Deep Space 9 Superior

[Trek_Girl42]

Have you seen all of season 7 yet Trek_Girl42? If you haven't don't click the spoiler below.

Nope, season seven is the only season that I haven't seen a single episode of.

[HirogenGater]

Have you seen all of season 7 yet Trek_Girl42? If you haven't don't click the spoiler below.

Ah, I can out creep you HirogenGator.

Spoiler:

Dukat and Kai Winn were doing the nasty with each other. The thought of them sharing a bed made my skin crawl...

Bleurgh! Excuse me, I need some fresh air...

Thanks for reminding me.

[HirogenGater]

Nope, season seven is the only season that I haven't seen a single episode of.

There are quite a few great episodes in season 7.

[Brigadier General Pants]

There are quite a few great episodes in season 7.

By S7 they really had some cracking space battles happening. But of course, to wrap everything up in 20 odd eps, with all the threads present in DS9, is a big ask, and I felt it got away from them a little. Especially because they had to devote quite a few eps to establishing Ezri as a character. And the finale was not my fave in the ST universe... but still enjoyable.

[Anubis69]

Have you seen all of season 7 yet Trek_Girl42? If you haven't don't click the spoiler below.

Ah, I can out creep you HirogenGator.

Spoiler:

Dukat and Kai Winn were doing the nasty with each other. The thought of them sharing a bed made my skin crawl...

Bleurgh! Excuse me, I need some fresh air...

... Oh there they are. The recurring nightmares. Yay. Cheers Freeman. Remind me to shake my fist at you at a later date.

Back on topic, no matter how much of a creep he was there was something that made me enjoy watching him. Even if it was just to see what mood he was in... Pretty much anything with Dukat was enjoyable.

[the Fifth Race]

What the heck is it with Dukat?. He one of the most insidious evil villains there has ever been in any scifi genre, movie or series....In 2002, Dukat placed fourth in TV Zone's list of the top twenty science fiction television villains. The Borg Queen was second, Weyoun was eighth, Q was eleventh and Seska was nineteenth.....Yet he is sometimes likable and pleasant. He has had at least 6 assassination attempts on his life, his father was executed by the Obsidian Order, he gave up his rank as Legate to remain a Gul, yet he smiled through it all while maintaining his charm the whole time.

Mad genius?...maybe
Misunderstood patriot?...HA!
Delusional megalomania?...definetly
You try to put any kind of tag on the guy and nothing quite fits his persona.

I really wonder how much of the brilliance of his character is due the great writing and character development or is most of the credit due to Marc Alaimo's acting ability?.

I find Moore's take on Dukat fascinating....

Ronald D. Moore commented:

I don't think of him as being completely evil through and through to the point where every thought, every impulse is shaded by a nefarious agenda or horrid motive. We've seen other aspects to this guy over the years. He *can* be charming. He *can* be generous. He *can* do the right thing. All of that somehow makes his "evil" actions all the more dispicable, because we know that there was the potential in there for him to be a better person. But sometimes the cliches are true: Hitler loved his dog. No human being (and by extension, no Cardassian) is one hundred percent pure evil. But there is a "critical mass", if you will, where the dark deeds attributed to one person become so overwhelming that they swamp all the redeeming characteristics. Dukat is a bad guy. A very bad guy. He has a lot of blood on his hands and it's hard to see how his smile and innate charm can wipe that clean.

[Descent]

And the finale was not my fave in the ST universe... but still enjoyable.

This is how I would pair up the ST finales:

1. "What You Leave Behind" and "All Good Things..." - Awesome. Everything I had hoped for. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't have done anything differently. WYLB even got me glassy eyed during the last 20 minutes which rarely ever happens to me.

2. "Endgame" - Good on some levels, not as good on others. Most of it was good but it was not everything it should have been under the circumstances, IMO.

3. "These are the Voyages..." - Nope. Ball dropped. I'm not even gonna go into this one.

[Brigadier General Pants]

I really wonder how much of the brilliance of his character is due the great writing and character development or is most of the credit due to Marc Alaimo's acting ability?

I would imagine RDM had a lot to do with it? But for sure, Marc Alaimo made the perfect reptilian antagonist.

This is how I would pair up the ST finales:

1. "What You Leave Behind" and "All Good Things..." - Awesome. Everything I had hoped for. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't have done anything differently. WYLB even got me glassy eyed during the last 20 minutes which rarely ever happens to me.

2. "Endgame" - Good on some levels, not as good on others. Most of it was good but it was not everything it should have been under the circumstances, IMO.

3. "These are the Voyages..." - Nope. Ball dropped. I'm not even gonna go into this one.

I liked all the wrap-ups except ENT's, but I thought "All Good Things" succeeded at least partially because it wasn't really a finale - they knew they were going on to feature films, so TPTB didn't feel the pressure to wrap everything up so neatly. "What You Leave Behind" tried to do that, and I didn't feel the denouement was as neat as intended... I mean, Sisko is this major figure of Bajoran prophecy, and in the end, his big job was to flying tackle Gul Dukat?

But still, as I said before, it was a big ask to wrap up such a big show.

[USS Defiant]

This is how I would pair up the ST finales:

1. "What You Leave Behind" and "All Good Things..." - Awesome. Everything I had hoped for. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't have done anything differently. WYLB even got me glassy eyed during the last 20 minutes which rarely ever happens to me.

2. "Endgame" - Good on some levels, not as good on others. Most of it was good but it was not everything it should have been under the circumstances, IMO.

I'm with you there

The series finale of DS9 was awe inspiring, the way the Dominion war played out with the Damar/Kira, Pai Wriaths, Section 31 and the Founder disease, the Breen, Cardassian fleet rebeling, solidifying the Klingon/Federation alliance, the Romulans ...etc... was very satisfying and better than I ever imagined. DS9 had a true ending, TPTB took there time (3 1/2 seasons) to build up to end, nothing was rushed and the quality shined through.

Even though, overall, I don't rank Voyager as highly as DS9 or TNG, I did enjoy the ending of the series, sure there were plot holes and it all seemed contrived and way to convienant, but it did have an ending.

I liked all the wrap-ups except ENT's, but I thought "All Good Things" succeeded at least partially because it wasn't really a finale - they knew they were going on to feature films, so TPTB didn't feel the pressure to wrap everything up so neatly. "What You Leave Behind" tried to do that, and I didn't feel the denouement was as neat as intended... I mean, Sisko is this major figure of Bajoran prophecy, and in the end, his big job was to flying tackle Gul Dukat?

I agree with you about the ending of TNG, they did know the series was going to carry into movies, good point.

As far as how they left the Sisko storyline (with him joining the Prophets) at the end of DS9 was surprising, but a nice surprise!. It was one of only a few open links they left on DS9 where it could be explored later in a movie or novel.

[Brigadier General Pants]

I'm with you there

The series finale of DS9 was awe inspiring, the way the Dominion war played out with the Damar/Kira, Pai Wriaths, Section 31 and the Founder disease, the Breen, Cardassian fleet rebeling, solidifying the Klingon/Federation alliance, the Romulans ...etc... was very satisfying and better than I ever imagined. DS9 had a true ending, TPTB took there time (3 1/2 seasons) to build up to end, nothing was rushed and the quality shined through.

I thought the whole series played out so well; I'm with you on that. And I did definitely enjoy the finale. I guess I'm being picky because it was just so gosh darn good overall

As far as how they left the Sisko storyline (with him joining the Prophets) at the end of DS9 was surprising, but a nice surprise!. It was one of only a few open links they left on DS9 where it could be explored later in a movie or novel.

I did like that angle too. They could leave it hanging or explore it, either way it worked.

[the Fifth Race]

This is how I would pair up the ST finales:

1. "What You Leave Behind" and "All Good Things..." - Awesome. Everything I had hoped for. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't have done anything differently. WYLB even got me glassy eyed during the last 20 minutes which rarely ever happens to me.

The series finale of DS9, IMHO was not only the best ending of any Trek series but also the best ending of any scifi series. Ira Steven Behr and the other DS9 'powers that be', at the end of season 4 got the word from Paramount that the series was to run 7 seasons. So they knew they had 3 seasons to build up the Dominion War storyline, which they did so beautifully!. Not only was the ending well done, but over seasons 5, 6 and 7, DS9 gave us some great back stories and explored various races in the Trek universe better than any other series. There are just so many aspects of DS9 that are superior to any other scifi or Trek series.

2. "Endgame" - Good on some levels, not as good on others. Most of it was good but it was not everything it should have been under the circumstances, IMO.

Agreed, like brother USS Defiant said, Voyager was also not my favorite of the Trek series but at least they did have a viable ending, even though it did seemed non-original and rather "contrived".

[the Fifth Race]

I thought the whole series played out so well; I'm with you on that. And I did definitely enjoy the finale. I guess I'm being picky because it was just so gosh darn good overall

There is nothing wrong with being picky BGP. I wouldn't say I had a big enough problem with the ending that it diminished my overall feelings about DS9, but if I were to be picky there are a couple things that I could have done with out.....I wish they would have done something different with Pai Wraith storyline without involving Dukat, personally I would have loved to seen Dukat at that table where the female Founder signed the surrender treaty where the new Cardassian govt would have taken him into custody to face one of those famous you are already (predetermined) guilty before it starts Cardassian trials. I also would not have minded one bit if Dukat would have turned face at the end and joined the Cardassian insurgency with Damar and Kira. That all being said, it was still rather satisfying seeing.....

Spoiler:

Dukat and the Kai Winn die miserably in the fire caves

I did like that angle too (about what happened to Sisko). They could leave it hanging or explore it, either way it worked.

Have you ever read any of the many DS9 canon novels that followed the series BGP?.

[Brigadier General Pants]

I also would not have minded one bit if Dukat would have turned face at the end and joined the Cardassian insurgency with Damar and Kira.

Yet another reason I liked Dukat. I think I would have been happy if he had stayed bad or gone good... there was always that touch of ambivalence which meant it really could have gone either way. But it was apt that Sisko's enemy from the beginning was his nemesis at the end.

Have you ever read any of the many DS9 canon novels that followed the series BGP?.

No! I've been looking for the relaunch novels locally, but I think I may have to use Amazon.

[the Fifth Race]

Yet another reason I liked Dukat. I think I would have been happy if he had stayed bad or gone good... there was always that touch of ambivalence which meant it really could have gone either way. But it was apt that Sisko's enemy from the beginning was his nemesis at the end.

I guess Dukat couldn't beat Sisko the Federation officer so he tried to destroy Sisko the emissary. I still believe Dukat when it's all peeled away was someone who wanted to be appreciated and respected above anything else. I mean we all strive for respect and appreciation from family, friends and peers, but Dukat was so obsessed with it that he destroyed everyone and everything around him trying to obtain the impossible.

The more we talk about Dukat the more I appreciate his character. He was so easy to hate the first time I watched DS9 during its original airing, but the more times I re-watch these seasons over and over the more I get into the individual characters. Bashir was another character I never really cared for that much during the original airing, but after re-watching DS9 several times he is now at the top of my list.

No! I've been looking for the relaunch novels locally, but I think I may have to use Amazon.

I have read a few canon and non-canon novels where Sisko was involved, one where Kira took over DS9 after the war, the Dominion re-establishes there dominance in the Alpha Quadrant, they destroy the wormhole and the Prophets while alienating the Romulans and Klingons from the Federation, attacking the Breen and the Andorians and inciting a second Dominion War.

There was another canon story about how Sisko comes back to DS9 after 5 years to help Bajor and the Federation.

There are also some good books that follow the exploration of the Gamma Quadrant right after the Dominion war ends.

[Brigadier General Pants]

I guess Dukat couldn't beat Sisko the Federation officer so he tried to destroy Sisko the emissary. I still believe Dukat when it's all peeled away was someone who wanted to be appreciated and respected above anything else. I mean we all strive for respect and appreciation from family, friends and peers, but Dukat was so obsessed with it that he destroyed everyone and everything around him trying to obtain the impossible.

Yes! I felt that too about Dukat. It was like he was driven by the need to force everyone to love him and appreciate him, and the more everyone refused to give him the love and respect he felt he deserved, the harder he tried to get it. It is so deliciously pathetic and scary.

The more we talk about Dukat the more I appreciate his character. He was so easy to hate the first time I watched DS9 during its original airing, but the more times I re-watch these seasons over and over the more I get into the individual characters.

At first I thought he was a bit of a lame villian; not very imposing physically, not even intellectually intimidating like Q, but he really was the definitive 'thorn in our heroes side' because, just sometimes, you thought he wasn't really a thorn.

Bashir was another character I never really cared for that much during the original airing, but after re-watching DS9 several times he is now at the top of my list.

I think I grew to like every character more during the course of the show, Bashir was no exception. I have a special fondness for Garak. He got such juicy one-liners.

I have read a few canon and non-canon novels where Sisko was involved

And if you had to recommend one?