Sympathy for the Devil (501)

[iolanda]

I've had a few days to think of this now and I read through the thread and people are making a big deal of Dean not sacrificing himself for Sam. That got me thinking of the last scene between Dean and Sam, how basically Dean doesn't trust Sam any more. Do you think possibly that's the reason he wouldn't sacrifice himself for Sam? In past seasons, Dean would have done it without thinking but after the events of last season, now he won't.

I think that he refused to sacrifice himself, because he is fed up with being a tool for the angels, especially Zachariah. I don't think that this was because he doesn't trust Sam any more. Dean already gave everything for Sam, his life, his soul, and now it's time for a different way, a way he chooses. And for this he was ready to sacrifice both of them.

[Andron]

So here's finally my little review

That's how you start a season!

The episode starts right where last season left of with Lucifer's spirit getting out. All the signs (the bright light and the deafening sound) really identify him as an angel (more to that later), so that confirms the lore of Lucifer getting kicked out of heaven by arcangel Michael (Lucifer Rising).
Sam and Dean get wisked away, not a second too late, by a mysterious power (God's first intervention or was it Michael?!) and brought onto a plane. This must have been a special thing for Dean who's mortally afraid of flying, especially when the plane went down!

The world seems already to go to hell with all the natural disasters and pandemics - sings of the Apocalyps?!

Love that they already brought back Chuck, our favourite prophet. He already got a little more involved by sending Becky (the Sam fangirl/ slash fan; very funny girl, hope to see her and fans like her again) to the brothers with his prophecy about the Michael Sword. Hope, that he won't be a stranger this season.
So Castiel exploded „Like a water balloon of chunky soup“, but got brought back by a mysterious power - God's second intervention or is God undercover in Castiel's vessel... (can't wait to to finally meet God, wonder who will play him)
Castiel also carved an "anokian sigil" into Dean's and Sam's ribs that will make them invisible to all angels, including Lucifer. So they won't always be stalk by Zach
Mischa Collins has been promoted to a full cast member, which is just great – the more Castiel the better.

I knew right when Bobby said to Sam that, when this is over he should loose his number, that it couldn't really be our Bobby. He would never turn his back on the boys. Something that bugged me was how in all the world it was possible for a demon to possess him, doesn't he have anti-possession tatoo or something like that. Normally, Bobby is the most prepared – I just don't think this could ever happen. That's the only thing I didn't like in this episode.

Now to Sam who spent the whole episode looking like a kicked puppy. He desperately wanted to be blamed for what he did, take his punishment, and get it over with. Dean wasn't going to play, and he didn't want to talk. Sam made the worst mistake any human has ever made, after all. He has a lot to make up for. I really hope that Dean will come to realize that to beat this whole thing he must learn to trust Sam again, even though it may seem not possible now.

What about Sam's powers?! Did he really loose them when they got rescued by the heavenly power? And he got no craving anymore for demon blood, which is a good side effect.

Dean is the vessel of Michael. I find it good twist that angels need the permission to inhabit a persons body, otherwise they wouldn't be better than their counterparts the demons (they are after all not that different in their behaviour apart from that). Dean really didn't want to be the angel's puppet so he wouldn't let Michael take over ("Life as an angel condom. That's real fun. I think I'll pass, thanks.") even if it meant giving up his own and his brothers life, as well as Bobby's ability to walk (hope he will recover). Earlier or later Dean may just have to give up his body to stop Lucifer if God doesn't intervene.
Liked that Dean has learned to get rid of angels from Castiel, may come in handy this season.

To Mark Pellegrino, he gave just an exceptional performance as Nick who wasn't at all fortunate in life. Having lost his wife and baby during a robbery and being now totally alone. So it's understandable that he blames God for his tortures life and is by this receptable to Lucifer's consolation. Lucifer said he doesn't lie. From what he said to Nick, it might even really be true. “I can't give you your family back. If I take your body, it won't be pleasant for you.” Of course, Lucifer could be the master of understatement.

Lots of set-up for the season. Dean and Sam together again, even though there are, understandably, trust issues. Bring on the rest of the season!

[P-90_177]

I knew right when Bobby said to Sam that, when this is over he should loose his number, that it couldn't really be our Bobby. He would never turn his back on the boys. Something that bugged me was how in all the world it was possible for a demon to possess him, doesn't he have anti-possession tatoo or something like that. Normally, Bobby is the most prepared – I just don't think this could ever happen. That's the only thing I didn't like in this episode.

He probably does have the tattoo. However most of the devil traps and other charms that require a circle , become useless as soon as the circle is broken. So if a Demon came in and attacked bobby with a knife, slashed across his chest then a demon could easily get in........or possibly Boby has a insane fear of needles and could never bring himself to get a a tat.

[Andron]

He probably does have the tattoo. However most of the devil traps and other charms that require a circle , become useless as soon as the circle is broken. So if a Demon came in and attacked bobby with a knife, slashed across his chest then a demon could easily get in........or possibly Boby has a insane fear of needles and could never bring himself to get a a tat.

The attack with a knive or anything like it to break the charm sounds reasonable. I guess, we may never really find out how it happened.

[Crichiel]

I think that he refused to sacrifice himself, because he is fed up with being a tool for the angels, especially Zachariah. I don't think that this was because he doesn't trust Sam any more. Dean already gave everything for Sam, his life, his soul, and now it's time for a different way, a way he chooses. And for this he was ready to sacrifice both of them.

I agree with this. I see it as Dean finally learning his lesson about self-sacrifice and that the ends don't always justify the means. I definitely didn't take it as a personal slight against Sam because he also said no to curing Bobby and himself.

[starg8fans]

I agree with this. I see it as Dean finally learning his lesson about self-sacrifice and that the ends don't always justify the means. I definitely didn't take it as a personal slight against Sam because he also said no to curing Bobby and himself.

I'm also beginning to think that Dean was taunting Zachariah. He wanted to show the 'two-faced douche' that despite his divine powers he didn't hold all the cards. Dean knows that they need him, and Sam is the only clout they have to force him to do what they want. The angel couldn't kill either of them without endangering Michael's return. So Dean called his bluff. Maybe he was only trying to buy them some time, but it paid off when Cas so conveniently showed up and put his former boss in his place.

[Crichiel]

I'm also beginning to think that Dean was taunting Zachariah. He wanted to show the 'two-faced douche' that despite his divine powers he didn't hold all the cards. Dean knows that they need him, and Sam is the only clout they have to force him to do what they want. The angel couldn't kill either of them without endangering Michael's return. So Dean called his bluff. Maybe he was only trying to buy them some time, but it paid off when Cas so conveniently showed up and put his former boss in his place.

And Dean's actually shown before that he will call a bluff. He did the same thing in It's Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester when he told Uriel to go ahead and smite the town...with him and Sam in it.

[flameling]

I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?

[LoneStar1836]

I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?

I wondered if that wasn't a possibility.

[the fifth man]

I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?

Could have been. This plan has been in the works for a very long time.

[starg8fans]

I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?

No, I didn't think of it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, unless the intruder was a psychopath, he may kill the mother if she caught him re-handed, but why would he kill a baby? It would have been much harder, if not impossible for Lucifer to convince Nick to act as his vessel if he had a wife and kid, so like Fifth said, this must have been set up quite some time ago.

[Andron]

No, I didn't think of it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, unless the intruder was a psychopath, he may kill the mother if she caught him re-handed, but why would he kill a baby? It would have been much harder, if not impossible for Lucifer to convince Nick to act as his vessel if he had a wife and kid, so like Fifth said, this must have been set up quite some time ago.

That's actually quite a clever plan of the demons to prepare Nick to become Lucifer's vessel. Kill everyone he loves and make it, so to speak, like an accident with no real connection to Lucifer himself. That way it looks like God abandoned Nick by letting the murder happen even tough it was orchestrated by the followers of Lucifer.
Hopefully this will be addressed in the show, if it actually happened this way.

Thanks for the theory guys and gals

[Crichiel]

No, I didn't think of it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, unless the intruder was a psychopath, he may kill the mother if she caught him re-handed, but why would he kill a baby? It would have been much harder, if not impossible for Lucifer to convince Nick to act as his vessel if he had a wife and kid, so like Fifth said, this must have been set up quite some time ago.

I too never thought about that, but I can see it. We know Azazel had his own 35 yr. plan put into motion by Lucifer. It isn't that big a stretch that Lucifer had more than just this one 'psychic kids' scheme with Yellow Eyes, Lilith, and Ruby going on during that time. He seems like a 'bigger picture' kind of guy!

[starg8fans]

Just re-watched Sympathy for the Devil, and I payed special attention to Dean's behaviour towards Sam - knowing what I know now about the state of their relationship in the later eps.

First of all, when Demon!Bobby came down on Sam like a ton of bricks, Dean never said a word to defend his brother, which was very unusual. I think the reason for this was that he'd kept his own anger and resentment at what Sam had done bottles up inside for so long, he was glad somebody else blamed Sam in the manner he would allow himself.

Then later, when Bobby told Sam in the hospital he never meant the words the demon made him say, Dean looked sort of thoughtful. Now the earlier tirade was rendered meaningless, he decided to come clean himself. It's like he needs Sam aware that his actions hurt somebody very close to him.

As for not taking any of the blame for breaking the first seal, there were two references to it. First in the motel room Dean said, "We made a mess, we clean it up." And later in the parking lot he tells Sam, "I know how sorry you are, I do." I take that to mean that he's been there himself with the self reproach.

Anyway, I don't think the issue Dean has with Sam is the fact that he brought on the Apocalypse. It's the fact that he turned his back on his family to side with a demon. And this is one reason why in my opinion Sam's more to blame for breaking a crucial seal than his older brother. Dean did what he did to break the first seal because it was the only way out from horrible, unending torture. And I don't think he expected any repercussions since he thought he'd be stuck in the pit for eternity. Sam chose the path willingly, and against the combined advice of Dean, Bobby and Castiel, knowing that his decisions would affect billions of lives. Of course he had the best intentions, but he was too sure of himself and chose to disregard anybody else's opinion.

[Crichiel]

First of all, when Demon!Bobby came down on Sam like a ton of bricks, Dean never said a word to defend his brother, which was very unusual. I think the reason for this was that he'd kept his own anger and resentment at what Sam had done bottles up inside for so long, he was glad somebody else blamed Sam in the manner he would allow himself.

Then later, when Bobby told Sam in the hospital he never meant the words the demon made him say, Dean looked sort of thoughtful. Now the earlier tirade was rendered meaningless, he decided to come clean himself. It's like he needs Sam aware that his actions hurt somebody very close to him.

As for not taking any of the blame for breaking the first seal, there were two references to it. First in the motel room Dean said, "We made a mess, we clean it up." And later in the parking lot he tells Sam, "I know how sorry you are, I do." I take that to mean that he's been there himself with the self reproach.

It IS really interesting to go back in any season, watch the first couple of episodes, and then put them into the context of what happens later!

Actually the first and third points here, I did bring up in my original post of this ep . Dean letting Bobby yell at Sam while he just stood by was one of my examples of Dean acting OOC. And also why I said I was half-expecting that during that scene DEAN was possessed, because he generally won't let anyone but himself yell at Sam. But, yes it is interesting to now put it in the viewpoint of subsequent episodes. We know now just how much anger Dean was holding onto over this.

And, having just watched Dead Man's Blood last night I was also reminded that Dean DID let their dad talk to Sam like that. And Bobby is like their dad, so that and the fact that Dean himself wanted to say all these things but was bottling it up would explain his letting Sam take the heat there.

In my original post, when I pointed out that Dean said "We started this...", I think I actually gave him more credit then than I do now after seeing Fallen Idols. When I hear it now it bugs me even more because just like in Fallen Idols I take it more as that, "It's not ALL your fault." It's too offhand. He doesn't sound like the tragically remorseful Dean of Heaven and Hell, Family Remains, and OTHOAP.

Whether it was Dean's fault or not, what he did in Hell and breaking the first seal hit two different nerves for him: 1) the knowledge of the pain he inflicted on those other souls and the fact that he enjoyed it when he is supposed to fight monsters that do the things he did and 2) his sore spot of disappointing his father, which he felt like he did by breaking in 30 years when his dad didn't break in 100. That's a whole lot of guilt and this is Dean we are talking about. I mean, Azazel magically spirited Sam away from him to a different state where Jake stabbed him in the back and Dean blamed HIMSELF for that one!! Dean hasn't been shown to let guilt go that easily. So, I guess it's been the blase way that Dean has admitted his guilt this season that's is irritating me.

But I think the point behind all this, as you pointed out (and as Dean says at the end of this episode), is that it isn't the apocalypse that Dean is upset about so much as the betrayal.