Deep Space 9 Superior

[maneth]

That scene's very profound. And as a skeptic, it made me despair for the future of intelligent life in the universe, not just humanity.

[USS Defiant]

Indeed brother Fuzz, and a great call. I will break it down since I just re-watched Rapture last night -- Worf argues on Kira's side for faith against a reluctant Dax and O'Brien. "Since when did you believe in the Prophets?" Dax asks him. "What I believe in," he answers, "is faith." -- "That's not much to bet his life on," Dax says. "You're wrong. It's everything," Kira responds with a distinct aura of certainty. The subtle complexity of the acting in this argument is quite interesting, as you so well pointed out my friend. And by commenting on the plot, the characters not participating in it are put to a very reasonable use. It's brilliantly detailed.

Great call by both you and brother CF. It was such attention to detail that IMO made DS9 a superior show. Like we saw on other great scifi shows, for example B5 and Stargate, the difference between good and great is in the care that's given to creating detailed scenes (be it small or large), that open up the various characters and show us something new or something we aren't expecting.

[USS Defiant]

I gave Rapture a rewatch myself. It gets better each time.

I found it fascinating with Sisko's discovery of B'hala, and the domino effect which leads to several brilliantly realized character turns. Most notable is the change in Kai Winn's attitudes, which she voices to Kira in two separate, wonderful exchanges. Winn admits to having been wrong about doubting Sisko as the Emissary, for the one who found B'hala must be the one who was sent by the Prophets. This isn't so much a change in heart as it is something that challenges the direction of her beliefs (things are no longer simple). Her path is no longer clear, and she doesn't know who her enemies are.

It's also fascinating because it's such a perfectly truthful example of cause and effect. It's completely warranted, credible, and follows from the past actions of Winn's character, which is wise writing. It's true character evolution, the type of thing that really works while simultaneously being the type of thing that is particularly challenging to pull off. It's one of very the best examples of faith and direction that the series has displayed.

This new problem is something that Winn is worried about, faith is all that she has, or has ever had. During the Occupation she had the strength and will to continue teaching her beliefs at the price of Cardassian beatings. And unlike those in the Resistance, as she pointedly explains to Kira, she didn't have weapons, all she had was her faith.

Winn has always appeared to be a somewhat/very underhanded, But Rapture implicitly explains a lot about Winn and her motives and history, and the results are stellar.

[Cold Fuzz]

Indeed brother Fuzz, and a great call. I will break it down since I just re-watched Rapture last night -- Worf argues on Kira's side for faith against a reluctant Dax and O'Brien. "Since when did you believe in the Prophets?" Dax asks him. "What I believe in," he answers, "is faith." -- "That's not much to bet his life on," Dax says. "You're wrong. It's everything," Kira responds with a distinct aura of certainty. The subtle complexity of the acting in this argument is quite interesting, as you so well pointed out my friend. And by commenting on the plot, the characters not participating in it are put to a very reasonable use. It's brilliantly detailed.

it's a brilliant scene and one of my favorites in all of Trek lore. It's a scene that could only have taken place on DS9. It illustrates a great disparity between the skeptics and the believers among the crew with Sisko in a unique position between the groups. Before coming to DS9, he was just a Starfleet captain. I say just because there are many Starfleet captains but only one Emissary. He was a skeptic but through the Prophets, he was slowly and inexorably transformed into not just a believer, but reborn as an icon to millions of other believers. Even his enemies knew and believed he was something far greater than a Starfleet captain. This is why, despite their posturing, jealousy, and hatred of him, they greatly feared Sisko.

[Starbase]

I gave Rapture a rewatch myself. It gets better each time.

One of the things I found interesting was the Kassidy/Jake/Ben dynamic that plays out towards the end of the episode... With the return of Kasidy Yates, Sisko would be leaving behind two loved ones if he traded his life for his visions. Is it worth it to sacrifice himself? Jake sure doesn't thinks so, nor does Kasidy. Understandably, they suddenly find themselves looking at a man they thought they knew everything about with a sense of total incomprehension. which was played oh so brilliantly. But the bigger question here is: What if risking your life would put the understanding of the entire universe in your hand? That's a pretty tough argument. It's a credit to the writers that they came up with something so audacious yet oh so human.

[Saquist]

One of the things I found interesting was the Kassidy/Jake/Ben dynamic that plays out towards the end of the episode... With the return of Kasidy Yates, Sisko would be leaving behind two loved ones if he traded his life for his visions. Is it worth it to sacrifice himself? Jake sure doesn't thinks so, nor does Kasidy. Understandably, they suddenly find themselves looking at a man they thought they knew everything about with a sense of total incomprehension. which was played oh so brilliantly. But the bigger question here is: What if risking your life would put the understanding of the entire universe in your hand? That's a pretty tough argument. It's a credit to the writers that they came up with something so audacious yet oh so human.

That's another reason why the maquis thread was very useful and powerful aspect to DS9 despite it's origin.
Taking away Kassidy like that was a bit unprecedented and her return felt very real like things actually had consequences even though we must acknowledge that we are watching escapism TV. That gives it a 3 Dimensional feel.

[the Fifth Race]

That's another reason why the maquis thread was very useful and powerful aspect to DS9 despite it's origin.

Agreed. I believe if the TPTB didn't create and use the Dominion storyline - They might have made DS9 more about the Maquis than anything else. Which wouldn't have been a bad thing, but it certainly doesn't rank up there with the Dominion arc.

Taking away Kassidy like that was a bit unprecedented and her return felt very real like things actually had consequences even though we must acknowledge that we are watching escapism TV. That gives it a 3 Dimensional feel.

Another good call Saquist. I am not the biggest Kassidy Yates fan, but watching her and Sisko's romance blossom was an interesting part of the series, and like you mentioned, when they brought her back after an extended absence it just felt right.

[the Fifth Race]

A Maquis based question for me fellow Star Trek/DS9 brethren....

Does anyone believe a DS9 show based mainly on the Maquis, (not the Dominion) would have done well enough to last 7 seasons?

Or would it have kept your interest?

How would it have played out // Or how would you have liked it to turn out?

[SaberBlade]

A Maquis based question for me fellow Star Trek/DS9 brethren....

Does anyone believe a DS9 show based mainly on the Maquis, (not the Dominion) would have done well enough to last 7 seasons?

Or would it have kept your interest?

How would it have played out // Or how would you have liked it to turn out?

I don't think it would have worked.

Perhaps it's a simple way of looking at television, but I believe that once you have a way of doing things that works, it's a bad idea to change it. I believe it's why shows like CSI can last 7 seasons easily. Law and Order can do more than 10 easily but at the same time it can also work for stuff like Power Rangers, Transformers, Gundam, game series like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell, Halo. All the same as the other series/games in their franchise, but different in their own right.

A Maquis show would be too different straight away. No exploration, no scientific research, it wouldn't be about the betterment of humanity and learning to be better, but to throw that away and become a bunch of freedom fighters fighting a war they could never win, were never allowed to win, were pretty much ultimately humiliated in defeat (as the only place survivors ended up were Federation Penal colonies and Voyager) and at the same time, you'd have to wonder why they were even fighting.

American Indians decided to give up Federation citizenship and protection and live under Cardassian jurisdiction. That's fine, they were happy to do it, they wanted to live in peace. The Maquis in all their infinite wisdom decided that they'd just bomb the **** out of as many Cardassians as possible, give up their Federation citizenship first change they got because hey, who needs Starfleet and to think that they could get away with it, especially once they started firing on Starfleet ships.

Voyager really should have developed the Maquis better, rather than turning them into upstanding Starfleet officers with a bit of a past, that would have been much better than a 7 season show about the Maquis.

[jelgate]

A Maquis based question for me fellow Star Trek/DS9 brethren....

Does anyone believe a DS9 show based mainly on the Maquis, (not the Dominion) would have done well enough to last 7 seasons?

Or would it have kept your interest?

How would it have played out // Or how would you have liked it to turn out?

As radical as no Dominion sounds DS9 was never about just about the Dominion. Their were many other stories that were told. As long as the hypothetical scenario is as good as the non-Dominion story arcs we saw I say yes.

[Cold Fuzz]

A Maquis based question for me fellow Star Trek/DS9 brethren....

Does anyone believe a DS9 show based mainly on the Maquis, (not the Dominion) would have done well enough to last 7 seasons?

Or would it have kept your interest?

How would it have played out // Or how would you have liked it to turn out?

Though I think the Maquis opened up some interesting possibilities for storytelling, I don't think think the Maquis conflict itself was enough to last 7 seasons. The wormhole and what lay on the other side in the Gamma Quadrant were essential to DS9's framework. Otherwise, what would be the point of discovering the wormhole in the first place if what was on the other side wasn't going to be a priority for the storytelling? I think the wormhole, the Prophets, and the Dominion can't be demoted to window dressing to an Alpha Quadrant-based conflict centering on the Maquis. Their story isn't big enough. The Dominion brought something new, powerful, and frightening to a quadrant that had become frankly a little blind and provincial to the greater universe at large—especially potential enemies. The Maquis story I think worked well as part of a greater tapestry that blended the Dominion, the Prophets/Pah-wraiths, and Bajor's entry into the Federation.

[Spimman]

Though I think the Maquis opened up some interesting possibilities for storytelling, I don't think think the Maquis conflict itself was enough to last 7 seasons. The wormhole and what lay on the other side in the Gamma Quadrant were essential to DS9's framework. Otherwise, what would be the point of discovering the wormhole in the first place if what was on the other side wasn't going to be a priority for the storytelling? I think the wormhole, the Prophets, and the Dominion can't be demoted to window dressing to an Alpha Quadrant-based conflict centering on the Maquis. Their story isn't big enough. The Dominion brought something new, powerful, and frightening to a quadrant that had become frankly a little blind and provincial to the greater universe at large—especially potential enemies. The Maquis story I think worked well as part of a greater tapestry that blended the Dominion, the Prophets/Pah-wraiths, and Bajor's entry into the Federation.

Well said - as alone a medium size low tech rebel group fighting for a small (in the scheme of the whole federation) region of space couldn't be as successful as what we got!

[SaberBlade]

I just realised I misread your question. Sorry about that, it's late and my PS3 is acting weird.

But no, I don't think the Maquis could have carried the story. The Maquis were never that good an enemy. Individually, the Maquis were interesting. Eddington, Laren, Chakotay, Paris, Torres and occasionally being Maquis lead to interesting stories, but the Maquis never had the overall "Oh God, Oh God, we're all gonna die" menace about them.

Maybe if the Maquis were further developed than ignored and given two Eddington episodes (which were more about him really) then maybe they could have been a better villain but I don't believe they ever wanted to come off like that, so the PTBs wouldn't have done it like that.

[Cold Fuzz]

Well said - as alone a medium size low tech rebel group fighting for a small (in the scheme of the whole federation) region of space couldn't be as successful as what we got!

That's the thing about the Maquis. Their conflict with the Cardassians was huge to them. But in the grand scheme of things, I honestly don't think they ever saw the big picture. Such a small conflict couldn't have been as interesting or intense as a galactic clash of interstellar empires.

I just realised I misread your question. Sorry about that, it's late and my PS3 is acting weird.

But no, I don't think the Maquis could have carried the story. The Maquis were never that good an enemy. Individually, the Maquis were interesting. Eddington, Laren, Chakotay, Paris, Torres and occasionally being Maquis lead to interesting stories, but the Maquis never had the overall "Oh God, Oh God, we're all gonna die" menace about them.

Maybe if the Maquis were further developed than ignored and given two Eddington episodes (which were more about him really) then maybe they could have been a better villain but I don't believe they ever wanted to come off like that, so the PTBs wouldn't have done it like that.

Though the Maquis definitely didn't deliver that big all-consuming "we're all screwed" problem, I do like the idea that they were one of the contributing factors in driving the Cardassians to join the Dominion.

[Giantevilhead]

Agreed. I believe if the TPTB didn't create and use the Dominion storyline - They might have made DS9 more about the Maquis than anything else. Which wouldn't have been a bad thing, but it certainly doesn't rank up there with the Dominion arc.

It's ironic how the Maquis were put in DS9 through executive meddling but when the DS9 writers wanted to do an arc about the Federation being fractured by Dominion sabotage, those same executives axed that idea.