Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens.Spoilers/Discussion/Speculation

[Morbo]

palpatine killed plageus, he says as much in Ep 3 and it's pretty much not open to interpretation - more of just "read between the lines."

I agree that neither are siths at this point.

[aretood2]

If not Sith...what then?

[Morbo]

If not Sith...what then?

just a couple of wannabes i think. kylo obvious has force powers - but who knows if Snoke does. He could just be a really good manipulator who knows about the force through study and not because he is also force sensitive.

But i also categorize siths as the jedis of the dark side - they have to be basically anointed as masters to become a sith lord, where as any schmuck who is force sensitive and uses dark side powers is just a schmuck who uses dark side powers.

[aretood2]

just a couple of wannabes i think. kylo obvious has force powers - but who knows if Snoke does. He could just be a really good manipulator who knows about the force through study and not because he is also force sensitive.

But i also categorize siths as the jedis of the dark side - they have to be basically anointed as masters to become a sith lord, where as any schmuck who is force sensitive and uses dark side powers is just a schmuck who uses dark side powers.

The Sith do have their own language (Hinted in Lords of the Sith) so they must also have their own culture and heritage. A specific philosophy and legacy. If there are other dark siders, I wonder if there are other light siders out there. A galaxy is a big place. And if Han Solo could be skeptical of the power of members of an order of 10,000 space wizards playing central roles in the fate of the galaxy when he was a little kid...then surely smaller orders and movements could go by unnoticed, or at least unnoticed "onscreen".

[Morgania]

Is that why Snoke hasn't finished training Kylo Ren yet? He's not Force sensitive, and is researching "how to train an angry former Jedi apprentice".

[mandogater]

Is that why Snoke hasn't finished training Kylo Ren yet? He's not Force sensitive, and is researching "how to train an angry former Jedi apprentice".

That's as good a reason as any.

[Spimman]

If not Sith...what then?

The Sith, like the Jedi, are an order of force users. The Sith are a dark side order and the Jedi are a light side order. An individual could be a force user, even a powerful one, and reject the doctrine of both of these orders. This could be especially likely in the current environment where the Jedi order and the Sith order have both been, in essence, destroyed.

(Rob may be able to better explain what I'm saying on this)

I find it likely that Snoke is a Dark Lord of some sort, but may not follow the doctrine of the Sith. Kilo Ren on the other hand seems like someone who idolizes the Sith Lords of old, focusing his adoration on Darth Vader. This leaves the possibility that at some point he will strike down Snoke and find an apprentice of his own...but who really knows where the trilogy will go.

[Traianus Augustus]

In the old EU there were many different Force-using organizations in the galaxy, the Nightsisters of Dathomir being but one of them. It's just that the Jedi and Sith had always been the most prominent of these groups as they were the ones to shape galactic politics for the past several millennia. Given that, it's entirely conceivable that another one of these groups would emerge to the forefront.

I'm actually glad that Snoke isn't a Sith Lord as it gives the opportunity to explore other interpretations of the Force. It makes me wonder though, given Kylo Ren's idolization of Vader, if he will revive the Sith Order should he kill Snoke and assume mastery at some point in the future.

[DigiFluid]

The Sith, like the Jedi, are an order of force users. The Sith are a dark side order and the Jedi are a light side order. An individual could be a force user, even a powerful one, and reject the doctrine of both of these orders. This could be especially likely in the current environment where the Jedi order and the Sith order have both been, in essence, destroyed.

(Rob may be able to better explain what I'm saying on this)

No I think you nailed it.

To draw a real-world comparison, think of it (either the Jedi or the Sith, really) as the hardline Catholic Church of a few centuries ago. In their worldview, they are the 'one true belief.' Didn't matter if you held similar Christian beliefs; the God of the Bible, redemption through Christ, and so forth. You adhere to their doctrine, you're a member of their organization by their sufferance, or you're a heretic, fullstop.

Same thing with the Jedi and Sith Orders. They are longstanding, codified orders that believe their way is the one true way, and anything else is heresy/apostasy. You can be an adherent of the light or dark all you want, but you aren't Jedi or Sith unless you're inducted into their organization. And with the Sith fully destroyed (to the best of our knowledge) with the conclusion of ROTJ, their order is gone forever.

Snoke and Ren are dark-siders to be sure. But (again, to the best of our knowledge) they are not Sith.

[Spimman]

No I think you nailed it.

To draw a real-world comparison, think of it (either the Jedi or the Sith, really) as the hardline Catholic Church of a few centuries ago. In their worldview, they are the 'one true belief.' Didn't matter if you held similar Christian beliefs; the God of the Bible, redemption through Christ, and so forth. You adhere to their doctrine, you're a member of their organization by their sufferance, or you're a heretic, fullstop.

Same thing with the Jedi and Sith Orders. They are longstanding, codified orders that believe their way is the one true way, and anything else is heresy/apostasy. You can be an adherent of the light or dark all you want, but you aren't Jedi or Sith unless you're inducted into their organization. And with the Sith fully destroyed (to the best of our knowledge) with the conclusion of ROTJ, their order is gone forever.

Snoke and Ren are dark-siders to be sure. But (again, to the best of our knowledge) they are not Sith.

I doubt the films will go in this direction, but I could imagine a book chronicling Kilo Ren seeking out some lost Sith holocron, even better if he somehow acquires the holocron of Darth Bane.

[poundpuppy29]

So I've finished the novelization of TFA now, and while it did improve in the second half, I do stand by my original impression. Which was...not worth the extra effort. It told the exact same story while adding very little of consequence, and at the same time managed to lose a lot of the magic and charisma of the actors' performances (ha, imagine being able to say that 10 years ago!)

That said, I did do a bit of note-taking as I read along for you guys's benefit

I'm going to stick it all under some spoiler tags just so I don't make this post and page gigantic. Everything under this spoiler tag comes out of either the TFA novelization or else the childrens' reader Before the Awakening

Spoiler:

Differences from the film
The novel opens with a Leia scene, effectively just musing on how much she hopes they can find Luke.

Slight dialogue changes at Jakku massacre.

Right after the scene in which we are introduced to Snoke is a scene with Poe waking up on Jakku for the first time since they crashed the TIE fighter. He gets rescued by a local scavenger named Naka Iit. Iit takes him to someone named Ohn Gos, in Blowback Town, to get him off planet. Along the way they're briefly hassled by some raiders. Poe saves them when he takes over driving the transport and does some fancy flying to lose them.

An extra scene where Leia asks her attache, a Commander Korr Sella, to go speak to the New Republic Senate on her behalf (regarding the rising threat of the First Order). Sella is the woman who gets a close-up shot later on, in the giant city as they watch the superweapon's beam come down to destroy them.
Leia: You need to go to the Senate right away. Tell them I insist that they take action against the First Order. The longer they bicker and delay, the stronger the Order becomes. If they fail to take action soon, the Order will have grown so strong the Senate will be unable to do anything. It won't matter what they think.
Sella: With all respect: Do you think the senators will listen?
Leia: I don't know. So much time has passed. There was a time when they were at least willing to listen. And of course, the Senate's makeup has changed. Some of those who were always willing to pay attention to me have retired. Some of those who have replaced them have their own agendas. Not all senators think I'm crazy. Or maybe they do. I don't care what they think about me as long as they take action.
Sella: I'll do all I can to ensure the Resistance gets the hearing we deserve. But why don't you go yourself, General? An appeal of this nature is always more effective when delivered firsthand.
Leia: I might make it to the Senate, yes. I might even be able to deliver my speech. But I would never, never get out of the Hosnian system alive. I would have a terrible 'accident,' or become the victim of some 'deranged' radical. Or I would eat something that didn't agree with me. Or encounter someone who didn't agree with me. I have total confidence in you, Sella. I know you will deliver our message to the full extent of your considerable abilities.

Unkar Plutt comes to Maz Kanata's world looking for the Falcon. When he confronts them, Chewie rips off one of Plutt's arms saving Rey.

At Maz Kanata's base, the First Order aren't the only ones on the lookout for BB-8/Rey/Finn/Han/Chewie. One of the droids in Maz's bar is an ally of the Resistance droids, who sends out a signal to 3PO. This is how the Resistance knows to come to their rescue.

Rey's vision at the lightsaber in Maz's basement includes some extra scenes, including a "two figures locked in combat" at Cloud City, an unidentified boy who speaks no dialogue, and a voice that tells her "I'll come back, sweetheart. I promise."

When the planet-killer destroys the Hosnian system, it also destroys the bulk of the Republic's starfleet--hundreds of starships. There's also a brief cutaway to Leia when it happens, that she "feels a great disturbance in the Force."

During the battle at the First Order superweapon, the FO also launches something called "seekers" to attack X-wings. But these "seekers" aren't discriminating, shooting down anything flying--X-wings and TIE fighters both.


Extra character bits
Rey's home has "thousands" of scratches (the ones she marks for each day). Rey is 19 years old in TFA, so conservatively estimating that "thousands" means just 2000 -- she has been there for at least five and a half years. Ie she was placed into hiding, alone, when she was just 13 years old.

Kylo Ren is something new in terms of dark-siders. He is most definitely not in the same school of thought as the Sith that we're familiar with, musing at one point that "revenge is little more than an adolescent concession to personal vanity."

When Kylo Ren first confronts Rey on Maz's world (in the woods) he says, mystified, "Something. There is something... Who are you?" Later, when Rey uses the Force to take the Skywalker lightsaber, Ren comments "it is you."

A narrative line confirms that Han and Leia were and are still married, but haven't seen each other in "years." It's almost completely clear that they haven't seen each other since they lost Ben.

A little earlier, during Kylo Ren's mind-reading/interrogation of Rey on the First Order planet, he observes that she sees Han as "the father she never had."

Dialogue between Han and Leia heavily implies that that Snoke was manipulating Ben from very young, narratively echoing the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin.

When Kylo Ren takes off his mask in front of Han, it's the first time Han has seen his face as an adult.


Extra narrative/expository bits
The TIE fighter that Finn and Poe use to escape from the Star Destroyer is identified as a Special Forces fighter.

The Resistance planet is called D'Qar, and is located in the Ileenium system. Maz Kanata's base is on the planet Takodana. The First Order base's planet is not named, aside from being called Starkiller Base. When giving details on the facility to the Resistance people Finn tells them that it is the First Order's main base--so meaning that while the Republic took a colossal blow, so did the First Order.

Unkar Plutt was able to trace the Falcon back to Maz Kanata's world by means of an old Imperial homing device that was on the ship when he got it, and only took a little tinkering to get it working again. It's not stated outright, but the implication that this is the same homing device that Tarkin used to track the Falcon from the Death Star back to Yavin, in ANH.

The city that Korr Sella is in when the superweapon destroys the planet, is named Republic City.

The superweapon's functionality gets more explanation in the novel (though it's certainly still full of shaky logic). The weapon doesn't just draw from the nearest star--it draws from the most abundant thing in the entire universe--dark matter (meaning its power supply is effectively unlimited. That energy is drawn in to the planet core, where it is contained largely by the planet's own natural magnetic field, and that is reinforced by an additional containment field (which is the target of the Resistance attack in the final battle sequence). When the weapon fires, it bores a hole through regular space-time into hyperspace, where it then travels in a straight line at hyperspeed. It'll travel forever, unless a large enough gravitational body pulls it back into realspace. A star system or planet, for example.


Tie-ins to other nuCanon media
That is indeed Admiral Ackbar that we see at the Resistance base. He has not shirked his duty with the Republic starfleet. Rather, he was retired, and Leia talked him into coming to help with the Resistance fight. You may also have spotted the other familiar ROTJ face: the Sullustan pilot who flies in the final battle. That is Nien Nunb, who was Lando's co-pilot at the Battle of Endor, and has featured in several of the new Marvel comics.

One of the officers who speaks up at the Resistance briefing (older guy with a big white beard) is Major Ematt. Ematt has featured in a number of the nuCanon releases, including Before the Awakening, Moving Target, and Smuggler's Run/

The one Resistance pilot we see at the base and in the final battle--the white guy with a beard who's a bit heavyset? That is Captain "Snap" Wexley--whose real name is Temmin Wexley, and was one of the main protagonists of the novel Aftermath.

One of the other X-wing pilots is identified as Jess Pava, who previously appeared in both Before the Awakening and The Weapon of a Jedi.

ok you don't like AU how about Parallel Universes

I watched it twice and here's part of my theory about Rey. I think she must be either a twin of Ben's or she is somehow a daughter of Luke's and she was separated from her family after Ben went rogue and followed the Dark side.

Also Rey is probably going to start piloting the Millennium Falcon with Chewy and perhaps continue her Jedi training instead of returning to her scavenging quests.

Finn is probably going to help out the rebellion once he recovers from his injuries!

I was really glad that C-3PO wasn't as annoying as he had been in previous episodes, it seemed like he hogged too much of the stories at times!

I think so too but I am unsure if Luke knew where she was the real question is who put her there for what reason if it was not Luke I really don't know if it was him

I agree with her being a Skywalker (as an option), just not the daughter of Luke Skywalker. If she is that it means he abandoned his daughter or got someone pregnant without knowing it.

Did Uncle Owen have other children?

I think she is his daughter and he does know or did but not sure if he put her there or knew where she is or another theory is he thought she was dead that would make sense for him isolating himself IMHO the loss of a child is very devastating I wouldn't know myself know some who have

[aretood2]

I think that Luke knocked up someone (Sadly based on their looks, it can't be a former imperial agent with red hair >.>) and didn't know she was pregnant. And then when the whole Kylo Ren and the Academy thing went south, out of fear they hid her away. That way, Luke doesn't look like a jerk.

[poundpuppy29]

I think that Luke knocked up someone (Sadly based on their looks, it can't be a former imperial agent with red hair >.>) and didn't know she was pregnant. And then when the whole Kylo Ren and the Academy thing went south, out of fear they hid her away. That way, Luke doesn't look like a jerk.

I don't like that one I don't think Luke recreated the Jedi order just like it was before he wasn't raised in it and quite frankly the whole no serious attachments rule is stupid IMHO I think when things were going down with Kylo something did not go as planned not sure how to explain that but I think someone got to Rey's mother before she could get back to Luke and Rey got left and really believe Luke did not know where she was or thought she was dead

[aretood2]

I don't like that one I don't think Luke recreated the Jedi order just like it was before he wasn't raised in it and quite frankly the whole no serious attachments rule is stupid IMHO I think when things were going down with Kylo something did not go as planned not sure how to explain that but I think someone got to Rey's mother before she could get back to Luke and Rey got left and really believe Luke did not know where she was or thought she was dead

Not sure why you quoted my post there.

[Morgania]

Kinda off-topic, but...

Spoiler:

Episode 7.5- Snoke sends Kylo Ren on various undercover mission for his amusement. Hux and Phasma place bets on how long he'll stay in character.