The Rings of Akhaten (3308/708)

[aretood2]

Because, without Hitler's rise to power and engagement in atrocities - Modern Earth would be very different. In fact I'd go so far as to say that without Hitler as an adversary to unite against. Europe would not be as peaceful as it is now, America would likely not be a super power, and Britain would have likely not let go of the empire quite so gracefully. As for how Russia would have developed... well... Point is, as long as the Doctor travels with human companions from Earth, he cannot muck up Earth's key events otherwise he'll screw up the world his companions come from.

So allowing a despot to rule for the greater good. How was the greater good served in this episode? Sure they are free from fear...but now they can fear the demise of their civilization and certain death by a multitude of inevitable forces brought upon by the disappearance of what I and another mentioned earlier.

That's probably why they introduced the 'fixed points in time' concept, to explain why the Doctor doesn't go round saving everybody and sanitising history - sometimes he can because time is in flux, sometimes he is all too aware that however much he might want to change events, too much hinges on them. I suppose after twelve hundred years or more of phone box travel you just learn to accept what you cannot change for fear of ripping the universe apart or collapsing time in on itself.

A better reason would be that he does things based on emotions and selfishness as opposed to that. Sure, he knows about the fixed points in time, and has learned to respect that. It's one thing to save a few children who accidentally travel through a box into a world of living trees, another to destroy a civilization and the prospects of life of those who live in said civilization.

I think so. And we've seen what happens, if he doesn't accept the fact, he can't help everytime, in Waters of Mars. One more reason, why he didn't stop Hitler might be, that he knows he got stoped by the humans themselfes. They did't need the Doctor in the end, (thogh of course he could have save millions).
Anyway, changing the past is always a tricky thing in timetravel storys, a the main reason it's more than unlikely that it will ever be possible.

And one more thing: As far as I can see, the Doctor never gos like: "ohm which Planet could I safe today? Which part of history has to change." In fact, he only interfers if something's not happening acording to history, as he knows it. So he can't act against his knowledge, what's supposed to happen. ANd if he does things usualy get worse.

That's why I liked the end of Waters of Mars. That's what 10 had to deal with, and that's what I would have prefered his speech to center on. His choices, and regrets. The Timewar, how that left 9 all messed up, 10's many troubles and mistakes, and now 11 could have made some mention on how he has countless mistakes and makes decisions few ever have to. He's suffered through enough personal pain (especially emphasized in 10) to have more sentimental value and stories than everyone in Akhaten's civilization. Not godlike experience, knowledge, and secrets.

[Purple Glow]

The only problem is that he did leave Hitler in a closet so he could kill millions...that's what should be bothering him. Not nonsensical secrets. How does he deal with picking who and where and when to interfere with? Who lives and who dies? Who to save? There's enough dictators and despots in Earth's history, throw in the galaxy, the galaxy cluster, the supercluster...and you have an infinitum of dictators. So what makes him pick to ignore one and not ignore the other? If he's seen the end of time and the beginning of the universe and knows magical secrets, I hardly doubt that it would be beyond his capability to fight each and every dictator.

That, in my opinion, would be a lot more logical source of the tears he had in this episode.

How do you know the Doctor didn't go back in time and kill someone who would have been FAR FAR worse than Hitler during WW2? Maybe Hitler replaced whoever that person was, and the Doctor felt it was acceptable because, in the new timeline, Hitler loses.

[min min light]

Isn't it some kind of a sci-fi rule of thumb/paradox in general that you can't kill Hitler? You can try, but whatever you do to kill him will always end up saving him.

[P-90_177]

So allowing a despot to rule for the greater good. How was the greater good served in this episode? Sure they are free from fear...but now they can fear the demise of their civilization and certain death by a multitude of inevitable forces brought upon by the disappearance of what I and another mentioned earlier.

A better reason would be that he does things based on emotions and selfishness as opposed to that. Sure, he knows about the fixed points in time, and has learned to respect that. It's one thing to save a few children who accidentally travel through a box into a world of living trees, another to destroy a civilization and the prospects of life of those who live in said civilization.


That's why I liked the end of Waters of Mars. That's what 10 had to deal with, and that's what I would have prefered his speech to center on. His choices, and regrets. The Timewar, how that left 9 all messed up, 10's many troubles and mistakes, and now 11 could have made some mention on how he has countless mistakes and makes decisions few ever have to. He's suffered through enough personal pain (especially emphasized in 10) to have more sentimental value and stories than everyone in Akhaten's civilization. Not godlike experience, knowledge, and secrets.

11 is not like 10 in that respect. While 9 and 10 basically stuck to the rules of time set out by the Timelords because they still believed them to be relevant, 11 seems to have taken on board to a lesser degree what he realised in Waters of Mars, that is that he does have a vast amount of control over the universe and he will use it. It's one of the reasons why eleven seems to wrestle with his darker side a lot more and has less qualms about getting his hands dirty.

Your point about Hitler though is still flawed. One thing you will notice about all of The Doctor's adversaries is that they are enemies which would hopelessly outmatch our knowledge or our defences. And it is the same with alien races as well. Hitler on the other hand was a problem he knew could be dealt with by humans on their own. Yes Hitler committed evil attrocities but I'm sure in the Doctor's mind that is still a pin prick compared to what he knows the Daleks or Sontarrans get up to. In many ways what resulted because of the second world war is, as flyyboy said, very important to our development as a race. A whole generation learnt a new respect for life. Britain faced it's finest hour and won. America became a super power, and on and on we go. In fact it is esspecially crucial that those events remain as they are because it would impact on the Doctor's own history. It might even cause a paradox. He changes his own time so that he was never their to help earth in the 60's, 70's, 80's and so on.

Now on the other hand....
As I said all of the Doctor's enemies are such that if they had won then the world (or whatever world he's on) would most likely not have survived. Earth has very little means of overthrowing a dictator when said dictator can reduce the planet to molten slag (even the Slitheen).

In the case of The Rings of Akhaten it is very much his choice whether he gets involved or not. But he always will. Because maybe you're right and maybe that civilization will crumble, but those races are more likely to be able to help themselves out of that then they would have been able to defeat their God. They wouldn't have known how to defeat it. The God would have woken regardless of whether The Doctor was there or not in the end, and he tried feeding it as much as he could. He may have settled for putting it asleep but in the end he killed it, and he's happy with that too, because as I say, those races are now free and they are more likely to be able to help themselves out of that situation then they were able to deal with the God.

The only other enemies the Doctor faces are ones where his survival itself is at stake and his own sense of self preservation (and that of his companions) kicks in. This can be seen in the likes of Midnight, but even then he also has others with him to protect.

[Starfist]

I was very disappointed with this episode.
Like the previous episode it appeared to me to be rushed.

The saving grace was the music. Now I did like the music. Oh and Clara...

And maybe the Ravenwood references may lead to something we won't expect?

[Blencathra]

With regard to the discussion you have just been having. I thought you might be interested in this quote from Matt Smith

That’s what interests me about The Doctor because, actually, look at the blood on the man’s hands. 900 years, countless very selfish choices, and he’s literally blown planets up. His own race, you know, that’s all on his hands. Which is why I think he has to make silly jokes and wear a fez. Because if he didn’t, he’d hang himself.

From The Nerdist Podcast no 46.

[cosmichobo]

My thoughts...

So much set up that really just... didn't result in an engaging story.

It certainly reminded me of Gridlock, and The Beast Below, however they both evolved into actual interesting and intriguing stories. In fact, both of them wasted little time getting to the story... This one took time out to give Clara some caring scenes with the scared little girl, but did little to give us something to really engage with.

And the moment the Doctor declared that the figure in the glass box was just an alarm for something much bigger... I groaned and rolled my eyes at the tv... Up until the (seated) creature started flailing and thrashing around, I actually got excited - thinking it may in fact be Sutekh! A pyramid... People scared of the creature inside... Mummies...





Sadly of course, no... we get a frowny CGI planet... Yay...

I'm certainly still intrigued by Clara's mystery... However I'm not sure how much longer it'll hold me. I guess I can be thankful it's only a part season this year (droll).

By the time Matt was delivering his speech I'd pretty well tuned out...

[Coco Pops]

My thoughts...

So much set up that really just... didn't result in an engaging story.

It certainly reminded me of Gridlock, and The Beast Below, however they both evolved into actual interesting and intriguing stories. In fact, both of them wasted little time getting to the story... This one took time out to give Clara some caring scenes with the scared little girl, but did little to give us something to really engage with.

And the moment the Doctor declared that the figure in the glass box was just an alarm for something much bigger... I groaned and rolled my eyes at the tv... Up until the (seated) creature started flailing and thrashing around, I actually got excited - thinking it may in fact be Sutekh! A pyramid... People scared of the creature inside... Mummies...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...mmyAkhaten.jpg

http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/z...20Sutekh/6.jpg

Sadly of course, no... we get a frowny CGI planet... Yay...

I'm certainly still intrigued by Clara's mystery... However I'm not sure how much longer it'll hold me. I guess I can be thankful it's only a part season this year (droll).

By the time Matt was delivering his speech I'd pretty well tuned out...

You mean the almost obligatory "I am the Doctor, bow before me" speech :/

[stargatefan234]

For those who haven't seen these

[P-90_177]

You mean the almost obligatory "I am the Doctor, bow before me" speech :/

Damn right it's obligatory.

[Coco Pops]

Damn right it's obligatory.

It's annoying.

I thought he was trying to keep a low profile after the events with The Silence. Speaking of which I think they might be returning to finish off the exploding TARDIS arc which wasn't fully closed.

[SGalisa]

SGalisa - I like your thinking.

and I like yours too!
Also, enjoyed your topic / theory about Clara being u-know-who...

(PS-- I tried to green you, but the system wouldn't let me yet)..

[The Flyattractor]

I found it extremely refreshing to see the Doctor have a little adventure someplace for once that wasn't on earth or really had anything to do with earth or humans.

Sure the episode was kinda meh on a lot of points but it was still nace for a very much needed change of scenery.

[min min light]

Yes I did like that too now that you mention it. He really does spend way too much time in present-day London considering that he has a frakking Tardis.

[P-90_177]

It's annoying.

I thought he was trying to keep a low profile after the events with The Silence. Speaking of which I think they might be returning to finish off the exploding TARDIS arc which wasn't fully closed.

He still doesn't give a grand speech like that very often. They're very memorable but they aren't something that happens every episode.