Baelor (109)

[MattSilver 3k]

Losing Sean Bean is sad but he is not the main character.

It's very easy to say that in an ensemble show based off a book with multiple POVs, but to a lot of people, he will be the main character - his name is first in the credits, after all.

And now I just realised Michelle Fairley's got that spot now. Hey, good for her.

[Cold Fuzz]

Indeed, good post. While it certainly didn't ruin this episode, in seasons 2 and 3 when the battles become crucial they cannot do it again, because they are crucial to the plot and it will ruin the series. And having now watched it on Sky Atlantic in glorious 50 inch hd, rather than on a crappy internet player, more than ever I'm convinced this wasn't a question of budget. The episode was grand in almost every way. The Twins, the scenery round the Drothraki camp, the vast field of dead on the battlefield. Hell you could even see hundreds of troops in the distance moving across the bridge at the twins and at the Lannister camp. So I'm left with 3 options. Option 1, the one I'm hoping is true, is that we then have scenes of fighting in episode 10, something like Jaime having a dream of the battle, before being awakened by Cat whose come to interrogate him. Probably not very likely, but I hold out hope, I remember over at Winter is Coming people complaining that the massacre of the Stark guards in episode 7 wasn't long enough. Low and behold episode 8 opened with a long sequence of Stark retainers being killed. Probably not that likely, but as I say I can still hope. Probably what actually happened is either option 2, they ran out of time, or option 3, someone had a brain fart and they went a little too far and followed the book a bit closer than was wise, forgetting that they must show not tell, and while the core of the book should and must remain in the series, little deviations or doing things in slightly different ways don't hurt and can be better when you have to deal with a visual medium of storytelling.

Right now, I'm leaning towards option 3. I think they were a little too true to the book as well. Telling about it in the book is one thing. But not showing us on the screen is a big thing. Like you, I'm also holding out hope for a big open battle in the final episode. Titled "Fire and Blood" hopefully the title delivers.

Frankly the whole lack of fighting because of lack of budget baffles me, they were both incredibly easier to film, even with minimum budget. One has most of the fights in the woods, so things are obscured, the other could have easily been shot from Tyrion's perspective, down low, him trying to see what's going on but failing, so there's no need for masses of extras. And to be honest the whole running out of time thing doesn't hold much sway. The previous ep ran a few minutes longer, easily enough time to fit in a bit of battle.

I'm not sure how big the budget was but if HBO could afford the elaborate fighting sequences for The Pacific, especially that harrowing crossing of the Peleliu Airfield, they surely could afford to have people skewering each other with spears and swords.

So at this point it seems to be a tptb screw up. At this point it doesn't matter, the episode was still fantastic and not at all ruined by this. But if this was a screw up on their part I hope they learn something through the reactions and improve on it in season 2, where the battles really will matter. .

Not showing us Robb's victory was a little disappointing but not too big. However, not showing certain key decisive battles in the future would be very disappointing for me.

Book spoilers for the uninitiated.

Spoiler:

Oxcross was a biggie for Robb, especially with something like 10,000 Lannister men being annihilated. Dany's startling seizure of Astapor is something I'd like to see but I understand if time & budget constraints make it a not-so-big priority. The two most important ones though are that battle at Castle Black's doorstep and the harrowing Battle of the Blackwater. Those need to be seen, not told about.

[starg8fans]

Anybody who has watched 24 knows what it's like to have a show where no regular character is safe. And I for one like it. It makes scenes where the leads get into danger so much more believable. In most shows, when the hero gets into mortal peril my reaction is usually not so much 'OMG he's gonna DIE!' but 'How on earth will they find a twist to get him out of THAT?'

I have book 1-4 sitting on my shelf, but I'm not opening the first one until the season's over. I enjoy approaching these episodes with a clean slate, so I was completely FLOORED by Ned's execution. And I found it all the more painful that it came so quickly after he caved and betrayed himself and his high ideals by suppressing the truth about Joffrey's heritage - and as it turns out, all for nothing.

Being a Jason Momoa fangirl myself, the fact that he was in this show played a big part in my decision to watch it. Since I have no access to American TV channels I have to find *cough* creative ways to watch the programs I like, so I'm very selective which shows I invest in. As far as GoT is concerned, I cannot agree more that the story is the star and the main character. I knew from the start that Drogo wouldn't be around indefinitely, but by now neither Jason's nor any other actor's presence or absence would make a bit of difference to my enjoyment of this wonderful tale. It's so interesting to see the flow of characters coming and going, making the story so much more epic and multi-faceted. I sure hope we'll get to see all the books in this format, and I'm also looking forward to getting the whole scope from the books - after the respective seasons have aired.

Just one question - what does the title of this episode refer to? I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere, but I must have missed it.

[Cold Fuzz]

Just one question - what does the title of this episode refer to? I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere, but I must have missed it.

The episode name "Baelor" refers to two things: the Great Sept of Baelor, the religious site where Ned is executed. Also, when Ned says "Baelor" to Yoren, he's referring to Arya's location underneath the statue of Baelor Targaryen where he sees her watching.

[starg8fans]

The episode name "Baelor" refers to two things: the Great Sept of Baelor, the religious site where Ned is executed. Also, when Ned says "Baelor" to Yoren, he's referring to Arya's location underneath the statue of Baelor Targaryen where he sees her watching.

Ah, okay, thanks for explaining that. I had no idea that it was a religious site, I had just assumed it was some kind of market square or something.

[magictrick]

Anybody who has watched 24 knows what it's like to have a show where no regular character is safe. And I for one like it. It makes scenes where the leads get into danger so much more believable. In most shows, when the hero gets into mortal peril my reaction is usually not so much 'OMG he's gonna DIE!' but 'How on earth will they find a twist to get him out of THAT?'

The only difference is that on 24 you knew the main character would never get killed off. In GoT there really isn't one main character, more like a handful. But I see what you mean regarding the 'no one is safe' mentality that both shows have. Although, I think some of the deaths on 24 were what was referred to earlier in this thread as shock value.

[gotthammer]

Ah, okay, thanks for explaining that. I had no idea that it was a religious site, I had just assumed it was some kind of market square or something.

As with people, locations in GoT really should have those things w/ subtitles in them (like in some WW2 movies, where one could probably get something like: Generalfeldmarschall Erich von Manstein, Commander of Army Group South displayed under the guy while he's in focus.)
Something like:
for people: Tyrion Lannister (in smaller letters: called 'The Imp', son of Tywin, Lord of House Lannister), or Jon Snow (in smaller letters: bastard of Stark and member of the Night's Watch...or something like that)
for places: The Twins (in smaller letters: seat of House Frey), or The Sept of Baelor (in smaller letters: holiest Sept of the Faith of the Seven, or something like that)

[g.o.d]

actually, I'm glad they didn't spend 5-10 minutes for a single battle. I love this show beacuse of its characters not battles. I know they're very important, but more of chacters and less to none battle is good for me

[Lahela]

actually, I'm glad they didn't spend 5-10 minutes for a single battle. I love this show beacuse of its characters not battles. I know they're very important, but more of chacters and less to none battle is good for me

I'm not a fan of gore so I don't mind not seeing extended battles scenes, but in this particular case, I would have been happy with just one minute - a few lightening quick shots showing a couple of significant things.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

actually, I'm glad they didn't spend 5-10 minutes for a single battle. I love this show beacuse of its characters not battles. I know they're very important, but more of chacters and less to none battle is good for me

It will become a major problem for the show in season 2 and 3 if they do not show the battles. The battles are plot critical, and have actions that change and define characters. Neither are they glossed over in the books, in book 2 one battle takes up 6 or 7 chapters describing it and the aftermath. That's the equivalent of about an episode's worth of material, at their current pace.

One of the themes of the books, and now the show, is everything building up and up, to this cataclysmic event. In the first book and first season, it's the death of Ned and the realm falling into war. In the second book, things have moved passed court intrigues, the book is about a realm in the middle of a civil war. And much of the book is dedicated to building up to this massive climatic battle, as armies manoeuvre and alliances are forged.

In this first season, much of the later episodes are dedicated to the Lannisters and Starks gearing up for war, the tension is reached up as they prepare for battle, then nothing. It feels very dissatisfying not to have the tension released. GRRM in the novels certainly released this because he describes some of the fighting. Not all of it, but we get to see some from the point of view of Tyrion. I certainly expected the show to follow suit. I did not expect something like Helm's Deep, but while the characters are the most important thing, in order for us to be able to comprehend what they are going through, we actually have to see some of what they are going through. And what they are going through, now and for the next few seasons, is a massive war.

The show used Ned's death as a crutch, knowing, since it's such a bold move, this would be the true climax of the episode, and the part everybody would remember and talk about. In season 2 they won't have that luxury, while there will be shocking deaths, the climax is this civil war coming to a head. If they fail to portray the battles, not only will it become deeply anticlimactic, characters and their arcs will be affected as well.

In the second book for example a major character is deeply affected by the horrors of battle. Because of the hell he's been through, the horrible things he's seen and done, what he does and how he act changes. If we can't see at least some of what he's seen and gone through, how can we understand his character?

[magictrick]

In the second book for example a major character is deeply affected by the horrors of battle. Because of the hell he's been through, the horrible things he's seen and done, what he does and how he act changes. If we can't see at least some of what he's seen and gone through, how can we understand his character?

I don't think they will gloss over that battle. The battle in this episode was not as pivotal, only the result was. I think this is the distinction between this one and the future battles to come. There is indeed a huge battle in the 2nd book which cannot be overlooked, and I expect they will focus on it, as character developments occur during the fight.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I don't think they will gloss over that battle. The battle in this episode was not as pivotal, only the result was. I think this is the distinction between this one and the future battles to come. There is indeed a huge battle in the 2nd book which cannot be overlooked, and I expect they will focus on it, as character developments occur during the fight.

Apparently GRRM is writing that episode for season 2, and the whole episode will be devoted to it. Still they need to up their game. This is an epic battle, which they have to do on a tv budget. And considering thus far their solution to battles has been to skip over them (which is baffling in itself, because either could have been filmed very cheaply) then it does raise a few questions. I happy that GRRM is writing the ep, because while David Benioff and D.B Weiss have handled almost every other aspect of this adaptation perfectly, the lack of any payoff in episode 9 was a misfire by them.

[gotthammer]

Yeah. Misfire indeed.

It sometimes feels that they put in some scenes as 'padding' (the rather long 'sexy stuff' come to mind) to avoid showing stuff that'll cost 'em, like a longer Hand's Tournament or the battles. *shrugs*
Hopefully they 'fix' that next season. I love the show, for the most part, but this episode just felt 'rushed' for the lack of battles (and the 'padding'. Don't get me wrong: I liked the Tyrion, Shae and Bronn scenes...but they did feel like 'too long' in relation to what could have been shown).

TL;DR: I'd like to see battles next season (and the Ironborn at sea, of course ).

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Yeah. Misfire indeed.

It sometimes feels that they put in some scenes as 'padding' (the rather long 'sexy stuff' come to mind) to avoid showing stuff that'll cost 'em, like a longer Hand's Tournament or the battles. *shrugs*
Hopefully they 'fix' that next season. I love the show, for the most part, but this episode just felt 'rushed' for the lack of battles (and the 'padding'. Don't get me wrong: I liked the Tyrion, Shae and Bronn scenes...but they did feel like 'too long' in relation to what could have been shown).

TL;DR: I'd like to see battles next season (and the Ironborn at sea, of course ).

I thought the Shae stuff was very well done, she is an important character, and it sheds much more light on Tyrion. I also don't agree that the Tournament was too short. In a perfect world GOT would have a $300 million per season budget, and as many episodes as it required to tell the story, we'd see it, plus all the battles in full glory, including the ones that are only alluded to, both in the show and the book, such as Jaime at Riverrun.

However, this is the real world and even high budget, wonderful adaptations like Game of Thrones have to make comprises. The Tournament worked, we saw a couple of Jousts and the fight between the Mountain and the Hound. It gave as a sense of what it was like, even if they could not have afforded or had the time to show the whole thing.

They should have done a similar thing with the battles or one of them, show a small bit of it, to give a taste, or a sense of what went down. Didn't have to be something epic, just show Jaime Lannister trying to fight off his attackers, could have done on the same scale as the hill tribe fight back in episode 5, with about the same number of people, while the rest of the battle is obscured by the woods. It certainly wasn't a lack of budget, the show looks big, and a fight with maybe 20 or 30 extras is hardly going to break the bank. Nor was there a lack of time, it didn't need to be a long scene, just a couple of minutes, which would have brought the running time of the episode to about the same as last weeks. But instead we seem to have a tptb deliberate decision not to show any of the fighting, which I believe is a mistake, and a blemish on what was otherwise a great episode.

Thus far though the show has been fantastic on the whole, and I have enough faith that probably episode 10 and season 2 will make me eat my words.

[dragongirl]

well it has been pointed out that this show had a smaller budget than typical HBO shows now that they see how popular it is the number are steady not taking the big drop that most do. Hopefully HBO gives them a bigger budget than they did for Season 1 and we can get more of the battles that have been missed so far