Deep Space 9 Superior

[the Fifth Race]

DS9 Season II Episode Discussion
Episode #45 The Jem'Hadar

Sisko and Quark should go camping together more often. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, which is not to say that I thought it was great...it's fun when all the major characters get into the action.

Eris could have faked the fight, begged asylum, and gone back to DS9 without ever letting Starfleet see what the Jem'Hadar looked like. As for the starship's destruction, why would the Dominion want the Federation to know how much gumption they have in advance of a real battle, since they obviously expect retaliation for New Bajor?

The character development was good for Jake and Rom, but Quark's speech about Ferengi virtues makes me cringe: maybe the Ferengi had no concentration camps, but their treatment of women is pretty execrable. At least Kira and Dax got to run the station, she and Odo got to sort of profess their love, she got to have her life flash before her eyes while flying a ship...this is a better Kira episode than I first thought, with all the comedy and the subplots distracting me. They sure got everyone involved in this satisfying season ender.

Well the single player for Halo 3 was jsut too short, and they killed off my favorite person. So I guess I'm back.

Did you already get to the end and master it Captain?.

[Franklyn Blaze]

I'm definitely renting it then.

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

Did you already get to the end and master it Captain?.

Yep, that's one of the problems with it, it's way too short.

[Starbase]

DS9 Season II Episode Discussion
Episode #45 The Jem'Hadar

By the end of season 2, DS9 was a force to be reckoned with. The only thing the series lacked was a really good villain. It got three for the price of one. Turns out the Dominion is a trinity of evil: the Founders, the Vorta, and their enforcers, the Jem'Hadar. This episode marks the first appearance of the Jem'Hadar, those born-and-bred really bad guys whose mission in life is to serve the Founders. We're talking guys who are so bad, they'll ram into a retreating ship just to make a point.

What is supposed to be a working vacation in the Gamma Quadrant for Sisko and Jake turns into a surreal commentary on life and war when Nog and Quark go along for the ride. Sisko's prejudice against Ferengi is laid bare, and Quark calls him on it with remarkable candor. In fact, when the two are captured and imprisoned by the Jem'Hadar and it becomes obvious Quark's particular talents are needed for escape, the little Ferengi defiantly speaks his mind before giving in and contributing. Avery Brooks's Sisko is a very human--and fallible - Captain, and Armin Shimmerman really hits his stride with Quark, who is at his best when he has nothing left to lose. (This is the first time Quark serves as the "Greek chorus" for the series, and it's not the last.) Special kudos to Molly Hagen as the creepy Eris. "The Jem'Hadar" is an intelligent, powerful episode that reveals all, and nothing, about the Dominion.

[Trek_Girl42]

Sisko and Quark should go camping together more often. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, which is not to say that I thought it was great...it's fun when all the major characters get into the action.

Eris could have faked the fight, begged asylum, and gone back to DS9 without ever letting Starfleet see what the Jem'Hadar looked like. As for the starship's destruction, why would the Dominion want the Federation to know how much gumption they have in advance of a real battle, since they obviously expect retaliation for New Bajor?

The character development was good for Jake and Rom, but Quark's speech about Ferengi virtues makes me cringe: maybe the Ferengi had no concentration camps, but their treatment of women is pretty execrable. At least Kira and Dax got to run the station, she and Odo got to sort of profess their love, she got to have her life flash before her eyes while flying a ship...this is a better Kira episode than I first thought, with all the comedy and the subplots distracting me. They sure got everyone involved in this satisfying season ender.
Did you already get to the end and master it Captain?.

Quark and Sisko should go camping together more often. This was the episode where I started to like Quark- he'd had his moments before where I'd enjoyed watching him, but this was where I was convinced that he could become a pretty good character, an expectation which was surpassed after a few more seasons.

By the end of season 2, DS9 was a force to be reckoned with. The only thing the series lacked was a really good villain. It got three for the price of one. Turns out the Dominion is a trinity of evil: the Founders, the Vorta, and their enforcers, the Jem'Hadar. This episode marks the first appearance of the Jem'Hadar, those born-and-bred really bad guys whose mission in life is to serve the Founders. We're talking guys who are so bad, they'll ram into a retreating ship just to make a point.

What is supposed to be a working vacation in the Gamma Quadrant for Sisko and Jake turns into a surreal commentary on life and war when Nog and Quark go along for the ride. Sisko's prejudice against Ferengi is laid bare, and Quark calls him on it with remarkable candor. In fact, when the two are captured and imprisoned by the Jem'Hadar and it becomes obvious Quark's particular talents are needed for escape, the little Ferengi defiantly speaks his mind before giving in and contributing. Avery Brooks's Sisko is a very human--and fallible - Captain, and Armin Shimmerman really hits his stride with Quark, who is at his best when he has nothing left to lose. (This is the first time Quark serves as the "Greek chorus" for the series, and it's not the last.) Special kudos to Molly Hagen as the creepy Eris. "The Jem'Hadar" is an intelligent, powerful episode that reveals all, and nothing, about the Dominion.

Can I ask what a "Greek chorus" is?

"The Trinity of Evil" is the perfect way to describe the Dominion- they can cover all angles really, the founders through infiltration, the Vorta through more "diplomatic" means, and the Jem-Hadar as the sheer brute force. This all certainly gave the Dominion a leg above the average villain.

[USS Defiant]

Yep, that's one of the problems with it, it's way too short.

I'm definitely renting it then.

I tried it at my friends house and it was ok, I didn't find anything that special about it. And now with learning the game isn't really that deep, I might just skip Halo 3 altogether..

[the Fifth Race]

Can I ask what a "Greek chorus" is?

Brother Starbase described it perfect when using the term Greek Chorus in this episode.

Here is the long version on the phrase Greek Chorus .... In tragic plays of ancient Greece, the chorus (choros) is believed to have grown out of the Greek dithyrambs and tragikon drama. The chorus offers a variety of background and summary information to help the audience follow the performance, commented on main themes, and showed how an ideal audience might react to the drama as it was presented. They also represent the general populace of any particular story. In many ancient Greek plays, the chorus expressed to the audience what the main characters could not say, such as their fears or secrets. The chorus usually communicated in song form, but sometimes spoke their lines in unison.

"The Trinity of Evil" is the perfect way to describe the Dominion- they can cover all angles really, the founders through infiltration, the Vorta through more "diplomatic" means, and the Jem-Hadar as the sheer brute force. This all certainly gave the Dominion a leg above the average villain.

I wholeheartedly agree Lady Trek, I love that title "The Trinity of Evil" - brother Starbase delivered a great review for The Jem'Hadar.

[USS Defiant]

DS9 Season II Episode The Jem'Hadar
Memorable Quotes

Quark and Sisko -
"You Federation types are all alike: You talk about tolerance and understanding, but you only practice it toward people who remind you of yourselves. Because you disapprove of Ferengi values, you scorn us, distrust us, insult us every chance you get."
"Quark, I don't have to stand here and defend myself."
"Tell me, Commander, would you allow your son to marry a Ferengi female?"
"I never thought about it!"

Quark and Sisko -
"The way I see it, hew-mons used to be a lot like Ferengi: greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget."
"We don't have time for this..."
"But you're overlooking something: Hew-mons used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi. Slavery. Concentration camps. Interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you. We're better. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a lock to pick."

Kira and Talak'talan -
"I'm Third Talak'talan of the Jem'Hadar. I am here to inform you that your commander has been detained for questioning by the Dominion."
"Detained? For how long?"
"Indefinitely. Commander Sisko will serve as an example of what happens to anyone who interferes with the Dominion."
"What kind of interference are you talking about?"
"Coming through the Anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the Galaxy."

Kira and Talak'talan -
"Here is a list of vessels we've destroyed for violating our territory."
"Where did you get this datapadd?"
"From the Bajoran colony on our side of the Anomaly. You should be proud. I hear they fought well for a spiritual people. I hope we won't have to repeat this lesson."

Dax, Keogh, and Bashir -
"If you're going to try to rescue them, then we're coming with you."
"Are you sure that's wise? With the exception of Major Kira and Mister O'Brien, none of you've had much combat experience."
"We fought the Maquis."
"All the Maquis had were a pair of lightly armed shuttlecraft. I expect the Dominion to have sharper teeth."
"Well then, you're gonna need all the help you can get!"

O'Brien and Sisko -, after the destruction of the USS Odyssey
"We were retreating. There was no need for a suicide run."
"They're showing us how far they're willing to go."

Sisko and Kira -
"She'll be back. The question is who she'll bring with her."
"If the Dominion comes through the Wormhole, the first battle will be fought here. And I intend to be ready for them."

Talak'talan and Sisko -
"A Ferengi and a Human. I was hoping the first race I'd meet from the other side of the Anomaly would be the Klingons."
"I'm sorry to disappoint you."
"It's too late for apologies. The Dominion will no longer stand by and allow ships from your side to violate our territory."

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

I found something out, season 4 is hands down my favorite season.

[gopher65]

I tried it at my friends house and it was ok, I didn't find anything that special about it. And now with learning the game isn't really that deep, I might just skip Halo 3 altogether..

I think the idea behind Halo is the multiplayer. There isn't much of a single player game from what I've read so far.

[Franklyn Blaze]

Ya my younger brothers just beat it in a day each, kinda of sad.

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

I don't know if you've played on XBL but I don't like a 10 year old kid dropping F bombs, it's annoying.

[Starbase]

Quark and Sisko should go camping together more often. This was the episode where I started to like Quark- he'd had his moments before where I'd enjoyed watching him, but this was where I was convinced that he could become a pretty good character, an expectation which was surpassed after a few more seasons.

Quark rocked in the episode The Jem'Hadar. His conflict and arguing with Sisko was so well done. I never really though it this way, but Sisko and Quark have great chemistry on screen. - With the way Sisko puts up with Quark to Quarks hidden respect he holds for Sisko and visa/versa. There always entertaining together.

Can I ask what a "Greek chorus" is?

Here is the long version on the phrase Greek Chorus .... In tragic plays of ancient Greece, the chorus (choros) is believed to have grown out of the Greek dithyrambs and tragikon drama. The chorus offers a variety of background and summary information to help the audience follow the performance, commented on main themes, and showed how an ideal audience might react to the drama as it was presented. They also represent the general populace of any particular story. In many ancient Greek plays, the chorus expressed to the audience what the main characters could not say, such as their fears or secrets. The chorus usually communicated in song form, but sometimes spoke their lines in unison.

The long version, indeed!. Basically Quark (either narrating or conversation) tells us (the audience) what we are thinking even though the characters aren't saying it. Anotherwords Quark has the guts to tell it like it is, no matter who's toes he steps on.

"The Trinity of Evil" is the perfect way to describe the Dominion- they can cover all angles really, the founders through infiltration, the Vorta through more "diplomatic" means, and the Jem-Hadar as the sheer brute force. This all certainly gave the Dominion a leg above the average villain.

Why thank you Trek_Girl, but I can't take credit for it. I first heard it used by brother Fifth Race to descirbe the Dominion years ago when the show was still on-air with its original run. He probably doesn't even remember.

[USS Defiant]

DS9 Season II Episode The Jem'Hadar

Behind the Scenes
The working title of the episode was "The Dominion".

The original script for this episode mentions that the Jem'Hadar shroud is similar to that employed by the Tosk. It also notes that the Tosk were engineered as a gift to the Hunters as a reward for their loyalty to the Dominion, thus establishing that the Hunters and Tosk were Dominion members. However, none of this was actually mentioned in the episode itself.

In an early version of the script, Quark cited the Hundred Years' War, the Auschwitz concentration camp and the Tarsus IV massacre as barbaristic events that nothing in Ferengi history could match.

According to writer Robert Hewitt Wolfe, the Dominion knew about the Federation long before the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole and had plans to deal with it when the time came. However, the Dominion did not expect contact with the Alpha Quadrant for another 200 years, which is explained in "The Search, Part I". With the wormhole providing immediate access between the Alpha and Gamma Quadrants, Wolfe says the Dominion's plans for the Federation were disrupted, which explains why it chose to observe and gather information until the end of the second season.

Writer/producer Ira Steven Behr admits that mistakes were made in the process of defining the personality and nature of the Vorta. This is most evident in the lack of telekinetic powers among later Vorta characters, and the fact that Eris did nothing to acknowledge Odo as a Founder.

After Quark's speech in which he concludes that the Ferengi are less barbaric than humans and thus better, the stage directions say that, while Sisko is not at all convinced, Quark's words give him food for thought.

The Odyssey was the third Galaxy-class starship destroyed onscreen, following the Yamato and the Enterprise (TNG: "Contagion", "Cause and Effect"). Reportedly, a number of fans became nervous when they saw the trailer for this episode, which featured a shot of the Odyssey exploding, which some thought was to be the destruction of the Enterprise-D, since this episode aired weeks after the conclusion of Star Trek: The Next Generation. The choice to make the Odyssey a Galaxy-class starship was to demonstrate that the Jem'Hadar could have destroyed the Enterprise-D had the ship appeared in the episode and to make the Dominion threat all the more terrifying.

This was the last episode for which Michael Piller served as the writing supervisor.

Sets
The Odyssey bridge is of a completely different configuration than the Enterprise-D bridge. It is possible that Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was unable to use the bridge set from The Next Generation as Star Trek Generations was being filmed around this time.

Firsts
This episode is the season finale of DS9's second season and features the first appearance of the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta. It also marks the start of the producers' strategy of leaving the audience in suspense and building on events in previous seasons without the use of cliffhangers. This strategy later led the show to take on a serial-like feel, and became quite common for DS9 in later seasons. This was somewhat controversial among Star Trek fans, some of whom felt that Star Trek was not intended to be shown in this manner. However, others felt it was the natural way for a series like DS9 to progress.

Links to other episodes
The trade negotiations to which Quark refers began in the episode "Rules of Acquisition", which was the first episode to mention the Dominion. Behr has said this was an intentional way of hinting at future events in an otherwise inconsequential episode. There was also an indirect reference in "Sanctuary" to the fact that the Dominion invaded the Skrreea homeworld, as well as in "Shadowplay".

A good deal of research and technical upgrading took place some time after this episode, as Federation starships are far less vulnerable than the Odyssey to Dominion weapons in later engagements. When the Dominion attempted to take over Deep Space 9 at the end of season five, Weyoun was surprised to learn that the station's shields were holding despite the fact that they previously had been useless against Dominion weapons (DS9: "Call to Arms").

The actor who portrayed Captain Keogh, Alan Oppenheimer, was seen previously in the TNG episode "Rightful Heir" as Koroth, the Chief Cleric of Boreth responsible for the cloning of Kahless, and he also portrayed numerous characters on various programs made by Filmation Studios which also produced Star Trek: The Animated Series.

[Krisz]

The Jem'Hadar

Until now we only had vague descriptions and knowledge of the Dominion, which gave us a feeling of anticipation of getting to know them coupled with a little sense of unease. Along comes this episode and we are left in no doubt of what the Dominion is about. There is no room left for interpretaion of their intentions, they don't 'socialise' and make nice first contacts! Threats are eliminated without any hesitation by an army that was bred specifically to carry this directive out.

The Dominion is shown as an all powerful unstoppable force and for me this episode gives us one of the most frightening 'first contacts' in Trek history after the Borg. The Dominion is worse in some ways because they work to infiltrate as well, as shown by the Vorta Eris. This aspect of Dominion espionage is developed to frigtening levels in later seasons. I have to say I didn't suspect Eris to be a spy when I first saw this episode.

I agree with everyone on how Quark excelled in this episode. Each time you want to look at him as an insignificant irritating charcter you are corrected by his candid observations and gain more admiration for him. Again this is another episode that touches on the 'race relations' issue by asking the right questions like how Humans can look 'down' on Ferengi as unscrupulous when Humans aren't a complete model of tolerance or understanding themselves.

It's really good re-watching DS9 again and being reminded why this show is in my top shows list. Someone in a discussion about what attracted them to Stargate said it was the 're-watchability aspect' of it. DS9 certainly has it as well, and not many shows can claim this distinction!

Thanks for the 'behind the scenes' info USS Defiant. As always it made interesting reading and really does add to my enjoyment of the episodes with the fresh insights they give me.