Helen Magnus/John Druitt Ship/Discussion/Appreciation

[helenmagnus23]

I love your sig's shel & JenniferJF

[JenniferJF]

Ashley

Spoiler:

It would latch onto her becase she shares the same gift as Druitt very but could she control it as well or would it fully consume her ?

Ashley overcame the Cabal programming, at least for short periods of time, and enough to choose death rather than harm Helen. So, I think she might be able to. Yeah. Cause that, at least, she did seem to inherit from her father.

[Nynaeve506]

Ashley overcame the Cabal programming, at least for short periods of time, and enough to choose death rather than harm Helen. So, I think she might be able to. Yeah. Cause that, at least, she did seem to inherit from her father.

Which is what I think would allow Helen to feel closer to John -

Haunted S. 3 spec :

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*IF* they went this route and had the creature enter Ashley - it would no doubt cause a huge degree of suffering for Helen but rather than be angry with John because he passed on such violence, she would find comfort that his strength is what would be allowing their little girl to carry on. But again, that's speculation... we have... forever to figure it out.

How many episodes did they order for S.3?

[JenniferJF]

How many episodes did they order for S.3?

20. Which is good news not only because it means more episodes next year, but if they do with it what they generally do with larger orders, Syfy is likely to run 10 over 3 months, then wait 3 months, then run 10, then wait 3 months, and then, hoping it continues to get renewed, keep that up. Which is so much better than having to wait 9 months! After about 10 episodes, I could do with a few months to process

[Nynaeve506]

20. Which is good news not only because it means more episodes next year, but if they do with it what they generally do with larger orders, Syfy is likely to run 10 over 3 months, then wait 3 months, then run 10, then wait 3 months, and then, hoping it continues to get renewed, keep that up. Which is so much better than having to wait 9 months! After about 10 episodes, I could do with a few months to process

Yes! Very exciting! The thing with Sanctuary is that there are so many layers they need more story time, I think. Some shows like "Dexter" flourish in the 12-13 episode format (it keeps the story telling tight), but I'm so craving more information on John and Helen's past!

[ann_sgcfan]

As for the events in 1888, John didn't say he stopped murdering in 1888 because he'd lost the taste for the sport, but James asked why he'd moved the 7th body (which was the second to the last assuming Molly's was the last murder before Helen shot at him) to a different location - why John's profile had changed. And John's answer was that perhaps he'd lost the taste for the sport. Which is still interesting and which we have no canon reason for, and which an electric shock doesn't really explain ... Though I incorporated it into my own story of that time period (which is why I remember that detail in the first place lol)

You're right John didn't say he stopped murdering, only he was losing the taste for what he was doing (and yes I understand it's about moving the body) but he still reasoned he was losing the taste for it.

Spoiler:

Something had to happen for the creature to lose the taste for it. Then right after Molly, the murders stopped as far as Watson and Helen knew. They thought John was dead. How did it stop, because John was obviously not dead. And I know this is something only DK can answer.

This is why I want to know... Helen and Watson of all people would have seen any pattern that resembled the JtR case in any time period and gone to investigate. John/creature had to be way below the radar for Helen and Watson not to be on his case. It may be that his teleporting power allowed any murders to appear random in many different countries/ cities. As vicious as that creature appeared to be, John had to be tormented somewhere, how come Helen and Watson never caught on he was alive until current time? I just think it goes a long way in explaining just how much John has endured at the hands of the creature.

It creates more angst for John living through it and Helen when she realizes just how much John has endured.

[JanSam]

You're right John didn't say he stopped murdering, only he was losing the taste for what he was doing (and yes I understand it's about moving the body) but he still reasoned he was losing the taste for it.

Spoiler:

Something had to happen for the creature to lose the taste for it. Then right after Molly, the murders stopped as far as Watson and Helen knew. They thought John was dead. How did it stop, because John was obviously not dead. And I know this is something only DK can answer.

.

Spoiler:

But how do we know Molly was John's last victim? The flashback we were shown has Helen trying to stop John, but John cutting the throat of the woman before Helen gets the shot off. As this wasn't JtR usual MO I'm sure this wasn't attributed to him and we don't know if this was suppose to happen before Molly or after Molly. Perhaps Helen's interference caused John to sway away from killing or killing in the same manor so as not to be found by Helen again.

[JenniferJF]

Spoiler:

But how do we know Molly was John's last victim? The flashback we were shown has Helen trying to stop John, but John cutting the throat of the woman before Helen gets the shot off. As this wasn't JtR usual MO I'm sure this wasn't attributed to him and we don't know if this was suppose to happen before Molly or after Molly. Perhaps Helen's interference caused John to sway away from killing or killing in the same manor so as not to be found by Helen again.

We do know, though, that was the murder right after the one James questioned, as he tells Helen in the flashback he'd already murdered 7 whores, and James is specifically asking about the seventh victim.

What I've always thought - and the events of Haunted just reinforce this aspect of it - is that part of the whole killing thing was the sport and game of it as much as the actual violence of the deaths. And possibly part of that was messing with the minds of everyone in London, especially James and Helen. But by #7, that specific game had started to get old and boring. So the Molly scene is then, effectively, the 'end game' there in London in which he has a final confrontation with Helen before moving on to other games in other places. Because I agree, I don' think that was necessarily the last killing per se, but the last in that time and place and in that manner. 'The Game' there had gotten old and boring and it was time to go find another.

[Nynaeve506]

We do know, though, that was the murder right after the one James questioned, as he tells Helen in the flashback he'd already murdered 7 whores, and James is specifically asking about the seventh victim.

What I've always thought - and the events of Haunted just reinforce this aspect of it - is that part of the whole killing thing was the sport and game of it as much as the actual violence of the deaths. And possibly part of that was messing with the minds of everyone in London, especially James and Helen. But by #7, that specific game had started to get old and boring. So the Molly scene is then, effectively, the 'end game' there in London in which he has a final confrontation with Helen before moving on to other games in other places. Because I agree, I don' think that was necessarily the last killing per se, but the last in that time and place and in that manner. 'The Game' there had gotten old and boring and it was time to go find another.

Haunted

Spoiler:

I think you're right on that one. The creature enjoys being creative (and figuring out it's host) - my guess was that these were the initial test run to see what he could do before going on to become creative. (Materializing with his hand inside Tesla, creative if not a bit bloody)

Do we know at what point Helen thought he was dead?

[ann_sgcfan]

When John materialized with his hand inside Tesla wasn't that after Tesla shocked him and John had said the madness that drove him was gone.

Spoiler:

Now granted the creature was apparently asleep/ unconscious or whatever for a while, but I thought John was feeling more like his old self. He seemed to have the guilt of his past, but not the rage.

The shooting in 1888 - I always took it that the night Molly died was the last time Helen saw John alive, because Helen was telling Will the story of who John was and how she knew him (isn't that what ques the flashback of her shooting John)? It was during the 2nd hour of the two hour premiere. Also if you look at the first couple of episodes John has a scar on his cheek from where Helen supposedly shot him, it's gone some time after the season started. Maybe Helen nearly killed him and wherever he teleported to he had to stay until he was healed? I dunno.

Haunted

Spoiler:

I don't know what the answer is ... only DK does when he writes it... lol which I hope is next season. I thought the creature's instinct/ primary goal was to kill. Didn't John say something like that during the episode? While in control of the Sanctuary the creature was learning about it's surroundings, but immediately it separated everyone. Then tried to kill Kate, Bigfoot and Will. Then went to work on a lethal drug to disperse inside the sanctuary to kill the rest and possibly the city after that.

It seemed to have a single mindedness to kill. Which brings up another question - obviously the creature is in control when it kills, but does John have control and he tries to live some sort of life until the rage becomes too much and then creature takes over? Kind of like the kid in season 1 with that thing coming out of his belly and it killed when it felt threatened and the kid couldn't control it. Is it something like that ... or is the creature always in control like the Goa'uld symbiote on SG1 and the host is powerless? Another question for DK.

Hi Jan *waves* glad you joined the discussion

[yessika]

Season 3 *spec*:

Spoiler:

I agree it would be nice if we got some flashbacks from that 1888 shooting until he reappeared in Helen's life.

John and Ashley coming back at the same time, with one of them with the creature still inside, really sounds like something interesting with many posibilities (hopefully with some fluff )

So our schedule could change because of the 20 episodes? That is interesting... I'm sure if we get a break in between episodes it will provide us with some opportunities to rewatch and discuss (which is nice)

[AresLover452]

I hope so to Ares, Helen has been in a similer situation like in Requim & Veritas it would be good if she could forgive him alittle

with her still being angry at John, I think she is being a little hypocritical. I mean she nearly killed Will in Requiem , and she went crazy in Veritas (granted of her own accord) but some of her forgiveness needs slide John's way.... at least in part.

[JenniferJF]

Haunted

Spoiler:

It seemed to have a single mindedness to kill. Which brings up another question - obviously the creature is in control when it kills, but does John have control and he tries to live some sort of life until the rage becomes too much and then creature takes over? Kind of like the kid in season 1 with that thing coming out of his belly and it killed when it felt threatened and the kid couldn't control it. Is it something like that ... or is the creature always in control like the Goa'uld symbiote on SG1 and the host is powerless? Another question for DK.

Excellent question.

Spoiler:

I suspect from what we've seen it's some sort of mix - that the creature directs much of John's actions but he also has some control and influence over it. I think that's what Helen believes, at least, based on the final scene when she tells John he'd kept the creature at bay and from killing as much as it would have without his curbing it. It's also, I think, what we see in his final decision to teleport away and try to kill the creature, and even what I think we see way back in the pilot when he's looking at the pocket watch because that's not rage, that's longing.

In a way, I think it's probably similar to how it was for Ashley, with her programming attempting to control her completely, but her having the strength and will to overcome that occasionally but, like you said, we need more information to know for certain.

[JenniferJF]

with her still being angry at John, I think she is being a little hypocritical. I mean she nearly killed Will in Requiem , and she went crazy in Veritas (granted of her own accord) but some of her forgiveness needs slide John's way.... at least in part.

Haunted:

Spoiler:

I think by the end of Haunted Helen does understand what is going on with John and is no longer angry with him. It's not so much that she forgives him as she realizes he did nothing wrong. Blaming him is tantamount to blaming the victim of a crime - he was hijacked in his own body and had his life ripped away from him. You don't blame someone for being kidnapped. Moreover, as her final words indicate, she even realizes he was actually more than simply a victim, but had managed to exert enough control over the thing that having it inside John meant less deaths than having it inside the Sanctuary.. All those year's he'd kept it at bay, not allowing it to rampage as much as it might have without his control.

But just because she was no longer angry with him doesn't mean she was going to fall into his arms and start spouting romantic drivel. First, she's really not the sort of person I can imagine ever spouting romantic drivel and second, the situation they were in was so intense and they had so little time to process what was going on there at the end that they both had to maintain rigid emotional control to do what had to be done. They couldn't afford to let their emotions out or they would simply get in the way.

Or, in other words, don't mistake Helen's emotional barriers and supports for lack of feeling... She's not a person who shows emotions easily, especially under crisis.

[ann_sgcfan]

Haunted:

Spoiler:

I think by the end of Haunted Helen does understand what is going on with John and is no longer angry with him. It's not so much that she forgives him as she realizes he did nothing wrong. Blaming him is tantamount to blaming the victim of a crime - he was hijacked in his own body and had his life ripped away from him. You don't blame someone for being kidnapped. Moreover, as her final words indicate, she even realizes he was actually more than simply a victim, but had managed to exert enough control over the thing that having it inside John meant less deaths than having it inside the Sanctuary.. All those year's he'd kept it at bay, not allowing it to rampage as much as it might have without his control.

But just because she was no longer angry with him doesn't mean she was going to fall into his arms and start spouting romantic drivel. First, she's really not the sort of person I can imagine ever spouting romantic drivel and second, the situation they were in was so intense and they had so little time to process what was going on there at the end that they both had to maintain rigid emotional control to do what had to be done. They couldn't afford to let their emotions out or they would simply get in the way.

Or, in other words, don't mistake Helen's emotional barriers and supports for lack of feeling... She's not a person who shows emotions easily, especially under crisis.

I agree!

Spoiler:

I think Helen has a lot to process now in regard to John. WHat she thought she knew she didn't. I don't think she is still angry with him, because now she knows the truth. She may be a little angry at herself for not realizing her fiance has been trapped for so long.

I think Helen guards her emotions pretty closely. It's not that she doesn't feel anything, but that she just doesn't show it to others. Like not wanting to spend Ashley's birthday alone. I think losing so many over the years has in some ways hardened her emotions.