Torchwood Episode Discussion (Spoilers for all eps aired in the UK)

[BruTak]

If I might be permitted a slight digression...

The famous scene in Raiders to which I referred earlier came about totally by accident.

The script called for a complicated sword vs. whip duel, however on the day of filming Harrison Ford was too ill to do anything strenuous due to some bad food a day or so previously.

He's alleged to have taken one look at the schooting schedule, stomped over to Steven Spielberg and said words to the effect of "I can't do this! Can't I just take out my gun and shoot the f****r?"

And thus was a classic movie moment born...

[Flyboy]

If I might be permitted a slight digression...

The famous scene in Raiders to which I referred earlier came about totally by accident.

The script called for a complicated sword vs. whip duel, however on the day of filming Harrison Ford was too ill to do anything strenuous due to some bad food a day or so previously.

He's alleged to have taken one look at the schooting schedule, stomped over to Steven Spielberg and said words to the effect of "I can't do this! Can't I just take out my gun and shoot the f****r?"

And thus was a classic movie moment born...

I heard he was dying for the toilet so just adlibbed it.

[Pitry]

What?... What?.... WHAT?!

(Exit Wounds spoilers, obviuosly)

Spoiler:

I enjoyed Captain John here a lot more than I did in KKBB. I liked the spin on his not-eactly-being-the-psychopath-we-were-led-to-believe.
As much as I hated the Grey storyline and the whole horrible Jack flashbacks, I like that they did something that's rare in SF - Grey wasn't brainwashed, wasn't reprogrammed or whatever, he's simply become a psychopath because of his experiences. I still wonder whether it was the Daleks who did this to him...

Erm. I thought I could give some decent cpmments before resorting to it but I cant. WHY TOSH AND OWEN WHY!
Sob.

Hoesntly, with Jack, these two are my favourite Torchwood characters - whcih is quite a feat, considering Owen was my least favuorite last year. But this series they gave him so much depth and so much uniqueness, and together with the actor being one of the damn best actors I've seen ni a while - as could very well be seen in the scene when Owen realises he's going to die - is incredible.
And Tosh. Ah, Tosh. A true unique chjaracter in science fiction, because she's not the regular heroic etc, but in fact a very realistic, introverted girl with the frustration of being misunderstood so to speak - like hse says in Adam, why couldn't anyone see her for the unique person she really was and instead just pass her by without another thought.
I don't think I ever sympathised with a science fiction character as much as I did with Tosh.
So, sob. Here's to you, two brilliant characters, sacrificed on the altar of giving a sdense of danger and realism to the show. As your death was done so well I can't really begrudge Chibnall - try as I might - but hopefully it won't be in vain adn will have as much effect on Torchwood as Doctor Who showed it can.
I'm also gettign the feelnig we're gonna get James Marsters as a regular - if the ator is willing to move to Cardiff of course - after this finale. I half expected Jakc to offer him the spot.... huh.

ON thing I'm unhappy with, the idea of Jack being buried alive for 2000 years. I mean, seriuosly.
Hasn't the man gone through enough?!?!
So now he's older than the Doctor, died about a million times, sorry they're over doing it. I mean, if we consider Gery's psychological problems - Jack has jsut spent a year seeing the world going to oblivion by the Master and being tortured and kiled again adn again and now he's spent 2 millenia in the ground. Gotta mess with anyone's head.

[Flyboy]

Spoiler:

I dunno... I don't think Jack lived all that time... I think he only came too once he was unearthed. Kinda like Claire in Heroes, she can't come back to life until the knife/glass/etc is removed from her.... Jack had no air and couldnt live again till he was dug up. I think grey got it wrong...

[Willow'sCat]

Spoiler:

ONE thing I'm unhappy with, the idea of Jack being buried alive for 2000 years. I mean, seriuosly.
Hasn't the man gone through enough?!?!
So now he's older than the Doctor, died about a million times, sorry they're over doing it.

I kind of agree but then in order to tell his story you are going to have deaths, his deaths as part of that but agreed it is probably a good thing to give it a rest now. They won't of course why have such a character if you can't put him in situations where he will die... Utopia is a prime example. Actually Utopia is a good example of how it can work so maybe they should only have him dying when no one else can do the job.

Also with Jack and The Doctor I think given that we know

Spoiler:

or we are pretty sure we know Jack is The face of Boa I think Jack got more then just on-going life from the TARDIS/Rose I think he has a strength within that has yet to be realised... at least I like to think he does 'cause I can't imagine anyone being as wise and serene as The face of Boa but insane with it! I certainly can't imagine Jack as a mere human living through being buried alive and coming out sane. People can go nuts with only a few months of solitary confinement so yeah he would be insane by now. But if he really is The face of Boa...

I just think it throws up some wonderful possibilities.

Also Jack keeps secrets still and there is his lost memories I think all this adds up to a very interesting and unique character. Jack is more then just human, more then just a guy who can't die I think the TARDIS knows this hence trying to shake him off but I also think The Doctor probably does realise by now that Jack is one person he will be linked to for some time.

Jack is an impossible thing!

[BruTak]

I heard he was dying for the toilet so just adlibbed it.

Pretty much the same thing, yeah.

[Madeleine]

Spoiler:

I dunno... I don't think Jack lived all that time... I think he only came too once he was unearthed. Kinda like Claire in Heroes, she can't come back to life until the knife/glass/etc is removed from her.... Jack had no air and couldnt live again till he was dug up. I think grey got it wrong...

I like that explanation, it's the only one that explains why Jack wasn't bonkers by the time they got to him.

[Dusk]

I...haven't cried that much for a long time. As a guy, it's hard to admit I cried at all, but oh yes I did, oh did I ever. Mostly for the loss of Tosh, I had just grown so fond of her, it hurt me so. And for Owen to be plucked from death only to go down again, this time forever. All I know is, if I were working with Torchwood and have had this happen it would take me some 'serious' time to get over it.

Also, I love my own family so, but if I ever had someone like Grey come back to do all those things, you can bet the world I wouldn't hesitate to kill them on the spot. It doesn't matter that he has been left that way because of the torture and psychological trauma he received, because like an animal with a terminal and excruciating injury, we are best to deliver death as swift and focussed as possible.

I'm so happy Tosh and Owen mentioned the space pig incident from Doctor Who's "Aliens in London". It leaves me with great relief that it has been tied up.

I'm disturbed by the lack of a cliff-hanger. And the lack of media release about a possible third season.

To be frank, I think killing off characters because it's hard to write for them anymore is a cowardly and shameful way to shake up the cast. If you were a good writer, you would inject a life and energy within stale characters to revive and rejuvenate them. But this, this is reprehensible!

Now I'm not even sure if I want to see more Torchwood, for me the show has become fractured and painful.

Gah!!!! Where's the tissue box?

[Flyboy]

Personally I commend the decision to kill off characters in this way. TV is about generating emotion and telling a good story... look at how it's effected us... this is perfect television.

[Mr Prophet]

Personally I commend the decision to kill off characters in this way. TV is about generating emotion and telling a good story... look at how it's effected us... this is perfect television.

Every time someone demands 'Why kill off X?' I think the answer is always: 'That's why.' Why kill the characters you care about? Because you care.

[Flyboy]

Every time someone demands 'Why kill off X?' I think the answer is always: 'That's why.' Why kill the characters you care about? Because you care.

EXACTLY!

[Dusk]

Hey, I'm not questioning it's efficacy as a plot device, I'm just saying it's a cheap and nasty way of getting a reaction out of us! If you play this card too many times then it makes a whore of a show and it's characters. Two characters died, not one character dead and one leaving, not two characters leaving, not one character falling to recurring and another slipped into a spinoff... they just up and said, "what the hell, let's take 'em both down!"

Hey, I'll get over it eventually, I just get unnerved by drastic cast alterations so early into a series, or in the case of SGA, so frequently.

[Pitry]

Every time someone demands 'Why kill off X?' I think the answer is always: 'That's why.' Why kill the characters you care about? Because you care.

I completely agree. Which is why I don't begrudge them the killing of these characters - although I must admit, a part of the reason I'm okay with it is because that even though I like Owen and Tosh better than Gwen and Ianto, Gwen and Ianto have enough substance in them, it's not like the SGA situation where god characters were killed and 2D characters were left to fill in the void.

I'm just gonna miss them

As for Jack's deaths - yeah. It does seem overboard that they would ackwnoledge what the aliens did to Grey and how bad it hit him and at the same time allow Jack 2000 years of being buried alive. So I'm going for the permanent dead thing til they dug him up myself. Also, I admit, I also have a problem concerning the Doctor/ Jack relationship - having Jack 2000 years older and with so much time to think over things - i.e what the Doctor has endured in LotTL only on a much much bigger scale - will kind of turn their relationship upside down, making Jack the older and wiser and the Doctor as the frolicking youngster. I can accept it with the Face of Boe, but that's a much much much older Jack.... I jsut think that's one thing they didn't think through thoroughly.

[Madeleine]

Hey, I'm not questioning it's efficacy as a plot device, I'm just saying it's a cheap and nasty way of getting a reaction out of us! If you play this card too many times then it makes a whore of a show and it's characters. Two characters died, not one character dead and one leaving, not two characters leaving, not one character falling to recurring and another slipped into a spinoff... they just up and said, "what the hell, let's take 'em both down!"

Hey, I'll get over it eventually, I just get unnerved by drastic cast alterations so early into a series, or in the case of SGA, so frequently.

I disagree; I think Cheap is to put characters in peril again and again and never have any of them die because they're in the credits and people in the credits can't die. Cheap is to only ever 'kill' someone if you know full well you're going to bring them back. But if you also kill people permanently, then killing occasional people just temporarily is no longer cheap but a way of adding more suspense where needed

Torchwood is supposed to be 'adult' - I expect an adult show to have real danger in it, and no soft-reset. Never killing main characters is the best way to remove all sense of danger. Why should I care about a character in peril if I know there's no peril? Why should I think a person herioc for risking her life if I've started to believe she's invulnerable?

I think the best deaths are those where I like the character. I'm not the sort who'd have enjoyed watching Owen die last year cos I loathed him; last year for Owen-the-unlikeable to die would have been boring, been meh, been trivial like a redshirt death. (spoilers for s2 finale)

Spoiler:

This year, when Burn Gorman has been the best actor in the show and Owen has been revealed as a once-decent chap who lost his way a few years back and has gradually refound it in recent months, Owen's death MATTERED. I wept, but my goodness it was worthwhile.

Like the death of the adorable Grodin in Atlantis s1, and the sublime Tara in Buffy, I thought it great that Tosh, my second favourite character, was one to die. Those last scenes, including the easter egg, are probably the scenes of Mori's career so far.

There's something to be said for ending on a high note. Owen and Tosh were both in the ascendant throughout s2, perhaps the whole point of it was so that they'd die at their most wonderful. If they were real it would be a tragedy; because they are pretend people, it's rather beautiful.

Anyway, hopefully (and I mean, I hope the rumours I've heard are false) we'll get a brand new character or two to replace them, with their own new possibilities for developement.

[Reefgirl]

Hey, I'm not questioning it's efficacy as a plot device, I'm just saying it's a cheap and nasty way of getting a reaction out of us! If you play this card too many times then it makes a whore of a show and it's characters. Two characters died, not one character dead and one leaving, not two characters leaving, not one character falling to recurring and another slipped into a spinoff... they just up and said, "what the hell, let's take 'em both down!"

Hey, I'll get over it eventually, I just get unnerved by drastic cast alterations so early into a series, or in the case of SGA, so frequently.

Who says it's a plot device or the writers did it for the sheer hell of it, I know that's what we've come to expect of the Atlantis writers but it could be the fact that the actors have had other offers I know Burn Gorman has been busy on other projects so maybe he's had better offers and Naoko Mori has talked about working in American and Theater in Japan, so that could be your answer, I know it's always easy to blame the writers for ratings grabbing when someone dies but it could be something as down to Earth as the actor's wanting out