]

Dr. Candace Pert, a professor in the department of physiology and biophysics at Georgetown University, believes "the mind is not just in the brain, but also exists throughout the body." Dr. Pert is an expert in peptide pharmacology. "The mind and body communicate with each other through chemicals known as peptides," she claims. "These peptides are found in the brain as well as in the stomach, muscles and all of our major organs. I believe that memory can be accessed anywhere in the peptide/receptor network

No, you got that wrong. This is about having some kind of a second brain in the stomach: "The enteric nervous system has been described as a "second brain". There are several reasons for this. The enteric nervous system can operate autonomously. It normally communicates with the central nervous system through the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems."
It is NOT about having memory stored in your DNA. It is about the stomach having neurons like the brain and peptides which serve as neurotransmitters. Peptides are NOT DNA. It simply states that our stomach seems to have some kind of memory it can access like our brain does. In your qoute there is no word about the DNA because it has nothing to do with DNA.

[Skie]

like I said its how its done in the Stargate universe, not in our own. You either buy it or you just leave it alone.

I clearly don't buy it.
I have no problems with new stuff if they get a decent explanation or in excuse of a new species. For examples like the wraith regenerating 'cause they have no inhibitory proteins. Well, who knows what is out there. But if you just ignore plain facts that is nothing else but bad writing. The Stargate Universe copies the laws of our universe to explain things. If you go down this rode than stick to it and do not twist laws in order to cover bad writing.

[ciannwn]

No, you got that wrong. This is about having some kind of a second brain in the stomach:

I also said the following in that post -

One pseudo-scientific explanation for clones inheriting memory could be based on this real world idea by this real world person.

TPTB could have cobbled together some medical technobabble which included the words peptides and neurotransmitters etc. The idea behind it could have been that the clone had an exact copy of the original's peptides which included memories.

From an earlier post of yours -

But you just can't simply twist a fact to serve your plot in lack of a good explanation.

The Stargate writers often did this.

[Skie]

TPTB could have cobbled together some medical technobabble which included the words peptides and neurotransmitters etc. The idea behind it could have been that the clone had an exact copy of the original's peptides which included memories.

Yes, from one single cell. Michael really needed to choose this cell carefully and must have encouraged those nice little peptides to spread over the whole brain. Not to mention with no required equipment.
As I said I don't mind new stuff and ideas, if it gets a decent explanation. But this Beckett-clone really gives one a headache. It would have been much more interesting and realistic, if this clone had no memories of the old Beckett. But as the writers were responding to the outcry of the audience ...

The Stargate writers often did this.

Unfortunately very much so, which was the downfall of SGA, especially S4-5.

[ciannwn]

Yes, from one single cell. Michael really needed to choose this cell carefully and must have encouraged those nice little peptides to spread over the whole brain. Not to mention with no required equipment.

He somehow managed to take a tissue or whatever sample from the original Beckett on the 'Misbegotten' planet and then build a sophisticated lab to grow a clone after he'd fled the rescuing hiveship. I'm sure he must have picked up a piece of equipment to encourage peptide spread somewhere in the Pegasus galaxy.

As I said I don't mind new stuff and ideas, if it gets a decent explanation. But this Beckett-clone really gives one a headache. It would have been much more interesting and realistic, if this clone had no memories of the old Beckett. But as the writers were responding to the outcry of the audience ...

You mean as realistic as watching the retrovirus turn a Wraith into a human in a few minutes?

[Joachim]

Memories exist within the brain: carson was copied, he was replicated; he was "frozen" from a specific moment. If he was able to extract every genetic detail about Carson from that moment, then it only makes sense that memories would have come along with it. The issue comes not from him possessing the memories, but from the idea of being able to extract the entirety of his genetic material from a single cell.

[Skie]

Memories exist within the brain: carson was copied, he was replicated; he was "frozen" from a specific moment. If he was able to extract every genetic detail about Carson from that moment, then it only makes sense that memories would have come along with it. The issue comes not from him possessing the memories, but from the idea of being able to extract the entirety of his genetic material from a single cell.

No, the issue comes from having Carson possess the memories! We know how cloning works and that it is possible to clone an organism from a single cell. But as said before, there is no possible way how Michael could have copied Carson's memory, neither technically nor equipment wise.

[Skie]

He somehow managed to take a tissue or whatever sample from the original Beckett on the 'Misbegotten' planet and then build a sophisticated lab to grow a clone after he'd fled the rescuing hiveship. I'm sure he must have picked up a piece of equipment to encourage peptide spread somewhere in the Pegasus galaxy.

I always wondered how he managed to get his hands on all those resources to achieve his plans. Maybe he met our SEER once and in great foresight, set up nice little outposts throughout the PG. Not to mention his little escape from this hive ship, he probably sacrificed all the other humanized wraiths from this planet in MISBEGOTTEN. That's why we don't see them anymore.

You mean as realistic as watching the retrovirus turn a Wraith into a human in a few minutes?

Yup, especially without missing some crucial body parts after stripping off half the genome. To be fair, they said 10 hours in NML.

[ciannwn]

No, the issue comes from having Carson possess the memories! We know how cloning works and that it is possible to clone an organism from a single cell.But as said before, there is no possible way how Michael could have copied Carson's memory, neither technically nor equipment wise.

That only applies to our real world. Stargate humans aren't real life humans, though. They are second generation and the creations of original humans who evolved in another galaxy. If synaptic interaction in their brains is dramatically increased they can develop super powers like telekinesis, telepathy and miraculous healing. (McKay in The Tao Of Rodney). Some of them also possess the ATA gene which doesn't exist in the real world.

As for real world cloning, the result is an embryo which has to be implanted in a host mother until it's ready to be born as a baby of the species. Carson Beckett was cloned as an adult, though - whatever process Michael used was nothing like real life. The end result is a member of a fictional version of the human species being cloned by a a fictional human/alien bug hybrid using a fictional process in another galaxy.

[ciannwn]

I always wondered how he managed to get his hands on all those resources to achieve his plans. Maybe he met our SEER once and in great foresight, set up nice little outposts throughout the PG.

And he then let the Seer live in case he was useful again.

Not to mention his little escape from this hive ship, he probably sacrificed all the other humanized wraiths from this planet in MISBEGOTTEN. That's why we don't see them anymore.

It depends on why the members of the rescuing hive turned on him. Maybe one of the other rescued Wraith told them that Michael thought turning other Wraith into humans to solve the food shortage was a good idea.

To be fair, they said 10 hours in NML.

OK - I'll be fair.

[Skie]

That only applies to our real world. Stargate humans aren't real life humans, though. They are second generation and the creations of original humans who evolved in another galaxy. If synaptic interaction in their brains is dramatically increased they can develop super powers like telekinesis, telepathy and miraculous healing. (McKay in The Tao Of Rodney). Some of them also possess the ATA gene which doesn't exist in the real world.

But it can be explained by vastly accelerated genetic evolution. The point is, we don't know where evolution will take us. But we certainly know that Michael had no equipment to copy Becketts memory, he could only take the DNA and DNA stores no memory. So as I said before:

The Stargate Universe copies the laws of our universe to explain things. If you go down this rode than stick to it and do not twist laws in order to cover bad writing.

As for real world cloning, the result is an embryo which has to be implanted in a host mother until it's ready to be born as a baby of the species. Carson Beckett was cloned as an adult, though - whatever process Michael used was nothing like real life. The end result is a member of a fictional version of the human species being cloned by a a fictional human/alien bug hybrid using a fictional process in another galaxy.

Beckett being an adult could be explained how the wraith warriors are born, namely also as adults. So they probably have a special enzyme for growth and Michael could have used that. The other thing why having Becketts memory doesn't work: If the wraith really could do that, why bother with interrogation. All they need to do is copy the memory of the victim and voilà. And again the equipment issue. So again, never works for me.

It depends on why the members of the rescuing hive turned on him. Maybe one of the other rescued Wraith told them that Michael thought turning other Wraith into humans to solve the food shortage was a good idea.

But there were about 30 of them. Michael is Super-Michael for being the only one to escape?

[escyos]

You really seem to be stuck on this idea. Michael had a way to clone his memory, it happened so there MUST be a way.

[ciannwn]

But it can be explained by vastly accelerated genetic evolution. The point is, we don't know where evolution will take us.

Is there any real, scientific proof for telepathy and telekinesis etc? They're standard science fiction ingredients now but that doesn't automatically mean these abilities exist in real life. If they don't, no amount of genetic evolution will make the scientifically impossible possible.

But there were about 30 of them. Michael is Super-Michael for being the only one to escape?

The rescuing hive members mightn't have turned on the other reverted Wraith if the real objection to Michael was his idea for solving the food shortage problem.

[Skie]

You really seem to be stuck on this idea. Michael had a way to clone his memory, it happened so there MUST be a way.

Yes, I am. It happened so because the writer decided so, that's not an explanation that's a plot hole. The writers give McKay ample time to explain things, so why not that? Because they have no clue either as it was not intended. They brought back Beckett 'cause the audience was so pissed they killed him.