Helen Magnus/John Druitt Ship/Discussion/Appreciation

[AresLover452]

still cute... lol!!

Gods!! Need Friday to be here!!

[Emengee]

Agreed!

[AresLover452]

I can only imagine what good Magnett happenings we are going to get!!

[ClassicCouples]

I was rewatching SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt 2 and THE FIVE and came up with some more stuff for the time line. So I took my time line and added in the dates that Artie gave us, plus some more stuff that I came up with.

Spoiler:

1850 : about when Helen was born

1885 : The Five at Oxford (where John and Helen were only friends, according to John who said to Ashley in THE FIVE: "but it became more serious later.")

1886 : THE FIVE - flashback to injection of the source blood (this would make Helen about 36 at this time, which didn't seem right to me, but I don't know)

1887 : WEBISODES engagement @ play

1888 : SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt 2 - flashback to Helen shooting John - Whitechapel (Jack the Ripper killed possibly 8 women in '88 and John in SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt 2 said, "I already murdered, what, seven whores?" so this would be the 8th)

* Helen finally accepts who he really is and freezes the embryo

1910 : FOR KING AND COUNTRY - flashbacks with Prime Minister, H/J on the bridge (where they talk about her shooting him), and Helen shooting Adam

1942 ('43) : Helen is in London with Tesla when she fakes his death (THE FIVE)

1944 : Helen is at the Invasion of Normandy (HERO II)

1983 ('85) : Ashley is born

2008 : SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt 1 - John comes back to the Sanctuary for more of Helen's blood.

2009 : Ashley dies (END OF NIGHTS)

2010 : HAUNTED - find out about the creature

2010 : FOR KING AND COUNTRY

But I was also thinking, after some discussion with someone else:

Spoiler:

When did Helen first give John her blood? She said to Will, in SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt2, "He was my first patient . . . He was dying. I gave him my blood to prolong his life." I know that it must be before she shot him. But what would have caused him to be dying at that young an age (around late 30s I would say)? Unless his teleporting was killing him.

This is something else that Helen must not be able to forgive herself for. It is because of her that he is still alive and killing. Because when he was injected with the source blood, his gift was teleportation, the only reason he is still alive today is because she gave him her blood. At least that is what I am thinking.

A question from a friend:

Spoiler:

This is a question that someone I have been talking to has. They think that there are some inconsistencies with John's character.

Why is it that John seem so much like himself when they were all in London with the Prime Minister? Had he stopped killing? I guess they were thinking that because he had Helen's blood in him that he had stopped killing, but her blood only prolonged his life. It was only after Tesla electrocuted him (after Helen poisoned him in SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt 2), that the creature was under complete control for the time being.

But back to 1910, because when Helen and John were on the bridge and she said: "Just tell me the killings have stopped" his reply was: "So, we’re returning to lying to one another." Obviously he couldn't tell her that he had stopped killing, so the hunt would be back on, now that she knew he was still alive, as soon as Adam was taken care of.

I don't really have a problem with him being able to go back and forth - John/Jack. Because he seemed pretty under control enough in HAUNTED, at least until the lady started taunting him and then Jack came out.

Anyway, just a lot of stuff I was thinking about. Once I get going it is hard for me to shut down.

[LadyGalaxyJ]

I was rewatching SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt 2 and THE FIVE and came up with some more stuff for the time line. So I took my time line and added in the dates that Artie gave us, plus some more stuff that I came up with.

<snip>

CC - I so hate you! (in a good way) I was making a big The Five Timeline and was about ready to show it to you guys. I'm just waiting for an answer from a friend. Oh well the only thing you pointed out that I hadn't included already was

Spoiler:

the Normandy invasion.
But isn't that too big a spoiler? Because of episode 3x17, which is called Normandy.

Anyway, I'll show you mine soon anyway. I'm quite proud of it!

But I was also thinking, after some discussion with someone else:

Spoiler:

When did Helen first give John her blood? She said to Will, in SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt2, "He was my first patient . . . He was dying. I gave him my blood to prolong his life." I know that it must be before she shot him. But what would have caused him to be dying at that young an age (around late 30s I would say)? Unless his teleporting was killing him.

This is something else that Helen must not be able to forgive herself for. It is because of her that he is still alive and killing. Because when he was injected with the source blood, his gift was teleportation, the only reason he is still alive today is because she gave him her blood. At least that is what I am thinking.

Not spoilered, it's things we already know about from season 1.
We only know that he was ill/hurst/something else, but that she had to give him her blood in order to save him - which in fact prolonged his life. And you're right, and she says it in SFA II. She blames herself for allowing, as Will pointed out, "one of to most notorious killers of all times" into this century. It's because of her that he lives today.

A question from a friend:

Spoiler:

This is a question that someone I have been talking to has. They think that there are some inconsistencies with John's character.

Why is it that John seem so much like himself when they were all in London with the Prime Minister? Had he stopped killing? I guess they were thinking that because he had Helen's blood in him that he had stopped killing, but her blood only prolonged his life. It was only after Tesla electrocuted him (after Helen poisoned him in SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt 2), that the creature was under complete control for the time being.

But back to 1910, because when Helen and John were on the bridge and she said: "Just tell me the killings have stopped" his reply was: "So, we’re returning to lying to one another." Obviously he couldn't tell her that he had stopped killing, so the hunt would be back on, now that she knew he was still alive, as soon as Adam was taken care of.

I don't really have a problem with him being able to go back and forth - John/Jack. Because he seemed pretty under control enough in HAUNTED, at least until the lady started taunting him and then Jack came out.

Anyway, just a lot of stuff I was thinking about. Once I get going it is hard for me to shut down.

My thoughts on the creature are that it sometimes takes control of him and other times lets him lead - when it wants to rest or something.

When Tesla electrocuted John, it must have stunned the creature for a while, as John says he feels like he's back in complete control. I've always assumed that since it was an electrical/energy being, the electrocution hurt it.

And in Haunted, well, it was awake and decided to take control of John. Which would make for going back and forth between John and Jack. But per the end of Haunted, I think that now that the creature knows John knows about it, it will be less incline to give him back control. 'Cause he could try hurting it.

Does it make sense?

[ClassicCouples]

CC - I so hate you! (in a good way) I was making a big The Five Timeline and was about ready to show it to you guys. I'm just waiting for an answer from a friend. Anyway, I'll show you mine soon anyway. I'm quite proud of it!

I am SO sorry!! I can't wait to see what you came up with!

Oh well the only thing you pointed out that I hadn't included already was

Spoiler:

the Normandy invasion.
But isn't that too big a spoiler? Because of episode 3x17, which is called Normandy.

Spoiler:

Too big a spoiler? Maybe that is why they brought it up in HERO II. They wanted to have talked about it before they do an episode on it? Idk.

My thoughts on the creature are that it sometimes takes control of him and other times lets him lead - when it wants to rest or something.

When Tesla electrocuted John, it must have stunned the creature for a while, as John says he feels like he's back in complete control. I've always assumed that since it was an electrical/energy being, the electrocution hurt it.

And in Haunted, well, it was awake and decided to take control of John. Which would make for going back and forth between John and Jack. But per the end of Haunted, I think that now that the creature knows John knows about it, it will be less incline to give him back control. 'Cause he could try hurting it.

Does it make sense?

That makes total sense! And I totally agree with what you said about now that the creature knows. And that is what I was thinking, but I couldn't get the other person to get it. I will send this to them. lol.

Spoiler:

But they all have to work together in the next couple episodes. How is he going to stay in control?

[LadyGalaxyJ]

Spoiler:

Too big a spoiler? Maybe that is why they brought it up in HERO II. They wanted to have talked about it before they do an episode on it? Idk.

Idk either. Anyway, it'll be spoilered when I post it because it has so many things on season 3 that I can't not spoiler it. Hahaha. ;P

That makes total sense! And I totally agree with what you said about now that the creature knows. And that is what I was thinking, but I couldn't get the other person to get it. I will send this to them. lol.

Spoiler:

But they all have to work together in the next couple episodes. How is he going to stay in control?

Idk about that too. But I can't wait to find out!

Spoiler:

Although, it does seem that in Vigilante he and Helen are on some kind of hunt/quest for answers on the city.

I'm thinking the creature knows John after all this time and knows that, while he's trying to save Helen, he won't be trying to get it out of himself. There are other more important things he can do. Also, he does seem to be using violence in the promo. Perhaps the creature takes solace in that. Over all, I just tink it's pretty intelligent and will act when it's time. When it's not and it knows there's no danger around, it had no reason for controlling John - and will simply lay back and wait for the right opportunity.

[ClassicCouples]

Idk either. Anyway, it'll be spoilered when I post it because it has so many things on season 3 that I can't not spoiler it. Hahaha. ;P

Oh, I thought that you meant my saying that was too big a spoiler! I think you're right, any time line right now should be spoilered because of all the events in FK&C.

Idk about that too. But I can't wait to find out!

Spoiler:

Although, it does seem that in Vigilante he and Helen are on some kind of hunt/quest for answers on the city.

I'm thinking the creature knows John after all this time and knows that, while he's trying to save Helen, he won't be trying to get it out of himself. There are other more important things he can do. Also, he does seem to be using violence in the promo. Perhaps the creature takes solace in that. Over all, I just tink it's pretty intelligent and will act when it's time. When it's not and it knows there's no danger around, it had no reason for controlling John - and will simply lay back and wait for the right opportunity.

I agree. Like in HAUNTED. John was fine and apparently so was the creature, until the empath (?) felt the creature inside of him and started to get scared. That probably sparked him to come out.

[Artie]

One of the big issues in timelines is how much we're relying on the historical figures that these characters are based on, and how much we're not. The real Tesla would have been five years younger than the age we're given for Helen, and the real Druitt seven years younger. Which doesn't make sense. When they were at Oxford, Helen was twenty six when he was nineteen?

So I think anyone writing them has to make decisions about how much they're going to stick to what. It would, JMO, make more sense for Helen to be ten years younger, born in 1860, because then she would have been 28/29 at the time of her engagement to John, who would have been 32. Rather than she was 39 and he was 31. It's a canon issue, and I expect they hadn't entirely thought through all of this when Helen said she was 157 in Sanctuary for All.

[LadyGalaxyJ]

O.O You're right.

I don't want Helen to be older than John. XD

But since we were given an age for Helen, I'm going to stick to it. Let's just say, for my personnal canon that Druitt was born ten years earlier then he did in RL.

Tesla could be five years younger. I don't think The Five was created in their early days at Oxford anyway. I'm thinking in their last years and they just kept seeing eachother when their studies were over - altough I'm not sure how much time Helen took classes... She couldn't technically enroll, so she was simply auditing. How much classes could one woman audit in those times? o.ô


EDIT: I don't think age difference matters after 100+ years. But this is now - I know. I'm just saying.

[JanSam]

I agree. Like in HAUNTED. John was fine and apparently so was the creature, until the empath (?) felt the creature inside of him and started to get scared. That probably sparked him to come out.

But was John fine in the beginning of Haunted? I don't think he was. When John teleports in he is staring at the blood on his hand. Helen notices and questions how he is.

Transcript-

[Will brings a gurney over and John places the woman on it. Helen helps Will guides the gurney to go out of the lab. Turning back to John she sees him staring at his bloody hand.]

HELEN
John?

[John seems to be lost in thought and struggles to answer her.]

JOHN
Quite a day.

[Helen studies John as he seems a bit off.]

HELEN
Thank you for answering my call.

JOHN
It seems business is never finished with us despite our losses.

HELEN
I'm just saying, I couldn't have done it without you.

JOHN
Well, all hands on deck, hmm? Besides, I've missed this place. You know, vengeful killing sprees are good for the soul, but... there's no place like home.

HELEN
Quite a lot of teleportation for one day, you feeling any worse for wear?

JOHN
Right as rain; in fact, I've... I've never felt better.

[Helen turns to go to her patient waiting for her in the OR. John stares menacingly at two survivors who are looking at him in alarm.]

and later...

KATE
Tell me again why you're trying to bring a homicidal maniac back to life.

HELEN
It's more about compulsion than murder. I set him up for this, letting him loose on the Cabal. He knew I'd find out about his activities sooner or later. He wanted me to kill him.

KATE
No offense but you guys got a seriously messed up relationship.

HELEN
It's complicated. Charge the defibrillator. Second button there to 200 and clear!

And when she is trapped in the cell with him....

HELEN
This is my fault, John. I should never have believed that you could change, that you had changed. How many have there been since...

JOHN
Since you let me back in? Does it matter?

HELEN
You've been killing again and not just Cabal remnants.

[John turns back to face Helen.]

JOHN
Does it matter that I never wanted it to begin again, that I tried to stop? Helen, I tried!

HELEN
This is Whitechapel all over again.

And one last piece from the transcript....

HELEN
You said you feel... different. What do you mean by that?

JOHN
The darkness within me is gone... completely. Far more than when Tesla shocked me, that was appeasement, but this... this is... so peaceful.

Loving the discussions everyone; just wish I have more time to join in!

[ClassicCouples]

One of the big issues in timelines is how much we're relying on the historical figures that these characters are based on, and how much we're not. The real Tesla would have been five years younger than the age we're given for Helen, and the real Druitt seven years younger. Which doesn't make sense. When they were at Oxford, Helen was twenty six when he was nineteen?

So I think anyone writing them has to make decisions about how much they're going to stick to what. It would, JMO, make more sense for Helen to be ten years younger, born in 1860, because then she would have been 28/29 at the time of her engagement to John, who would have been 32. Rather than she was 39 and he was 31. It's a canon issue, and I expect they hadn't entirely thought through all of this when Helen said she was 157 in Sanctuary for All.

This is a good point, but the real Jack the Ripper was never identified, so we have no real way of knowing when he was born.

O.O You're right.

I don't want Helen to be older than John. XD

But since we were given an age for Helen, I'm going to stick to it. Let's just say, for my personnal canon that Druitt was born ten years earlier then he did in RL.

Tesla could be five years younger. I don't think The Five was created in their early days at Oxford anyway. I'm thinking in their last years and they just kept seeing eachother when their studies were over - altough I'm not sure how much time Helen took classes... She couldn't technically enroll, so she was simply auditing. How much classes could one woman audit in those times? o.ô

EDIT: I don't think age difference matters after 100+ years. But this is now - I know. I'm just saying.

It is funny how we always want the guy to be older than the girl.

I did do a little research into women and medicine at the time. Frances Hoggan "was the first British woman to receive a doctorate in medicine from a university in Europe...She obtained her medical qualification from the University of Zurich in 1870, completing the six year course in three years." There were others around that time, but I am sure that just because it was allowed, didn't make it any easier. So, in 1888, approximately when they were at Oxford, it still may have been hard for her to become a doctor.

Spoiler:

Even the Prime Minister couldn't quite wrap his head around the fact that she was a doctor. So, sometime before 1910, she had officially become a doctor.

I am so not able to focus right now, so I am sorry if it doesn't make much sense.

[ClassicCouples]

But was John fine in the beginning of Haunted? I don't think he was. When John teleports in he is staring at the blood on his hand. Helen notices and questions how he is.

Transcript-

Spoiler:

[Will brings a gurney over and John places the woman on it. Helen helps Will guides the gurney to go out of the lab. Turning back to John she sees him staring at his bloody hand.]

HELEN
John?

[John seems to be lost in thought and struggles to answer her.]

JOHN
Quite a day.

[Helen studies John as he seems a bit off.]

HELEN
Thank you for answering my call.

JOHN
It seems business is never finished with us despite our losses.

HELEN
I'm just saying, I couldn't have done it without you.

JOHN
Well, all hands on deck, hmm? Besides, I've missed this place. You know, vengeful killing sprees are good for the soul, but... there's no place like home.

HELEN
Quite a lot of teleportation for one day, you feeling any worse for wear?

JOHN
Right as rain; in fact, I've... I've never felt better.

[Helen turns to go to her patient waiting for her in the OR. John stares menacingly at two survivors who are looking at him in alarm.]

and later...

KATE
Tell me again why you're trying to bring a homicidal maniac back to life.

HELEN
It's more about compulsion than murder. I set him up for this, letting him loose on the Cabal. He knew I'd find out about his activities sooner or later. He wanted me to kill him.

KATE
No offense but you guys got a seriously messed up relationship.

HELEN
It's complicated. Charge the defibrillator. Second button there to 200 and clear!

And when she is trapped in the cell with him....

HELEN
This is my fault, John. I should never have believed that you could change, that you had changed. How many have there been since...

JOHN
Since you let me back in? Does it matter?

HELEN
You've been killing again and not just Cabal remnants.

[John turns back to face Helen.]

JOHN
Does it matter that I never wanted it to begin again, that I tried to stop? Helen, I tried!

HELEN
This is Whitechapel all over again.

And one last piece from the transcript....

HELEN
You said you feel... different. What do you mean by that?

JOHN
The darkness within me is gone... completely. Far more than when Tesla shocked me, that was appeasement, but this... this is... so peaceful.

Loving the discussions everyone; just wish I have more time to join in!

I love this! Thanks for sharing (I spoilered it for length). I wish I had more time so that I could really think about what I am posting!! LOL. Anyway, this transcript is very revealing! I will have to go over it when I don't have a million things on my mind. It is so awesome that the more information we are given as this season goes, the more important the information from previous seasons becomes. Does that make sense? While rewatching SANCTUARY FOR ALL and THE FIVE the other day, things mean more than they did before. Different things stand out to me.

[kes]

But I was also thinking, after some discussion with someone else:

Spoiler:

When did Helen first give John her blood? She said to Will, in SANCTUARY FOR ALL prt2, "He was my first patient . . . He was dying. I gave him my blood to prolong his life." I know that it must be before she shot him. But what would have caused him to be dying at that young an age (around late 30s I would say)? Unless his teleporting was killing him.

This is something else that Helen must not be able to forgive herself for. It is because of her that he is still alive and killing. Because when he was injected with the source blood, his gift was teleportation, the only reason he is still alive today is because she gave him her blood. At least that is what I am thinking.

I think

Spoiler:

The creature makes him sick. And was killing me, she gives him the blood and the creature grows stronger. The Ripper is born, she finds out its him, shoots him e disappears for a bit.
Comes back (PM scene) and is a bit more calm, maybe disposing of the bodies but still killing

[Artie]

This is a good point, but the real Jack the Ripper was never identified, so we have no real way of knowing when he was born.

Yes, but John Druitt was a real person and a real suspect in the case. We don't know if he was really the ripper, but we know when Montague John Druitt was born, who his family were, what school he went to (Winchester), that he attended New College at Oxford, that he studied law and that he also taught at a boys school part time. We know he was a big guy who was very good at cricket and that he played on his school's team, and that his alibi for one of the ripper killings was that he was playing in a game at the time and was in a public place.

So it's a decision how much we, as writers, want to use of the real person.

I did do a little research into women and medicine at the time. Frances Hoggan "was the first British woman to receive a doctorate in medicine from a university in Europe...She obtained her medical qualification from the University of Zurich in 1870, completing the six year course in three years." There were others around that time, but I am sure that just because it was allowed, didn't make it any easier. So, in 1888, approximately when they were at Oxford, it still may have been hard for her to become a doctor.

Spoiler:

Even the Prime Minister couldn't quite wrap his head around the fact that she was a doctor. So, sometime before 1910, she had officially become a doctor.

I am so not able to focus right now, so I am sorry if it doesn't make much sense.

My grandmother wanted to study medicine when she graduated in 1913, and she could not find an American university that would admit her in a pre med program on an equal footing with men except for Tulane in New Orleans, which she couldn't afford, so she became a teacher instead. The European universities did better, and some American schools permitted women to audit classes earlier -- which was what Helen did at first, according to what John tells Ashley in The Five. It makes sense that she actually took her degree between 1900 and 1910, twenty years after she first audited classes.