A Good Man Goes To War (3207)

[knowles2]

[QUOTE=P-90_177;12674179]I



So now.............Questions still to be answered:

Is it in fact River/Melody in the space suit that apparently kills the Doctor?

Seem the most obvious. I believe River siad "of cause not" after firing her weapon at it. Which suggest she remembers that she existed in the suit at some point or she knows she was the person in the suit or knew enough to piece the event together.

What plans do/did the silence have for Melody?

Probably to kill the doctor as she did, out of revenge for allowing Humanity to fight back against them.

Where does the eyepatch lady come into this?

I suspect the silence is just using her. The Doctor does something in the future, which seem to turn a large part of humanity against him and what ever that event is allows the silence to lure eye patch lady into there services.

What exactly is written on The Doctors Cot?

I suspect it said Melody Pond. Which is how the Doctor made the connections that River is Amy Pond daughter before the rest of the gang was told by Song.
Which raises a bunch of questions it self.

Who is the Good man River kills?

I am not sure but I think it looking more and more like it someone we have not met yet. I would fine it a bit boring if it was Rory or the Doctor.

Will the Flesh Doctor come back?

Hope not. As it make a easy and obvious get out clause for saving the doctor. An it already been use twist as major plot points.

Could River still be The Doctor's wife?

Do not see why not. But I am suspecting if they do get married it a marriage for convenience to get out of a situation rather than a actual relationalship going on between them that leads to a marriage.

How does papa Rory feel about the Doctor kissing his daughter?

He probably relieved that at least the Doctor is not hitting on his wife.

[Blencathra]

I think that about sums up my reaction. I loved every single minute of that episode. I'm now trying to decide if this is my favourite Who episode ever. (Or it could be Blink or The Doctor's Wife...)

I loved Rory being amazing. I wonder why the Doctor got him in his roman gear. To unlock his inner gladiator skills I'm guessing. Then River breaking back into prison & ordering breakfast for her usual time. The headless monks were lovely and gruesome. That knot in the neck?! Ick! I thought Lorna Bucket was a super character and I did start to think that she may be another incarnation of River at one point. As for that reveal!! I did have an idea that was what was going to happen but the way it was done was absolutely fantastic!! The Doctor's face was priceless!!

My prediction.

Spoiler:

I don't think the little girl in the astonaut suit is River. I think the little girl is the Doctor & River's daughter.

[Admiral Mappalazarou]

Absolutely amazing episode and the revelation of River's identity was such a total shock that most definitely NOT a disappoint!

Looking forward to Autumn and getting the rest of the questions answered in the stories ahead! Cannot wait! Bring it on!

Trivia: I think this story marked the first appearance of the Mondasian Cybermen last seen in 1988's Silver Nemesis judging by the fact that they didn't display the Cybus Industries logo on their chest and that their spaceships were highly reminiscent of those used in the 1968 story The Invasion.

Yeah true, although my theory is that these Cybermen are still the remainder of those from the parallel world (mainly because of their original Cybus design compared to the designs of the original Cybermen) but maybe they found the ships/technology of their alternate 'ancestors' in the main universe and updated themselves with both. The removal of the Cybus emblem would make sense as a political thing, as it was merely the symbol of a human company and nothing of importance to them as Cybermen.

In other potentially historical news:

Spoiler:

Am I right in thinking that this episode might reveal the Doctor's actual name for the very first time ever? We don't know what it sounds like (yet), but maybe we now know what it looks like. (Assuming that the Gallifreyan writing on the cot spells out the Doctor's name and not some kind of nursery rhyme).
Maybe this is how River knows of the Doctor's name? We know that she can understand and write Gallifreyan. And since it looks like she will be spending/has spent some quality time in this cot...

Come to think about it:

Spoiler:

In SitL/FotD did the Tenth Doctor realize River had been in his cot? Or might there still be something else we're missing?

I like this sort of speculation Connecting the dots is always so fun

I think the name on the cot is River Song/Melody pond. Which is how the Doctor connected the dots that River was Amy daughter before she spelled it out to Pond. Which means the cot was never the Doctors of cause and we are left with the big question of where it came from. At least that what I reckon anyway.

Actually I'm pretty sure the Doctor read the thing Lorna made for Amy which was lying in the cot at the time, and that's what revealed to him River's identity. As for the Gallifreyan symbols - although we'll mostly likely never know what they translate as - I love the idea that it could be the Doctor's real name (as mentioned by River privately in Series 4).

Fantastic, but disappointed that the whole River thing turned out to be the most obvious solution. I kinda expected more from Moffat, something totally unpredictable and out there, but something that makes perfect sense too.

In the final moments before the reveal a number of things went through my mind, but the main one was that she could have been a regenerated version of Sexy. I was actually kind of glad when this wasn't it though to be honest because it wouldn't really make any sense if the Doctor and the TARDIS are going to (presumably) stick together until the Doctor's lives are all up (and afterwards too probably if the show is still as popular then). I was happy with the reveal though. Yeah we could have guessed it, I suppose, but I didn't. It was a surprise to me, but it makes sense and makes me look back on every scene with River in differently. Because the Doctor has a familly unit in the TARDIS now too.

What gets me is the bond between River and Amy that doesn't seem to be a maternal one, which suggests that either Amy misses out on raising River or that River is exceptionally good at deception (which I guess she does prove to be in some respect by not revealing anything up until this episode).

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I liked this episode a lot and I didnt see the twist coming at all to be honest.

Is it me or when Rory met River at the start of ep did he not know who she was?

[DigiFluid]

Wow. Thanks so much for the extremely kind endearment. Very much embarrassed now but balanced with an incredible appreciation. Cheers

Besides your encyclopedic breadth of Who knowledge, we can all count on you regularly posting Whoniverse news that the rest of us may have missed, and always have promotion for the good doctor in your sig!

So uh...eh mate, IMO it's praise that you've more than earned

Yes, I don't think much is known about our universes Cybermen past the 26th century. Presumably there's more Cyber Nomads out there like those seen in 1975's Revenge of the Cybermen so between the 26th century and what I took to be the 50th or 51st centuries in A Good Man Goes to War lord only knows what happened to make the Cybermen a significant power again.

Ah yes, I forgot about Revenge. Stragglers spending a few millennia (I took the Demons Run sequences to be in the 50th/51st-ish century as well) rebuilding would be more than enough time to build up a new armada.

Only for the Doctor to destroy it all again on a whim

The parallel Cyberman in The Pandorica Opens was certainly different in that it contained more than just the removed brain of a human it contained the remains of an entirely upgraded human.

I found that a little puzzling myself, when we saw that particular Cyberman. I guess in a way though it lines up with what we saw of the conversion process that had been only partially completed on Lisa Hallett in Cyberwoman.

Maybe there was a meeting between the Mondasian Cybermen and the parallel Cybermen and from that their technology and Cyber Conversion techniques took an upgrade?

That'd certainly be an interesting take! I'm not sure how well a story like that would appeal to viewers of the show unfamiliar with Seasons 1-26, but it might be an interesting avenue for a novel or audio drama to explore.

Yes, indeedy. I'm looking forward to seeing where the Silence come in to this story too. Problem is that we'll all forget about it once we see it.

Were they not called Silurians in The Hungry Earth at all? I thought they had been. I have a homo-reptilia action figure from that story and its packaging has it marked up as a Silurian.

If I'm not mistaken, they weren't ever actually called Silurians in The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood. I vaguely remember the word being mentioned as someone he had encountered in the past, but IIRC the dialogue was very particular in identifying them as "homo reptilia" rather than Silurians.

Hardly relevant now though, now that they've been identified as such on screen

And all these pre 2005 cybermen stories kinda confuse me as I havent seen anthing pre 05 of the old Who

Crash course in our universe's Cybermen:

Spoiler:

First of all, forget everything about them coming from Cybus Industries on a parallel universe Earth. The history of our universe's Cybermen (approached chronologically, rather than from the Doctor's POV) runs something like this....

Billions of years ago, Earth had a twin planet called Mondas. It was populated for a time by a race of near-humans. Over an indeterminate (but presumably LONG) length of time, Mondas began to drift away toward the far edge of the solar system. As this went on, the Mondasians began to transform themselves into cyborgs in order to survive. Eventually, such transformations became mandatory and thus were born the Cybermen.

It's never been made clear for how long they drifted in deep space like this, but evidently it was long enough that their entire population was forcibly converted into Cybermen and all emotion was purged as a weakness. At some point during this period, the Cybermen installed a drive system on Mondas in order to move the whole planet like a starship.

In the late 60s/early 70s (UNIT dating controversy), a faction of Cybermen established a base on the dark side of Earth's moon in order to stage an invasion of Earth. They were defeated by the Second Doctor.

With the population of the Cyberman race ever diminishing, they decided to return to the place of their ancestral origin with Mondas--Earth. Their plan was to drain Earth of all its energy in order to fuel their reserves, as well as finding an ample supply of humans for Cyber-conversion. This plot was foiled by the First Doctor in 1986, and in the process, destroyed Mondas completely.

With no homeworld, the Cybermen factionalized into various groups with their own schemes and plots being (of course) defeated by various incarnations of the Doctor over the next five hundred years.

The conflict reached its peak, however, in the 2500s in what became known as the Cyber-wars. The Cybermen had become a military force to be reckoned with in the galaxy. It took the combined efforts of the Earth empire, some galactic allies, and the Doctor to stop them from capturing or destroying Earth. Incidentally, the averting of this final attack by the Cybermen caused their freighter to be thrown back in time 65 million years; the impact causing the dinosaur extinction.

With this final victory over them, the Cybermen were finally defeated. And with the exception of a few straggler groups popping up now and again, largely passed into legend.

[Spimman]

Just watched the awesome episode, what a cliff hanger!!! Although I expected them to stop the episode right before the River Pond revelation, so I was glad they didn't.

I saw a few people call River a human\time lord hybrid but is that true? Evidently Time Lords evolved over millennia of exposure to the Vortex and River was conceived by 2 humans while traveling through the vortex in a shielded TARDIS. So would it be better to say she is a human that has taken one evolutionary step in the direction of the time lords?

[Cold Fuzz]

Brilliant episode, especially Rory's fiery moments. I knew he could fight as he retained all of his memories of being a centurion. I'm glad we actually got a chance to see it. Defending his daughter would definitely bring out the fight in him.

I had seen the previews for a long time, where River says, "He'll rise higher than ever before, and then fall so much further..." I recall a period in my life 4 years ago when I did just that: Achieve things I could never have dreamed possible... and then a short time later fall more than I ever had before. That's a unique and harrowing experience... and Matt Smith got the terrible pain and emotion of it exactly right. Though the episode was brilliant on so many levels, at the same time, God this episode really hurt for me to watch.

Edit: Assuming that the episode takes place after the Byzantium crash on an objective timeline, I find it a little strange that the Clerics have taken a stand against the Doctor when he helped them against the Weeping Angels. Something similar happened with the Atraxi: The Doctor helped them, and then, for some irrational reason, they got pissed at him.

Just watched the awesome episode, what a cliff hanger!!! Although I expected them to stop the episode right before the River Pond revelation, so I was glad they didn't.

I saw a few people call River a human\time lord hybrid but is that true? Evidently Time Lords evolved over millennia of exposure to the Vortex and River was conceived by 2 humans while traveling through the vortex in a shielded TARDIS. So would it be better to say she is a human that has taken one evolutionary step in the direction of the time lords?

I don't know if she took an evolutionary step per se. The Doctor has never had two humans conceive a baby aboard the TARDIS before. In fact, I think the Time Lords have never faced a similar situation in their past.

[rosey_angel]

Oh...my...gah!!!

So, um, holy hannah what the heck was that. I'm so in awe, they did such a great job. I love all of the addition of characters that we might be meeting in the future. I love kick a$$ Rory, like I"m seriously in love, like I got my partner a fez for his birthday and now i"m considering getting him a centurion costume. That's how much I love BadA$$ Rory.
As for the river/melody storyline, I kind of saw it coming, but i did see it coming along with a dozen and a half other possibilities so i can't really call a claim to having seen it coming. i tell you though, when she was showing him the crib my brain went "OMG what is she... his mother no ew, his sister no ew, his childhood friend, what?"

[rosey_angel]

Brilliant episode, especially Rory's fiery moments. I knew he could fight as he retained all of his memories of being a centurion. I'm glad we actually got a chance to see it. Defending his daughter would definitely bring out the fight in him.

I had seen the previews for a long time, where River says, "He'll rise higher than ever before, and then fall so much further..." I recall a period in my life 4 years ago when I did just that: Achieve things I could never have dreamed possible... and then a short time later fall more than I ever had before. That's a unique and harrowing experience... and Matt Smith got the terrible pain and emotion of it exactly right. Though the episode was brilliant on so many levels, at the same time, God this episode really hurt for me to watch.

Edit: Assuming that the episode takes place after the Byzantium crash on an objective timeline, I find it a little strange that the Clerics have taken a stand against the Doctor when he helped them against the Weeping Angels. Something similar happened with the Atraxi: The Doctor helped them, and then, for some irrational reason, they got pissed at him.



I don't know if she took an evolutionary step per se. The Doctor has never had two humans conceive a baby aboard the TARDIS before. In fact, I think the Time Lords have never faced a similar situation in their past.

i watched this ep for a second time a short time ago and I heard something that I missed the first time; when the Doctor and the Siluran (sp?) woman were talking about it the Doctor said that one can't just make a Time Lord, and the Siluran said "you gave them a good head start". my thought is that melody's dna was in flux and the eye patch woman and her scientists messed about with it for the month that they've had her

[Sealurk]

I loved the inclusion of Madame Vastra, even if I did mistakenly think she was a revived and reformed Restac (I heard "angry", "avenge dead sister" and saw Neve McIntosh, so I put two and two together and came up with five), and I must say I love the idea that the Doctor has already had adventures with her off-screen. Anybody else think this is a set up for a series seven/thirty-three/fnarg-plus-two episode with her and Jenny (obviously not that Jenny...right? Makes me wonder why the Moff picked that name) that maybe touches upon or even shows past events with the Doctor first encountering Vastra?

Rory goes from awesome to awesomer to awesomest, and seeing him in action just proves why the Last Centurion became such a powerful mythical figure in the post-Pandorica, pre-reboot universe. He's been one of the most enjoyable and endearing aspects of the Eleventh Doctor's episodes right the way from Eleventh Hour, not least because of his rather considerable development as a character (something I think Amy is actually rather lacking), and he just gets better with each showing. Kudos to the Moff and Arthur Darvill.

Silurians and a Sontaran on the Doctor's side. Excellent. I always thought that the Sontarans being such honour-bound creatures meant that they could also make surprisingly good (if haughty) allies. I particularly loved Commander Strax's heartfelt, genuine, respectful, honourable and ever so slightly scary farewells. I think they summed up the Sontaran mindset quite well.

The Moff's talent for lyrical, poetic naming comes through quite well, though Melody Pond was a tad too obvious. However, Demon's Run was a superb name for a place, only made better by Dorium revealing the reason behind the name. I love that line.

Anybody else wonder if River and Rory briefly talking about two Doctors and that being a whole other birthday is setting up a future episode, perhaps a special episode...perhaps a very special episode in and about November 2013?

Loved it. What it lacked in story it more than made up for in spectacle, brilliant lines and sheer, unadulterated epic atmosphere.

Edit: Assuming that the episode takes place after the Byzantium crash on an objective timeline, I find it a little strange that the Clerics have taken a stand against the Doctor when he helped them against the Weeping Angels. Something similar happened with the Atraxi: The Doctor helped them, and then, for some irrational reason, they got pissed at him.

I wonder if it does take place after the Byzantium - did anybody catch any dates or references to prove/disprove this? Could it be that because of the events of AGMGTW and the Battle of Demon's Run, the Clerics at the time of the Byzantium are much more amenable to and respectful of the Doctor? I.e. he gave them a bloodless but still 'whopping great kick up the backside' and they rather intelligently start playing nice with him? I'm really not sure now. I'll have to watch the episode for a third time...and a fourth, fifth, seventeenth...

[Nth Chevron]

I think they summoned the clerics to the Byzantium to see if the Angels would be any match against the Doctor, an army of Angels and he walked out of the wreckage so they had to try something else.

Thats maybe when they first discovered Amy was his companion

N.C

[Blencathra]

Here's an interesting thing found by someone on LJ.

On 9th January 1995 Steven Moffat wrote this

https://groups.google.com/group/rec....45f05e9b213df9

Here's a particularly stupid theory. If we take "The Doctor" to
be the Doctor's name - even if it is in the form of a title no
doubt meaning something deep and Gallifreyan - perhaps our
earthly use of the word "doctor" meaning healer or wise man is
direct result of the Doctor's multiple interventions in our
history as a healer and wise man. In other words, we got it from
him. This is a very silly idea and I'm consequently rather proud
of it.

So sixteen years later he eventually managed to use it. Amazing!

[MattSilver 3k]

Here's an interesting thing found by someone on LJ.

On 9th January 1995 Steven Moffat wrote this

https://groups.google.com/group/rec....45f05e9b213df9

So sixteen years later he eventually managed to use it. Amazing!

God, that man. Christ. He's what a young storyteller should aspire to be. Brilliant.

Also, you know what else will be brilliant? This year's soundtrack. Rock'n'roll.

[Alan]

Besides your encyclopedic breadth of Who knowledge, we can all count on you regularly posting Whoniverse news that the rest of us may have missed, and always have promotion for the good doctor in your sig!

So uh...eh mate, IMO it's praise that you've more than earned

Thank you. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing and keep rocking and promoting the Whoniverse to the best of my ability.

Ah yes, I forgot about Revenge. Stragglers spending a few millennia (I took the Demons Run sequences to be in the 50th/51st-ish century as well) rebuilding would be more than enough time to build up a new armada.

Only for the Doctor to destroy it all again on a whim

Indeed.

I found that a little puzzling myself, when we saw that particular Cyberman. I guess in a way though it lines up with what we saw of the conversion process that had been only partially completed on Lisa Hallett in Cyberwoman.

Yes. I suppose it also comes down to also how desperate the Cybermen are in need for troops. There may be more Cybermen like the one in The Pandorica Opens with more than just brain matter inside out there but I doubt there's any more variants like Lisa Hallett. I'm sure even Lisa's Cyber Conversion wouldn't have been allowed to leave the upgrade until everything flesh was gone from sight.

That'd certainly be an interesting take! I'm not sure how well a story like that would appeal to viewers of the show unfamiliar with Seasons 1-26, but it might be an interesting avenue for a novel or audio drama to explore.

Perhaps. Or maybe just the viewer's imagination to fill in the blanks?

Heehee.

If I'm not mistaken, they weren't ever actually called Silurians in The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood. I vaguely remember the word being mentioned as someone he had encountered in the past, but IIRC the dialogue was very particular in identifying them as "homo reptilia" rather than Silurians.

Hardly relevant now though, now that they've been identified as such on screen

Just been watching The Hungry Earth and the Doctor does indeed refer to them as Silurians. It happens around 35 minutes in to it. He says:

They're not aliens! They're Earth...liens! Once known as the Silurian race, or, some would argue, Eocenes, or Homo-Reptilia.

[GodAtum]

The ending was great, I did think there where three options: River being the Doctor's wife, mother or daughter.

I'm trying to remember when River first met Amy, did she recognise her?

Also, what about the Doctor's other daughter? Have they forgotton about her?