The Song Remains the Same (513)

[LtColCarter]

Wow...I finally got to watch SPN. Excellent episode! It was really good seend the young John & Mary again. But its too bad that John & Marry had their minds scrubbed. But I guess its for the best.

[iolanda]

One interesting thing is that it looks like Dean actually can say YES without being a vegetable later. So where will this lead to in the end?
Option 1 is a great "told you so" By Michael and Co should the boys say YES, but option 2 is the great "told you so" by everyone who is on team Free Will.

I hope they come up with something nobody did expect!

[LoneStar1836]

I don't get it. Does dropout refer to Dean not finishing school? Or him leaving hell? And what is with the bucks?

Him dropping out of school is the most obvious reference, imo.

And as far as bucks, it's slang for money. Saying "six bucks to your name" generally refers to how much money you have in your pocket/how much you own. Dean does own the Impala so he literally does have more than six bucks to his name (even though that's probably how much he had in his wallet at the time), but they don't really have anything else they can claim as their own other than the clothes on their backs.

ETA: You're welcome.

One interesting thing is that it looks like Dean actually can say YES without being a vegetable later. So where will this lead to in the end?

I'm wondering if that was a hint as to how things will play out or just something to throw us off. Not turning Dean into a veggie leaves that option open more now than ever, even though I assumed if it did happen, God would swoop in and fix him up.

[the fifth man]

Your lucky your family likes the same stuff you do.

My wife is pretty receptive. We are pretty similar people. As for my Dad, I think he just tolerates a lot of stuff. He does enjoy more than he will ever admit though.

[starg8fans]

<snip>

One thing that did bug me in this episode (aside from the pre-determined life stuff), is the Angels; I was under the impression that they were Omnipotent, and that they existed outside of time (or at the very least, lived it differently). Anna went back in time, as did Castiel, wouldn't their real selfs have thought "hang on, what I am doing there" and come along to investigate?

I think Anna's younger than Dean, so she would not have fallen yet, thus would not have been on earth. Same goes for Castiel, at some point (I think it was Are you there, God from the beginning of S4 - he said to Dean that 'we are walking the earth for the first time in two thousand years'. Which begs the question what Uriel is doing there? And what was with the youthful looks? Was this supposed to be a younger version of his vessel? For some reason I figured that the body would remain unchanged as long as it was inhabited by an Angel, that it's sort of in limbo. I mean, Cas has been exactly the same since we first saw him. Or can Uriel slip in and out of his meatsuit at will without damaging it?

[iolanda]

It looks like the right vessel can be worn without being damaged, even by an archangel.

Uriel says something like "we are not supposed to be down here". I understood it as if Uriel was wearing the younger version of the meatsuit we saw in S4, leaving it afterwards (so the guy aged) and get back into him at the time Castiel rescued Dean from hell. That would explain the change in ages. We saw that Castiel was able to get out of Jimmy Novaks body, and Jimmy was still OK.

[Aerilon]

One interesting thing is that it looks like Dean actually can say YES without being a vegetable later. So where will this lead to in the end?

I'm wondering if that was a hint as to how things will play out or just something to throw us off. Not turning Dean into a veggie leaves that option open more now than ever, even though I assumed if it did happen, God would swoop in and fix him up.

Well, that would solve the problem of Dean's body, but not Sam's, unless Lucifer offers Sam the same deal, but then one of them has to die... unless God intervenes, and stops them from fighting.

I hope they come up with something nobody did expect!

I'm sure they will, they've not dissapointed yet.

I think Anna's younger than Dean, so she would not have fallen yet, thus would not have been on earth. Same goes for Castiel, at some point (I think it was Are you there, God from the beginning of S4 - he said to Dean that 'we are walking the earth for the first time in two thousand years'. Which begs the question what Uriel is doing there? And what was with the youthful looks? Was this supposed to be a younger version of his vessel?

I'll give you the point on Anna, but even Castiel (being an Angel); I'd have thought he'd be aware of his future-self being where he shouldn't.

Also, if Angels can jump through time, why don't they all jump to the end to see what happened?

It looks like the right vessel can be worn without being damaged, even by an archangel.

I think 'true' vessels yes, as such, Sam and Dean. Current Lucifer (can't remember the vessels name) isn't doing so well.

Also, on a more general note, I think the free will vs divine plan is one of the most interesting topics this season, and as such, I've been thinking about it a fair bit. I believe I had a resonable theory. That being, people do have free will, but some events are planned out, depending on various actions taken.

IE: The minute Dean broke the first seal, it was his destiny to become the vessel for Michael, and Sam's for Lucifer. It would be like in Doctor Who (if anyone watches that) where most things in time are in flux, and can be changed, but some things are 'time-locked' and as such, will always happen, nomatter what.

I find it hard to believe that free will doesn't exist, otherwise why would Azazel not have gone straight to Sam, save wasting time with all them other children? Surely Lucifer would know God's great plan by now, and as such, wouldn't have sent Azazel on a wild goose chase.

Then there is the option that Michael was lying through his teeth, in a desperate attempt for control of Dean's body.

[LtColCarter]

Well, that would solve the problem of Dean's body, but not Sam's, unless Lucifer offers Sam the same deal, but then one of them has to die... unless God intervenes, and stops them from fighting.

I'm sure they will, they've not dissapointed yet.

I'll give you the point on Anna, but even Castiel (being an Angel); I'd have thought he'd be aware of his future-self being where he shouldn't.

Also, if Angels can jump through time, why don't they all jump to the end to see what happened?

I think 'true' vessels yes, as such, Sam and Dean. Current Lucifer (can't remember the vessels name) isn't doing so well.

Also, on a more general note, I think the free will vs divine plan is one of the most interesting topics this season, and as such, I've been thinking about it a fair bit. I believe I had a resonable theory. That being, people do have free will, but some events are planned out, depending on various actions taken.

IE: The minute Dean broke the first seal, it was his destiny to become the vessel for Michael, and Sam's for Lucifer. It would be like in Doctor Who (if anyone watches that) where most things in time are in flux, and can be changed, but some things are 'time-locked' and as such, will always happen, nomatter what.

I find it hard to believe that free will doesn't exist, otherwise why would Azazel not have gone straight to Sam, save wasting time with all them other children? Surely Lucifer would know God's great plan by now, and as such, wouldn't have sent Azazel on a wild goose chase.

Then there is the option that Michael was lying through his teeth, in a desperate attempt for control of Dean's body.

I agree...and leads to some deep thinking...

[Crichiel]

Should be able to keep this a little shorter, you guys have covered a lot already!

First of all, this episode was a lot better the second time. As I've said before, I am always a little wary of AU episodes. I don't like 'reset' buttons as a whole. But this one was well done because you get the honest and true reactions of how John and Mary would respond if they knew all about the heavenly plan (as opposed to WIAWSNB where it wasn't REALLY Mary, so who knows how accurate a portrayal that was). But if they HAD kept their memories, it would have seriously screwed up 4 1/2 years of plot development! So you kinda had to have the memory scrub. Although, I assume Michael didn't scrub Mary's memories of her encounter with Dean Van Halen in 1973, so she SHOULD have still had THAT warning about May 2, 1983 in her mind!

Ok, Anna. Wow! Mean. I get that she was ticked off at being banished, but in the season 4, she was portrayed as kind of the 'Do the Right Thing Nazi', and one who doesn't overlook the individuals. But this was a bit of a nasty change. I'm not sure I completely buy JUST how Dark Side she went, but I'll let it go for the sake of story. On the plus side, her hair is now a little more human shade of red!

I always catch weird little things : Dean waking up lying across the bed fully dressed, sort of implies to me that he is still having trouble sleeping, staying up (and possibly drinking) until he is simply too tired and passes out on the bed.

I like that they sent Castiel to deal with Anna. It shows 1) that Dean is being properly cautious, and 2) how much they have put their trust in Cas.

Castiel didn't have a lot to do in this one, but I liked his attitude a lot. I like that he is again a competant companion. That he is willing to face down Anna, that even with limited powers he does succeed in getting them back in time, and that his clueless humour is more like that of last season. Specifically when Dean says, "You're like a Delorean without enough Plutonium?" and he responds, "I don't understand that reference." To the viewer it's funny, but Cas doesn't play the line for a joke because it is a serious situation. He sounds genuinely annoyed that Dean is slowing things down by confusing him.

Sam's reaction to seeing his parents was wonderful. It was so emotional. Much more so than Dean's was when he first saw them (Although Dean has his emotional moments in both episodes with Mary. More on that in a second).

"Wow. Awkward family road trip." I love this sequence in the car. It was very funny to see Sam and Dean in the back seat with their parents bickering in the front. And John threatening them like little kids. It reminded me a lot of the scene with Ellen in No Exit. For some reason, I always like when Sam and Dean have those bits where they act like little kids. You feel like, with Dean having to grow up so soon, they didn't get many of those 'childhood moments', like acting up on a road trip.

The talk between John and Sam was great. While it didn't offer any real revelations (we've known for a while that John was just doing the best he could, and that Sam has been coming around to his way of thinking), but it DID give Sam some true closure, finally being able to say it to his dad's face...even if John didn't know he was doing so!

Mary and Dean. I love Mary and Dean's relationship. I could watch the two of them forever. Dean describing his childhood with her was heartbreaking. It's always been tough trying to figure out who had it worse: Sam who never got a chance to know his mother at all, or Dean who has the memories so that he really knows what they missed out on. Sad sad sad.

As someone else said, it was cool how eager Dean and Sam both were to agree to never having been born in order to stop all the tragedy later. Very heroic.

Query: How exactly did Anna and Uriel erase the sigils and holy oil? That makes each of those weapons suddenly a whole lot less of a threat.

Here's another couple I could watch all day: Michael and Dean. Watching the episode on Thursday evening, I thought was good, but not amazing until Michael showed up (since then, subsequent viewings have made me 'up' my opinion of the episode as a whole, but this is still the best part of it for me). Dean's always been good at the verbal sparring. Matthew Cohen didn't have a lot to do for In the Beginning, so I didn't get a sense of him really as an actor in that, but here he shines. He portrayed a cooler Michael than I could have imagined. And just like Lucifer, his logic is hard to argue with. So bully for Dean in STILL sticking to his belief that they can avoid this.

My one question during this, though: I get that they are always trying to demonstrate the similarities to Dean/Michael and Sam/Lucifer, but if you are just going by the Bible, I am PRETTY sure Lucifer and Michael came into creation at the same time, how could Michael have "practically raised" Lucifer? Or are they using some other ancient text regarding angels for this one? Whatever, not really important anyway.

"Six degrees of Heaven Bacon" All right, I want to know who came up with that line. That was pretty darn clever!

As you all were discussing over the weekend, the whole thing about Michael being capable of not leaving Dean a drooling mess is interesting. That could seriously change things, once you take that jeopardy out of the equation. No, Lucifer might not do the same to Sam, but what if they could do something like have JUST Dean say yes, before Lucifer takes Sam's body? Or find some other way to make that advantage work for them?

"You think you know better than my Father?" True, Michael, that is a pretty arrogant assumption on Dean's part isn't it? Although who says Michael and Lucifer totally understand God's plan? (Man! I can't wait to see how all this plays out!!).

Last scene (I haven't checked, IS this post shorter than my usual ones, doesn't seem so now! ): "They all say we'll say 'yes'." It's so despairing how Sam says this. And how could he NOT be. When every person around you, and all scenarios that have played out show that this WILL happen. It's got to be so hard to keep having faith in what you are doing. Which makes Dean's response all the more impressive. He doesn't hesitate saying, "I know. It's getting annoying." After all this, Dean is still going to fight. With the whole world against them, he still believes Team Free Will can find a way out.

Of course, Sam has the last word and the best point: Why WOULD they say 'yes'? Well their dad did to save Mary. And, hmm, who do we know who has shown over and over again that he will make even a REALLY bad choice if it's to save his family? Dean.

[starg8fans]

It looks like the right vessel can be worn without being damaged, even by an archangel.

Uriel says something like "we are not supposed to be down here". I understood it as if Uriel was wearing the younger version of the meatsuit we saw in S4, leaving it afterwards (so the guy aged) and get back into him at the time Castiel rescued Dean from hell. That would explain the change in ages. We saw that Castiel was able to get out of Jimmy Novaks body, and Jimmy was still OK.

Right, I forgot about that. So I'll go with the assumption that angels weren't supposed to be walking the earth in those 2000 years, but Anna being Uriel's superior was able to summon him down there for her own purposes.

I'll give you the point on Anna, but even Castiel (being an Angel); I'd have thought he'd be aware of his future-self being where he shouldn't.

But Cas was god-knows-where at the time - how would he be aware what was happening on some random planet?

Also, if Angels can jump through time, why don't they all jump to the end to see what happened?

Good point. Unless they can only jump back and not forward. I guess God would make sure of that, because he seems like a guy who likes to play his cards close to his chest.

Also, on a more general note, I think the free will vs divine plan is one of the most interesting topics this season, and as such, I've been thinking about it a fair bit. I believe I had a resonable theory. That being, people do have free will, but some events are planned out, depending on various actions taken.

IE: The minute Dean broke the first seal, it was his destiny to become the vessel for Michael, and Sam's for Lucifer. It would be like in Doctor Who (if anyone watches that) where most things in time are in flux, and can be changed, but some things are 'time-locked' and as such, will always happen, nomatter what.

I agree, this is a very interesting topic. I've never seen Dr. Who but it seems to be the case here as well. Dean has already changed a few things he saw in The End - such as finding the Colt, and re-connecting with Sam - but Lucifer still claims that the two of them will end up in the garden, regardless of Dean's decisions. I guess we won't know who's right until the season finale.

I don't like 'reset' buttons as a whole. But this one was well done because you get the honest and true reactions of how John and Mary would respond if they knew all about the heavenly plan (as opposed to WIAWSNB where it wasn't REALLY Mary, so who knows how accurate a portrayal that was). But if they HAD kept their memories, it would have seriously screwed up 4 1/2 years of plot development! So you kinda had to have the memory scrub. Although, I assume Michael didn't scrub Mary's memories of her encounter with Dean Van Halen in 1973, so she SHOULD have still had THAT warning about May 2, 1983 in her mind!

Actually, I figured that Michael erased that memory as well. He wants the heavenly plan to proceed as planned, so he wouldn't want Mary to have any warning about that night.

I always catch weird little things : Dean waking up lying across the bed fully dressed, sort of implies to me that he is still having trouble sleeping, staying up (and possibly drinking) until he is simply too tired and passes out on the bed.

I didn't pick up on that, but it ties in with Dean told the doc in Sam, Interrupted about his sleeping and drinking habits.

Query: How exactly did Anna and Uriel erase the sigils and holy oil? That makes each of those weapons suddenly a whole lot less of a threat.

I was wondering about that as well. Could it be that they were able to erase them because the didn't really 'belong' in that time? Because they were 'imported' by somebody who wasn't supposed to be there, and were therefore somehow less 'real'?

As you all were discussing over the weekend, the whole thing about Michael being capable of not leaving Dean a drooling mess is interesting. That could seriously change things, once you take that jeopardy out of the equation. No, Lucifer might not do the same to Sam, but what if they could do something like have JUST Dean say yes, before Lucifer takes Sam's body? Or find some other way to make that advantage work for them?

You're right. The whole discussion has always been about both of them saying 'yes' for the cosmic battle. Shouldn't Michael and Lucifer try harder to get to their vessel first, in order to catch the other before he's ready?

"You think you know better than my Father?" True, Michael, that is a pretty arrogant assumption on Dean's part isn't it? Although who says Michael and Lucifer totally understand God's plan? (Man! I can't wait to see how all this plays out!!).

Same here. I'm pretty sure God's plan in the end will turn out to be different from anything that's been assumed so far.

Of course, Sam has the last word and the best point: Why WOULD they say 'yes'? Well their dad did to save Mary. And, hmm, who do we know who has shown over and over again that he will make even a REALLY bad choice if it's to save his family? Dean.

I thought he'd changed his act this season - in the first episode, he stood up to Zachariah, even though Sam was suffocating without lungs. Of course he may have been bluffing, but I think he realizes now that there's more at stake.

[Crichiel]

I thought he'd changed his act this season - in the first episode, he stood up to Zachariah, even though Sam was suffocating without lungs. Of course he may have been bluffing, but I think he realizes now that there's more at stake.

I'm not sure what to think about this. There was that moment in Sympathy for the Devil, but he also keeps insisting that he isn't going to kill Sam. And he is working so hard to avert any scenario that might lead to it.

And there was also the fact that when Sam asked him what he would do if he could save Mary, Dean didn't exactly jump up and say, "I'd do the right thing!" He had 'that' look on his face. And it may be my opinion only, but I think Dean has even MORE of a soft spot for Mary than he does for even Sam or John. I think he sees Sam and John as hunters, and accepts the inherent risks with that. But, even knowing Mary was a hunter, he just sees his his sweet, gentle, loving mom.

So, while earlier in the season, I would have said (and probably did on those episode threads), that Dean has learned his lesson, now I can't be 100% sure of that.

[LoneStar1836]

Well, that would solve the problem of Dean's body, but not Sam's, unless Lucifer offers Sam the same deal, but then one of them has to die... unless God intervenes, and stops them from fighting.

Which I think is one of the major possibilities to be considered.

But concerning Sam, so far no one has stated that the big battle has to only be between Sam and Dean serving as the vessels. If Dean decided to give in while Lucifer is still inhabiting that other guy, it would supposedly make him easier to fight...which Dean might consider in order to save Sam depending on future circumstances and what gets thrown their way.

Also, if Angels can jump through time, why don't they all jump to the end to see what happened?

I know they like to talk about all this being fated/predetermined as if there is only one set time line, but I'd like to assume that the future is fluid and it's not set in stone, even for the angels. So yeah they could jump to the future and see one possible out come, but would that be the correct one?

Like when Zack showed Dean the supposed future in "The End". Sure one can argue that might have been manipulated in order to try to convince Dean, but I think it was one of many actual possible futures.

Also, on a more general note, I think the free will vs divine plan is one of the most interesting topics this season, and as such, I've been thinking about it a fair bit. I believe I had a resonable theory. That being, people do have free will, but some events are planned out, depending on various actions taken.

IE: The minute Dean broke the first seal, it was his destiny to become the vessel for Michael, and Sam's for Lucifer. It would be like in Doctor Who (if anyone watches that) where most things in time are in flux, and can be changed, but some things are 'time-locked' and as such, will always happen, nomatter what.

I find it hard to believe that free will doesn't exist, otherwise why would Azazel not have gone straight to Sam, save wasting time with all them other children? Surely Lucifer would know God's great plan by now, and as such, wouldn't have sent Azazel on a wild goose chase.

I agree. I do think free will is apparent in the small stuff, but I would also like to think it is possible even for the bigger events...in the context of the world Supernatural has created. So in the context of Supernatural, I think that world will eventually have its Apocalypse like all the angles believe, it just won't be Dean and Sam who are involved in bringing it about. By the time all this is over, I think the time table will have been rest to the "original" time, and not this accelerated one that was forced because the angels got tired of waiting around.

The angels have helped to artificially create this current present in order to mess with the time table for the Apocalypse. So they could still follow concepts from Dr. Who that certain things are "time-locked"...as in the "original" time table for the Apocalypse.

So while the angels yammer on about fate, it was actually free will that brought about the current present, because instead of waiting around like they were supposed to, some of the major players decided to alter time and not wait around for fate. Sure a lot of this stuff has been fated for Sam and Dean, but it has been artificially created in the grander scheme. Or I think that's at least one possible way of looking at it.

[Heaven]

the way I understand it, they do already know the future, they even create human prophets
Lucifer told Sam he was going to say yes in 6 months in Detroit and he just let him go
Gabriel told them they knew from the moment God flipped on the lights on Earth that it will end
with Sam and Dean
maybe they can only see forward as far as Michael vs. Lucifer showdown?
I think what the angels mean when they want it to be over is that they don't have free will either
they are stuck with the destiny God made for them, same as the rest of creation

[LtColCarter]

the way I understand it, they do already know the future, they even create human prophets
Lucifer told Sam he was going to say yes in 6 months in Detroit and he just let him go
Gabriel told them they knew from the moment God flipped on the lights on Earth that it will end
with Sam and Dean
maybe they can only see forward as far as Michael vs. Lucifer showdown?
I think what the angels mean when they want it to be over is that they don't have free will either
they are stuck with the destiny God made for them, same as the rest of creation

Interesting theory. I guess we'll have to see how it pans out.

[marielabbott]

Query: How exactly did Anna and Uriel erase the sigils and holy oil? That makes each of those weapons suddenly a whole lot less of a threat.

Yeah, that bothered me too. I'd like to know how that was done.

When Michael was talking to Dean, he said something like he didn't want to kill Lucifer, but he would because "It was right to do so." That made me think of a scenario where the boys might say yes. What if Michael only has the power to kill Lucifer in his true vessel? Couldn't he have time traveled to the future in John's body and killed Lucifer/Nick if a vessel was all that was required? And what if Lucifer, for some reason, can only be killed while in his true vessel? And if the guys set some sort of trap...both were willing to never be born...I think they're both self-sacrificing enough to potentially say yes in such a situation.

Great episode! There was one other thing that kinda bothered me--when Castiel said Sam was his friend. My complaint is that we didn't see this friendship develop onscreen. That was the one thing I was really hoping to see this season. That relationship has been virtually ignored, imo. But I am glad that they are friends now, even though we didn't have the privilege to see how it developed.