Sanctuary Discussion (Spoilers for the most recent episode)

[EvenstarSRV]

Oh I think it's almost entirely self-imposed. Mostly as a means of protecting herself. To live as long as she's lived and have had to watch people come into and out of her life...how could one become emotionally invested in them too deeply, knowing that she would eventually outlive them all? Which makes her decision to bring Ashley to term a very interesting one, when all is said and done. Her line about not being able to stand the loneliness any longer...speaks to just how isolated she's been, despite the Gershwins and the Beatles and the Einsteins and the people who she's encountered thru those long years. She's *never* emotionally opened herself to them--she can't have. But yet she risks it, finally, to have Ashley. With no guarantee that Ashley will inherit her own longevity.

And don't forget that Sanctuary isn't just a place for abnormals...it's Helen's own protection against getting too close to the rest of the world as well.

Well said, I think Helen does, in a way, cling to the protection of the Sanctuary. I think Watson sort of alluded to that in Revelations, lamenting that Helen rarely comes to visit him in England, which was rather odd considering how close those two seemed to be.

If this were reality, it'd be highly unlikely Ashley would have inherited any of Helen's abnormality. TMI:

Spoiler:

A woman's ova are produced while she's still a fetus and exist intact within her yet more-or-less separate from her until they're matured and released when she's an adult. Which means they would almost certainly not have been affected by the Source Blood. And as maternal and fetal blood streams do not actually mingle across the placental barrier, it's unlikely she was exposed that way.

So any chance of Ashley's being an abnormal comes almost entirely through her being John Druitt's daughter rather than Helen Magnus's.

A bit more TMI:

Spoiler:

But even though maternal and fetal blood rarely mingle, materials are transferred between the blood circulations, gases, nutrients, steroids, antibodies, even some proteins as well as certain drugs. If there was a protein or hormone in the Source blood that gave it its unique properties, I think it could have potentially crossed the placental barrier.

Speaking of which (spoilers for Rev):

Spoiler:

It will be very interesting to see how the new season plays out. Because we know Helen feels guilty for having failed to stop John back during the Ripper murders, and has been trying to atone for that for years. If we assume (and I think we safely can) that part of that was allowing her emotional involvement to get in the way of her rational mind, which would further explain some of her emotional aloofness since then, and the next decision we know she made which was emotional rather than rational was Ashley (cause let's face it, when you can have your pick of all kinds of talented and gifted men to be the father of your child and you pick Jack the Ripper...), and if Ashley's 'going bad' leads to long term problems, renewed guilt over having, once again, caused problems by allowing her emotions to ecclipse her reason could very easily cause Helen to withdraw even further into herself.

And that's a bit of a run-on, but it's late here and I don't care ...

I really like your run-ons, and this one makes a lot of sense to me.

[Tracy Jane]

[QUOTE=JenniferJF;9818624]If this were reality, it'd be highly unlikely Ashley would have inherited any of Helen's abnormality. TMI:

Spoiler:

[COLOR="indigo"]A woman's ova are produced while she's still a fetus and exist intact within her yet more-or-less separate from her until they're matured and released when she's an adult. Which means they would almost certainly not have been affected by the Source Blood. And as maternal and fetal blood streams do not actually mingle across the placental barrier, it's unlikely she was exposed that way.

So any chance of Ashley's being an abnormal comes almost entirely through her being John Druitt's daughter rather than Helen Magnus's.

Actually, this is quite funny that the topic came up, seeing as we had a similar discussion at Lolly's house last night (although we were discussing - for reasons known only to a Trollop and a Victorian Historian who had each drunk 5 mugs of weapons grade coffee - the prospect of writing a pregnancy into Sanctuary)

Spoiler:

See, I was arguing that it would be very difficult to write a pregnancy in for Helen without it being "one step too far" in terms of suspending belief...

Anyway, two comments came up. The first was the old myth that the human body regenerates every seven years. Actually, if you look at carbon traces in the cells, you can see that some tissue, such as intestinal, is more like 15 years old, but yes, there is complete regeneration there. We got into a spinoff conversation about whether that included the ova or not... but we also started theorising on Helen's longevity (spoilers for another tangent)

Spoiler:

There are a couple of ways in which Helen's longevity could work. You see, the reason we age (apparenty... according to Lolly's husband who is a scientist, but I'm not sure) is that as we regenerate, we start getting "short circuits" and that is what ages us. One theory is that Helen's body is retaining the genetic information as she regenerates, which is why she's aging more slowly - less "lost" information.

The second theory was apparently that the regeneration process had slowed from 15 years to, say 30 or 50 - tying into our conversation about pregnancy because if the metabolism etc all slowed like that then maybe eggs were only released once every few months instead of every month, meaning she'd still be fertile....

Third theory was "stasis" which was a little too mind bendy

Anyway, we were chatting about this regeneration thing and the idea that oocytogenesis and all that took place in the womb so how would regeneration work, and we got talking about some recent research by a guy called Dr. J. Johnson who did research in 04/05 about ova production in adult mammals. Fascinating stuff. And though his research is as yet inconclusive, it does look like there is either a) some production in adult mammals or b) this regeneration.

If the regeneration did take place, this would essentially mean that Ashley could potentially have her mother's gift through genes.

On a similar but different tangent, I was chatting with another friend last night about Helen's gift. See, we were discussing the fact that John is also longlived, and even if we put that longevity down to using Helen's blood, then there's also Tesla, and James had the machine. And it seems Gregory's turned up to the party via other means as well.

Spoiler:

Anyone think that Helen might have drawn the short straw in all of this? Because "showing up to the party after 130 years" isn't seeming like all that much of a party trick anymore.

So I was chatting with my friend about a couple of things, including the potential in the idea of James' "power to raise the dead" aside becoming a reality, and the idea that vampires in legend are often attributed with the power of mind manipulation.

What if Helen's power wasn't only longevity? What if she didn't realise she had this other gift? O what if it was a "gift" that was ethically unsound (like mind manipulation). Would she have shared it with the Five, knowing that they wouldn't be able to trust her, never knowing if things were their choice or hers.

Could such a gift potentially explain things like how she was so influential in politics and requested at important meetings and treaty signings? Could that be why she has no trouble in talking protégés into working with her, why so many abnormals agree to come to the Sanctuary?

Could Ashley have inherited that... is that why it was so easy for Ashley to talk Mom into letting her go to the Cabal (big gaping plot hole!)? And what if it was Ashley who "outed" Helen's power? What implications would that have on Helen's relationships.

Anyway, all highly unlikely, but it's fun to speculate.

[AstraPerAspera]

On a similar but different tangent, I was chatting with another friend last night about Helen's gift. See, we were discussing the fact that John is also longlived, and even if we put that longevity down to using Helen's blood, then there's also Tesla, and James had the machine. And it seems Gregory's turned up to the party via other means as well.

Spoiler:

Anyone think that Helen might have drawn the short straw in all of this? Because "showing up to the party after 130 years" isn't seeming like all that much of a party trick anymore.

So I was chatting with my friend about a couple of things, including the potential in the idea of James' "power to raise the dead" aside becoming a reality, and the idea that vampires in legend are often attributed with the power of mind manipulation.

What if Helen's power wasn't only longevity? What if she didn't realise she had this other gift? O what if it was a "gift" that was ethically unsound (like mind manipulation). Would she have shared it with the Five, knowing that they wouldn't be able to trust her, never knowing if things were their choice or hers.

Could such a gift potentially explain things like how she was so influential in politics and requested at important meetings and treaty signings? Could that be why she has no trouble in talking protégés into working with her, why so many abnormals agree to come to the Sanctuary?

Could Ashley have inherited that... is that why it was so easy for Ashley to talk Mom into letting her go to the Cabal (big gaping plot hole!)? And what if it was Ashley who "outed" Helen's power? What implications would that have on Helen's relationships.

Anyway, all highly unlikely, but it's fun to speculate.

Hmmm. Interesting theory. As I was watching Warriors yesterday I did find myself wondering a bit about Gregory. There was a flashback scene

Spoiler:

which, I thought, showed him coming out of some sort of stasis...either covered in ice or in some kind of thick crusty residue, which led me to think that the Cabal had found him either frozen or encased in some sort of substance. Helen said he disappeared on a trip to Mecca, so it's difficult to say. Perhaps some abnormal wrapped him in some sort of cocoon and he's been in suspended animation for all these years...

But, I, personally, tend to think that Helen's gift of longevity tends to be her only gift. With the exception of Tesla, none of the others have lasted that long without some sort of other assistance...as you said, James with the machine, John with Helen's own blood. Griffen lived probably longer than a normal human should, but even he died at what is presumed to be about the age of 100 or so...rare, but not unheard of (my husband's grandmother is 101....). So I tend to think that Helen's propensity for influence on others is two-fold...one is that, if you recall, she points out that a lot of well-known historical people were, actually, abnormals--so her recognition of their "gifts" would have naturally allowed her access to them. And the other reason is, simply, her experience over several lifetimes which tend to give her, I think, unique insights into human nature and the ebb and flow of history.

But in any case, I have a feeling S2 will both shed some light and simultaneously raise even more questions. Giving us all lots of food for thought and discussion.

[JenniferJF]

Rev:[spoiler]

Could Ashley have inherited that... is that why it was so easy for Ashley to talk Mom into letting her go to the Cabal (big gaping plot hole!)?

I don't think Ashley's talking Helen into letting her attack the Cabal was a plot hole. I think it was one of those cases where something seemingly unlikely and out-of-character actually illuminates something specific about the characters at that point. By Rev, Ashley and Helen are a bit out of sync emotionally - Ashley almost desperate and panicking in her desire to keep them from going after the Source blood and Helen seeming to sense something is wrong and wanting to reach out to Ashley but not really knowing how or where gives in rather than argue and doesn't take the time to see how distraught Ashley is and wonder at why that is.

Remember, it was theoretically just one little base among many of the cabal. No one could know it was actually a trap, and Ashley does do that sort of thing fairly regularly. So it wasn't so far outside the bounds of what Ashley woudl normally do. Just close enough that, given everything else going on, Helen was in a state to be easily convinced.

[Inward Wind]

Wow! Interesting info regarding how traits might or might not have been passed on to Ashley. I have to admit though, after reading through the previous posts, my head hurts! I'm not even going to make an attempt to pretend to know what I am talking about when it comes to that aspect of the show...it reminds me of college biology class, which we won't discuss what I got for a final grade in there. We'll just say I'm very happy that I passed .

I do have a couple of questions that I am still trying to figure out. How is it that Helen can live for a long time, but can still be killed by other means ie., shot, stabbed, diseases, etc? Seems like her body should be able to fix itself when physical things happen to her. Maybe the answer was in the previous posts, but you'll have to dumb it down for me a bit.

Second, if it's not a matter of not being able to be killed but just living longer, won't it take quite a few years before we woud be able to tell if Ashley has inherited Helen's gift? Or, at the other end of that theory, wouldn't she have already been showing signs since birth if she had inherited it?

Last note. When I commented earlier about laughing at Helen's comment about being cold, I wasn't meaning ha, ha it's funny she has put herself in that position. But, more, it's funny that she would admit that people think that about her. She seems to me the type that wouldn't really care what others think.

[AstraPerAspera]

Wow! Interesting info regarding how traits might or might not have been passed on to Ashley. I have to admit though, after reading through the previous posts, my head hurts! I'm not even going to make an attempt to pretend to know what I am talking about when it comes to that aspect of the show...it reminds me of college biology class, which we won't discuss what I got for a final grade in there. We'll just say I'm very happy that I passed .

I do have a couple of questions that I am still trying to figure out. How is it that Helen can live for a long time, but can still be killed by other means ie., shot, stabbed, diseases, etc? Seems like her body should be able to fix itself when physical things happen to her. Maybe the answer was in the previous posts, but you'll have to dumb it down for me a bit.

Second, if it's not a matter of not being able to be killed but just living longer, won't it take quite a few years before we woud be able to tell if Ashley has inherited Helen's gift? Or, at the other end of that theory, wouldn't she have already been showing signs since birth if she had inherited it?

Last note. When I commented earlier about laughing at Helen's comment about being cold, I wasn't meaning ha, ha it's funny she has put herself in that position. But, more, it's funny that she would admit that people think that about her. She seems to me the type that wouldn't really care what others think.

Well, far be it from me to claim expertise, but I think there's a difference between absolute immortality and longevity. The former is an absolute inability to die, and I don't see that with any of The Five. Not even Tesla, since, IIRC, doesn't he talk about the ancestral vampires being hunted down and killed? So...despite his rather unique ability to heal himself (impaled on a wall..?? Gutted by John...???), there is no question, I think, that it is possible to kill him in some manner.

As for Helen, I think there is some indication that she does age...just...very...slowly. And I don't know enough about the science of it all to judge the various theories on how that must be. I think it's one of those things we must just accept as a given if we're going to play in the world where Sanctuary exists. That willing suspension of disbelief, if you will. However, even if Helen does possess some sort of regenerative ability as part of what bestows upon her her long life, lacking the purer form of vampire DNA that Tesla has, I think she would most definitely be susceptible to sudden and serious injuries (as well as, say...loss of oxygen )and other things that kill us mere mortals as well. Over time, I think her body could repair damage; but subjected to severe trauma, I think she would be as vulnerable as anyone.

Also...I too, had wondered whether Ashley shouldn't have already manifested some element of Helen's gift if she indeed had it. Which is part of what makes me suspect she hasn't. And even if it were something that wouldn't have shown up as a child, surely by puberty it would have kicked in. But...that's just speculation on my part as well. This is scifi, after all. There are things out there that defy our ability to comprehend.

[kes]

Wow! Interesting info regarding how traits might or might not have been passed on to Ashley. I have to admit though, after reading through the previous posts, my head hurts! I'm not even going to make an attempt to pretend to know what I am talking about when it comes to that aspect of the show...it reminds me of college biology class, which we won't discuss what I got for a final grade in there. We'll just say I'm very happy that I passed .

I do have a couple of questions that I am still trying to figure out. How is it that Helen can live for a long time, but can still be killed by other means ie., shot, stabbed, diseases, etc? Seems like her body should be able to fix itself when physical things happen to her. Maybe the answer was in the previous posts, but you'll have to dumb it down for me a bit.

Second, if it's not a matter of not being able to be killed but just living longer, won't it take quite a few years before we woud be able to tell if Ashley has inherited Helen's gift? Or, at the other end of that theory, wouldn't she have already been showing signs since birth if she had inherited it?

Last note. When I commented earlier about laughing at Helen's comment about being cold, I wasn't meaning ha, ha it's funny she has put herself in that position. But, more, it's funny that she would admit that people think that about her. She seems to me the type that wouldn't really care what others think.

She says in rev. pt 1 ,when she wants to inject herself with Biggie's blood, that her own blood would keep her alive. So I'm guessing she doesnt get sick. Or catch diseases. Even if she did her blood would heal her. But a fatal wound would kill her. Or lack of oxigen like in Requiem.
Cos its physical damage. So even if she might heal a little better, cos lets say, she wouldnt get an infection (that's the worst) she might stil die.

[kes]

Well, far be it from me to claim expertise, but I think there's a difference between absolute immortality and longevity. The former is an absolute inability to die, and I don't see that with any of The Five. Not even Tesla, since, IIRC, doesn't he talk about the ancestral vampires being hunted down and killed? So...despite his rather unique ability to heal himself (impaled on a wall..?? Gutted by John...???), there is no question, I think, that it is possible to kill him in some manner.

As for Helen, I think there is some indication that she does age...just...very...slowly. And I don't know enough about the science of it all to judge the various theories on how that must be. I think it's one of those things we must just accept as a given if we're going to play in the world where Sanctuary exists. That willing suspension of disbelief, if you will. However, even if Helen does possess some sort of regenerative ability as part of what bestows upon her her long life, lacking the purer form of vampire DNA that Tesla has, I think she would most definitely be susceptible to sudden and serious injuries (as well as, say...loss of oxygen )and other things that kill us mere mortals as well. Over time, I think her body could repair damage; but subjected to severe trauma, I think she would be as vulnerable as anyone.

Totally agree. It could be as simple as taking his head off. I imagen it must be quite difficult to grow a new one LOL

Also...I too, had wondered whether Ashley shouldn't have already manifested some element of Helen's gift if she indeed had it. Which is part of what makes me suspect she hasn't. And even if it were something that wouldn't have shown up as a child, surely by puberty it would have kicked in. But...that's just speculation on my part as well. This is scifi, after all. There are things out there that defy our ability to comprehend.

Well usually stories that involve powers they came out at puberty. Highten emotions and all. But so far we've seen, like in Henry, show up at a later stage. unless we consider Henry a different specie.not human.

[JenniferJF]

it's funny that she would admit that people think that about her. She seems to me the type that wouldn't really care what others think.

I think that comment, as well as some she makes in Requiem, indicate it's not so much she doesn't care as that she doesn't let on that she cares. And on those occasions we've seen chinks in that armor, as it were, which indicate she does in fact care and notice.

[EvenstarSRV]

As for Helen, I think there is some indication that she does age...just...very...slowly. And I don't know enough about the science of it all to judge the various theories on how that must be. I think it's one of those things we must just accept as a given if we're going to play in the world where Sanctuary exists. That willing suspension of disbelief, if you will. However, even if Helen does possess some sort of regenerative ability as part of what bestows upon her her long life, lacking the purer form of vampire DNA that Tesla has, I think she would most definitely be susceptible to sudden and serious injuries (as well as, say...loss of oxygen )and other things that kill us mere mortals as well. Over time, I think her body could repair damage; but subjected to severe trauma, I think she would be as vulnerable as anyone.

I'm no expert either, but I have some training in the subject and I'm leaning toward regenerating telomeres as perhaps a reason for Helen's longevity.

Telomeres are the extra DNA segments at the end of our chromosomes and every time DNA replicates when a cell divides, it loses a bit of that extra DNA. This is essentially why we age because eventually we run out of telomeres and start losing parts of genes and organs start to become impaired.

My theory is that the Source blood allows Helen to sort of rebuild these telomeres to an extent, so while she still ages, she does so more slowly. But this would only give her longevity, not immortality, so she'd be still vulnerable to trauma and disease, though perhaps able to recover from them faster.

[Tracy Jane]

Hmmm. Interesting theory. As I was watching Warriors yesterday I did find myself wondering a bit about Gregory. There was a flashback scene

Spoiler:

which, I thought, showed him coming out of some sort of stasis...either covered in ice or in some kind of thick crusty residue, which led me to think that the Cabal had found him either frozen or encased in some sort of substance. Helen said he disappeared on a trip to Mecca, so it's difficult to say. Perhaps some abnormal wrapped him in some sort of cocoon and he's been in suspended animation for all these years...

But, I, personally, tend to think that Helen's gift of longevity tends to be her only gift. With the exception of Tesla, none of the others have lasted that long without some sort of other assistance...as you said, James with the machine, John with Helen's own blood. Griffen lived probably longer than a normal human should, but even he died at what is presumed to be about the age of 100 or so...rare, but not unheard of (my husband's grandmother is 101....). So I tend to think that Helen's propensity for influence on others is two-fold...one is that, if you recall, she points out that a lot of well-known historical people were, actually, abnormals--so her recognition of their "gifts" would have naturally allowed her access to them. And the other reason is, simply, her experience over several lifetimes which tend to give her, I think, unique insights into human nature and the ebb and flow of history.

But in any case, I have a feeling S2 will both shed some light and simultaneously raise even more questions. Giving us all lots of food for thought and discussion.

The Gregory thing

Spoiler:

I totally understand that he was cryogenically frozen and all that. But even so, it sort of negates Helen being "special" to an extent

I thought her only gift was longevity as well. At least, I assumed it was. But with 4 of the five being around.... I don't know, it almost makes the gift seem rather inane. As much as I love the whole plot of The Five, it just... makes Helen a little less special.

Then again, if could really give her that drive to push herself, to prove her worth in other ways. And it would be interesting to look back and see how she felt about it all. You know, she mentions to James about how his gift was much more profound..... I think it would be a very interesting insight, to explore her feelings towards her own gift and that of the others.

[jckfan55]

Last note. When I commented earlier about laughing at Helen's comment about being cold, I wasn't meaning ha, ha it's funny she has put herself in that position. But, more, it's funny that she would admit that people think that about her. She seems to me the type that wouldn't really care what others think.

I think what AstraPerAspera said about her self imposed isolation as a protective measure is part of why she knows she may be seen as cold. I also think the consequences of the longevity for her personally are partly what make her so fascinating.

As for other gifts--I would agree that longevity (not immortality) seems to be her gift. Love the telomere explanation Evenstar. And of course Helen was born with intense curiosity and intellect, nurtured by her father. (And I hope we see the role her mom played in her formative years too.)

[Skydiver]

i would think withdrawing isn't just emotional protection, it's protection of the sanctuary. she literally can't stay anywhere too long, or someone will notice that she's not aging and the gig will be up.

she's had to keep it low key and off the radar. it's the only way she can survive

[majorsal]

The Gregory thing

Spoiler:

I totally understand that he was cryogenically frozen and all that. But even so, it sort of negates Helen being "special" to an extent

I thought her only gift was longevity as well. At least, I assumed it was. But with 4 of the five being around.... I don't know, it almost makes the gift seem rather inane. As much as I love the whole plot of The Five, it just... makes Helen a little less special.

Then again, if could really give her that drive to push herself, to prove her worth in other ways. And it would be interesting to look back and see how she felt about it all. You know, she mentions to James about how his gift was much more profound..... I think it would be a very interesting insight, to explore her feelings towards her own gift and that of the others.

i feel gregory still being alive negates some of helen's specialness too. like what was said, everyone else that have lived as long as helen had certain things done to make it happen, where with helen is came naturally.

i hope it's revealed that gregory is a clone.

but i don't get that negating thing with the other four of 'the five' group.

[majorsal]

I also think the consequences of the longevity for her personally are partly what make her so fascinating.

i feel that too. it makes her a bit damaged, which i find interesting.